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sagarmatha
Sep 5, 2002, 12:22 AM
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This happened to me two days back. I was climbing at one of the local indoor gyms. My partner was a young man whom with I had climbed indoor previously without problems. Towards the end of the night, I decide to climb a stiff route, crimpy, small uncomfortable holds, slightly overhanging wall. I rope up, check my partner's belay set up, reckeck my harness and knot, exchange "on belay-climb when ready"," climbing", and I am off. Go up approximately 5 meters (18ft), arms pumping, sweating, I finally peel off. Start to fall, waiting for the hit on the harness that doesn't arrive. Finally, hit the ground with my feet and fall backards, I graze the floor with my back while finally the rope bites in. Sitting on the ground I check my feet and ankles, thank you God nothing is broken or ripped. I look up at the belayer, he looks at me and says " the rope was tight, I don't know what happened". I know what happened. The rope was not tight, as a matter of fact I don't think he pulled an inch of rope through the ATC since I started the climb, as confirmed by my grazing of the floor. I count my blessing at the lack of injuries. The bottom line is, without giving lectures to anyone: when belaying, we really need to focus 100% on the person climbing, full stop. That is No 1 priority - we just have to focus entirely on the task, even if we have done it 1000 times before and we feel cocky or even just confident. We just need one second of disattention to potentially cause grave and lifelong injuries to others. While belaying could be seen by some as a less glamorous aspect of climbing, paying full attention to the climber is the crux of belaying, anything less is a recepy for sorrow.
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john1987
Sep 5, 2002, 1:06 AM
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Yikes thats not cool. I agree with you 100% Safty should always be number one. Make shure that your belayer knows what their doing. I'm glad your okay and thanks for reminding everyone to check and see if your belayer knows what they are doing.
John
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jt512
Sep 5, 2002, 1:58 AM
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I see this all the time in the gym. The climber starts up on TR and the belayer just stands there with a glazed look on his face, not taking up the rope. I'm always wondering what these people are thinking. I guess the answer is "nothing."
-Jay
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jprice
Sep 5, 2002, 2:37 AM
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Talk about my biggest fear, I climb because I'm confident that I will not fall and hurt myself severely. Plus it's vital that belayer's pay attention, maybe it's just my neurotic tendencies but I can't help but stay focused on the climber. You have to always think that their life is in your hands. Be sure to make sure the belayer is paying attention, yell to take up the slack, etc. Plus I do this annoying thing of asking for help all the time but that's because I normally need help...all the time. Good luck.
Climb safe.
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fitz
Sep 5, 2002, 4:29 PM
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Sagarmartha,
Absolutely, the belayer did not do his job. However, even when the belayer is doing his/her job, I think that a climber should commit some attention to the rope.
Devouting some attention to the rope not only double checks the belayer, it helps catch those occassions when obstructed views, rope snags, etc. conspire to fool the belayer.
Again, I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I'm just saying that in more complicated climbing environments, communication is harder and external interference can occur, so climber rope awareness is a good habit to develop.
-jjf
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jt512
Sep 5, 2002, 9:07 PM
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Quote:However, even when the belayer is doing his/her job, I think that a climber should commit some attention to the rope.
A sport climbers perspective: When you are climbing at your limit, you want a belayer who you can trust, and then forget about. If your thought strays to the belayer, you've lost your focus and you're done.
-Jay
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redzit
Sep 5, 2002, 10:01 PM
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Just my two cents, I support fitz and Jt here. The belayer should be 100% dependible, but that is not always the case. When climbing, we always back everything up, anchor points, biners in important places etc... well in this case the belayer is the weak point. This is the only point where one persons actions are not double checked, any other time, say tying in, you are checked by a second set of eyes. Well, obviously the belayer isn't, for this reason, when you can spare it, check up on them. If they are catching some Z's throw your chalk bag at them and have them lower you down. No point in going further if you can't trust you Belayer to act when your 15 feet off the ground.
you may even want to climb in 3s when doing your limit.
Just my thoughts.
K
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fitz
Sep 5, 2002, 10:14 PM
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JT512,
I'm not nec. disagreeing with you. If the goal is to push grade to your absolute limits, then, understandably, more responsibility falls to the belayer.
But, I would recommend two things, first, communicate the increase in responsibility ("Watch Me!"), even if you say it before you leave the deck. With a regular partner, you usually know each other's limits pretty well, but if it is a new partner, give them some warning. Second, avoid this when the belayer does not have a clear view of the climber and the run of the rope.
In other words, if you disappear 130' above my head on a hard trad route, rest assured I'll give you my full attention, but help me out and double check the stuff I can't see...
-jjf
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ctrlaltdel
Sep 5, 2002, 10:39 PM
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After getting flamed in the other post, I'm not sure if I should respond to this one. But here it goes. What I said in the brake hand thread applies here.
The climber must be aware and willing to accept and minimize the risks in climbing. Just because you are on belay does not alleviate you from this responsibility.
That means being aware of the rope for things like snags, too much slack, or if/where you are going to pendulum on a fall. Yes, a good belayer will check for things like that and warn you. But I think it's also the climbers job, because you have a different perspective, and what I'm comfortable with is not necessary what you are comfortable with. Assess the route, holds, rope, and check for back clipping as you climb. Do it in the gym, so you'll do it outside where a belayer may not be able to see you. Also communicate with the belayer. If there is too much slack ask for tension. Yell "watch me" or "at the crux" before pulling hard moves to give the belayer a heads up (I find this helps me more mentally in committing to a move than my belayer who actually pays attention). Sometimes you can't see or hear each other, this is when someone you've been climbing for years will help.
Edit: Fitz, beat me to some of my points... but hey weren't you one of the ones who disagreed with me in the earlier thread?
[ This Message was edited by: ctrlaltdel on 2002-09-05 15:46 ]
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darkside
Sep 5, 2002, 10:49 PM
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Just a thought here, not a judgement because I wasn't there to see but if the belayer wasn't taking any slack in, a loop should have developed from the climbers harness in the process of climbing up. This loop of slack at the climbers end is an indicator of something amiss.
Another possibility is the belayer pulling the rope tight while omitting to feed the slack through the belay devise (pulling the guide rope instead of the brake rope). This would lead the climber to feel they were on belay unless looking at the belayer to see the error.
Try finding a different belayer in future but keep an eye on him in case the problem is repeated with another climber.
For more info on belaying check this topic regarding rope tension with a lead belay.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=15470&forum=23
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sagarmatha
Sep 5, 2002, 11:28 PM
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When I am belaying a climbing partner, I am fully aware of my responsibilities, I take them on with absolute attention, and I make sure my performance is nothing short of 100%, always (I saw broken bones, not pretty). I expect the same from my belayer.
That is one of the beauties of climbing, there is no gray area about who is responsible for what.
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climbitup
Sep 6, 2002, 3:02 PM
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I am definately totally for the belayer tightening the rop eone hundred percent. However, I ussually like to inform the belayer to give me some slack after I get about 15 to 20 feet up. Even with dynamic rope. I like to take the fall and it makes me have to do the approach to the move I missed all over again. BUT THATS AFTER YOU GET INTO THE CLIMB!!
It seems to me that your belayer wasn't on the ball and I would mention to him to tighten the rope the next few times you go up. Good Luck..and CLIMB-IT-UP
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fitz
Sep 6, 2002, 3:53 PM
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CtrlAltDel,
You're viewing in absolutes. In the other thread, I stressed that the brake hand never leaves the line, no matter what (well, maybe if the rope breaks and you try to spot the climber )
In this case, the brake hand was there (seemingly), but the belay system still failed. My point here is that, in general, the system requires communication, and some confirmation. If you call for slack, but forget to call up rope, don't blame the belayer when you take a whipper, etc. And don't expect them to handle things they can't see.
I still think this incident, as described, was inexcusable for the belayer in a toprope, gym environment. But, I also think that communication is too lax at gyms and this leads to trouble in more complex climbing situations. I annoy some folks at the gym, I won't lower you until you tell me you are ready, and I keep the line too tight to untie until you tell me you are off belay.
-jjf
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ctrlaltdel
Sep 6, 2002, 5:26 PM
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fitz,
I just have one absolute view. That is you take some responsibility for your own safety. People play the helpless victim card one too many times. In both cases they got a bad belay, I'm not arguing that fact. But the climber either threw stuff down or wasn't paying attention to the rope themselves. I think they should take some responsibility for that. If the belayer's carabiner isn't locked or harness not doubled back, I think it's much of the climber's fault for not checking. Be proactive about your own safety. You don't do anything to ensure your own safety or contribute to the accident and then blame the belayer. Your still hurt or dead. You got to finger point and blame someone, does that make you feel any better or less dead?
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fitz
Sep 7, 2002, 1:09 AM
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CtrlAltDel,
I didn't mean to insult, and, I've never really meant to disagree. Again, I just felt that brake hand was the most important (but not nec. only) point in the other thread.
In this thread, a non regular partner, and 15' of slack accumulating in a top rope situation, my thinking drifted off topic a little. I thought that pointing out communication, and validation on communication follow through was worth a note, especially since I think it errodes at gyms.
Again, I did not mean to be adversarial or insulting.
-jjf
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billcoe_
Sep 17, 2002, 3:13 AM
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Fitz is right.
As usual....yaawwnnn.
BTW: I show up at the crags and meet up with complete and total strangers all the time. I've learned to take a peek or 2 now and then at their belaying skills. I was on a stiff route in Yosemite when I glanced at the newbie I'd hooked having both hands off the belay rope while he chatted up some young kitten. That was it for him.
If I'm climbing with Bob, Dave or Andrew: we've climbed on and off together for over 20 years and its easy to trust them as they are all supurb technicians. Very skillfull and competent. While Andrew and Dave summited NW Face of 1/2 Dome in Yosemite last week, I hooked up with some young kid that had a body of an Addonis.
Then, after running him panting into the dust I told him I was 48. Kid belayed well and we'll probably go out and do some trad mulit-pitch next weekend as Dave is still sore and Andrew can't go near the poison oak and Bob is still dizzy from a Peru trip.
Bill
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