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edl
Oct 19, 2006, 1:02 AM
Post #251 of 323
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Registered: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 134
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In reply to: Ever been on a 5.11 crack?
Yes, in fact there are a couple around my local crag that I have wired and like to warm up on.
In reply to: Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
Having been to Yosemite and other places and climbed on them, I know what they generally look like. I have heard storys where people purposely nailed the shit out of a crack for the specific intention of freeing it, so what you are saying does have some merit. And I agree it is chipping when that happens, no different than someone chipping holds in otherwise good rock in order to establish face problems/routes.
In reply to: My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
Funny how you generalized that to 5.11 or harder cracks everywhere. If you hadnt been so general with that statement I wouldn't have spoken up in the first place. What you are talking about may be the norm in places like Smith Rock, Yosemite, etc. but it isn't around here, so your statement doesn't hold. Come find out if you wish. All those places I listed are world class cragging destinations in my opinion, so it is definitely worth a trip.
On another note: Just because people in the past made mistakes, it doesn't mean you need to go repeat those same mistakes. So all you chippers out there, don't use examples of poor ethics in climbings history to justify your own poor ethics, or to dodge criticism from others.
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edl
Oct 19, 2006, 1:04 AM
Post #252 of 323
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Registered: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 134
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In reply to: Ever been on a 5.11 crack?
Yes, in fact there are a couple around my local crag that I have wired and like to warm up on.
In reply to: Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
Having been to Yosemite and other places and climbed on them, I know what they generally look like. I have heard storys where people purposely nailed the shit out of a crack for the specific intention of freeing it, so what you are saying does have some merit. And I agree it is chipping when that happens, no different than someone chipping holds in order to establish face problems/routes.
In reply to: My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
Funny how you generalized that to 5.11 or harder cracks everywhere. If you hadnt been so general with that statement I wouldn't have spoken up in the first place. What you are talking about may be the norm in places like Smith Rock, Yosemite, etc. but it isn't around here, so your statement doesn't hold. Come find out if you wish. All those places I listed are world class cragging destinations in my opinion, so it is definitely worth a trip.
On another note: Just because people in the past made mistakes, it doesn't mean you need to go repeat those same mistakes. So all you chippers out there, don't use examples of poor ethics in climbings history to justify your own poor ethics, or to dodge criticism from others.
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iching
Oct 24, 2006, 2:13 PM
Post #253 of 323
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Registered: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: 92
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Chipping is just another form of aid climbing.
Just like pulling on a quick draw.
In Western Oregon we give these routes an Ac designation and don't list the chippers names in the first ascent info.
If you can't climb the rock on it's own terms you don't deserve the credit :!:
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stonefoxgirl
Oct 24, 2006, 2:51 PM
Post #254 of 323
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Registered: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 595
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The answer is no.
1 Do we need a poll on chipping?
NO
2 Do you know what Leave No Trace means?
NO
3 Should you be considered a climber/enviro/conserv?
NO
SICK!
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cgranite
Oct 27, 2006, 12:54 AM
Post #255 of 323
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Registered: Aug 5, 2003
Posts: 366
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In reply to: The answer is no. 1 Do we need a poll on chipping? NO 2 Do you know what Leave No Trace means? NO 3 Should you be considered a climber/enviro/conserv? NO SICK!
1) NEVER
2)NEVER
3)NEVER
And for any other lame excuse for destroying the rock, tainting the rock, or ruining nature...NEVER!
Every piece of rock in the world doesn't need to be climbed. Enjoy them how they are.
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pyrosis
Oct 27, 2006, 2:26 AM
Post #256 of 323
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Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 150
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I think that we should bolt huge plastic jugs onto every piece of rock we can find, especially the Nose! Why let it be reserved for Lynn Hill and Tommie Caldwell? Hell, you could put like three routes on it, all with different color duct tape marking the holds!! That way all the birthday party kiddies from the local gym will be able to climb at it, with a 1000m toprope!
Chipping rock is right on par with pooping on your mom's kitchen floor. IE, you're going straight to hell.
:)
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wallwombat
Oct 27, 2006, 2:52 AM
Post #257 of 323
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Registered: Jun 17, 2003
Posts: 727
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No x 3
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fracture
Oct 27, 2006, 3:23 AM
Post #258 of 323
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
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In reply to: I think that we should bolt huge plastic jugs onto every piece of rock we can find, especially the Nose! Why let it be reserved for Lynn Hill and Tommie Caldwell?
Dude, the free version of the Nose is a chipped route....
:lol:
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mtnfr34k
Oct 27, 2006, 6:46 AM
Post #259 of 323
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Registered: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 184
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Chipping is never acceptable. Never.
NO
NO
NO
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mtnfr34k
Oct 27, 2006, 6:46 AM
Post #260 of 323
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Registered: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 184
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Chipping is never acceptable. Never.
NO
NO
NO
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jonoj
Oct 27, 2006, 7:06 AM
Post #261 of 323
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Registered: Jan 4, 2002
Posts: 140
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NO NO NO........ No brainer!
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fuzzbait
Oct 27, 2006, 9:03 AM
Post #262 of 323
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Registered: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 81
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In reply to: In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Most FAists are 5.12 and up climbers, yet most FAists put up a myriad of moderate routes, which involve precisely the sort of alterations we are discussing. They aren't doing it so that they can climb the routes. They're doing it so that you can. Most First Ascensionists (myself included) are motivated by the adventure of climbing something new. Some FAers are motivated to put up the hardest routes they can find so they gain hardman status. I can't imagine any FAer putting up a 5.11 and then dumbing it down to 5.9 as a public service. That's the silliest bit of nonsense I've read in a long time. :lol: Then you're very naive. -Jay
I thought this to be a very interesting point. First I don't think arrow is naive. I think he misunderstood your post.
I also think your post Jay is right on the money.
Speaking from my, admittedly, limited experience all routes I have developed have been in the 5.9 and 5.10 range. I am a 5.12 climber. I have a few lines I will bolt there shortly that are much harder but as of yet....
Also from that of the people around me most of them are developing routes far below their own climbing abilities. Why? I don't know maybe because of location and the availability of easier climbs. Or maybe route setters want the greater number of people to climb their routes of which there are many more 5.10 climbers than 5.11. I don't know.
Arrow I also cannot see anybody taking a 5.11 route and dumbing it down to a 5.9 that just seems very odd to me. Maybe I have not been around to enough different areas yet though.
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fuzzbait
Oct 27, 2006, 9:20 AM
Post #263 of 323
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Registered: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 81
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In reply to: So... what I am hearing from JT512 and others is that not only was Yaniro right (again), but that he ushred in an era where most new routes are chipped? I've opened routes. Outside of choss pile sport climbing cliffs, Jay, I think you are WAY OVERSTATING your case. I don't really care about chipping at places like Jailhouse. But pretending that is the norm 24/7 across this great land is ludicrous. None of the routes I've established are chipped. None of the routes my friends have established are chipped. None of my closest partners would agree that chipping is acceptable. ALL OF THEM have opened new routes and have been climbing for 20 years plus. So I have to call s--- on the 'most routes are chipped and I'm niave to think otherwise.' BULL s---. You guys who promote chipping as if it were the holy grail... you have signed on to Ray Jardine's philisophy that says it would be preferrable to have a 5.10 free route on El Cap even if that means chipping and glue on holds. I'm not prepared to accept that. I'd say most in Yosemite feel the same way. Maybe its just you SoCal sport climbers who have sold out to the chipping devil. The way you speak of it, ALL route developers down there chip. I don't believe you for a minute, but I feel sorry for the state of SoCal climbing if chisel weilding 'developers' are roaming the Monument looking to Michaelangelo new climbs. What a revolting thought. If you restate it to say, hey, this mostly goes down on choss pile sport cliffs, I think I would understand. But most new trad routes, ut uh, chipping would be an abberation, not the norm. You personally are encouraging chipping, with your highly visible stance. You certainly promote it anyway. DMT
I think this post needs to be brought to light again.
I think DMT said it perfectly and I gave him a trophy for it.
I have developed several of my own routes and been on hand for dozens more and none of these routes, not a single one had any chipping, most definitely not gluing, drilling, whatever kind of alteration you want to call it done to the rock.
Yes there is cleaning of course but it is all done with a plastic bristle brush. No wire ones have I ever seen used. Yes loose rocks and blocks have been taken down to make the route safe and secure but not done to intentionally alter the rock to make it go one grade or another.
I am sure there are lots of chipped lines out there and that they are fun to climb on but I don't see the need. If I can't climb it for the first ascent somebody else surely can.
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swede
Oct 27, 2006, 11:01 AM
Post #264 of 323
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Registered: Dec 1, 2003
Posts: 133
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Never x 3
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6shooter
Oct 27, 2006, 3:18 PM
Post #265 of 323
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Registered: Oct 27, 2006
Posts: 1
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Guess I've heard it all now...
If anyone can convince themselves that chipping rock is OK (anywhere) then you have the imagination to climb in you're garage and think you're on the nose.
Chip a route to you're car go to a movie and leave the rock alone.
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fuzzbait
Oct 28, 2006, 2:08 AM
Post #266 of 323
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Registered: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 81
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In reply to: Around here, the debate is, if a good hold has a sharper than hell edge, wherein you get a mandatory cut (most people most of the time), is it ok to smack it with a nut or a hex and slightly erode the sharpness of the edge? Yes.
Here is another point that is right on the front page that nobody in all 18 pages picked up on. Maybe it is just me but comfortizing equals chipping in my books.
While I can understand where he is coming from I must respectfully disagree with his position on this matter.
The routes I have put up have all been on limestone. Some holds may be considered less than comfortable but it adds to the route. That is what was there so that is what we use.
I went over this in another thread where my partner for one particular route went up to brush a part of the route we just finished bolting. He took out the hammer and started tapping on a ledge. Not smashing down but hard enough. I screamed at him to stop and he stated he was "taking the sharp edge off the hold to make it more comfortable". I quickly dropped him to the ground and wouldn't let him go back up.
If you have a sharp edge (that in no way interferes with the safety of the climber and/or his/her equipment) than you work with it. When climbing you use it delicately and move on.
Eventually rock gets polished after many climbers ascend the route so why speed up this process. Enjoy the route for how it is 'naturally'. If you don't like it move on to the next. Personally I like the sharp edges because I have a tendency to crank on holds instead of feathering them. It forces me to use my feet better.
Anyways for myself and the group of people I know and put up routes with we will never chip, comfortize or modify any route we make. This is how we do things. Everybody has their own way of course this is ours.
(My partner from that particular route learned his lesson after an atomic wedgie. No more comfortizing!)
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metalhead
Oct 28, 2006, 4:27 AM
Post #267 of 323
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Registered: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 108
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1 no
2 mabey, only in cerntant cases
3 no, thats just stupid
if you cant climb it with out chipping then then dont climb that route, let some one better climb it
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tahoeraised
Oct 28, 2006, 4:42 AM
Post #268 of 323
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Registered: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: 5
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NO
NO
NO
Even if you own the rock, thats lame.
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dirko
Oct 28, 2006, 6:51 AM
Post #269 of 323
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Registered: Dec 5, 2002
Posts: 374
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NO
NO
NO
Where do you get your sense of entitlement? Please... just walk away.
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jsarge
Oct 28, 2006, 12:28 PM
Post #270 of 323
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Registered: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 18
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No
No
No
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getsomeethics
Oct 28, 2006, 3:09 PM
Post #271 of 323
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Registered: May 2, 2002
Posts: 313
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1 No
2 No
3 No
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getsomeethics
Oct 28, 2006, 3:10 PM
Post #272 of 323
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Registered: May 2, 2002
Posts: 313
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1 No
2 No
3 No
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ateam
Nov 3, 2006, 10:05 PM
Post #273 of 323
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Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 4
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I'm glad you are so proud of your forum posting skills!
Way to go, El Yea!!!
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andychasteen
Nov 3, 2006, 10:26 PM
Post #274 of 323
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Registered: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 24
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1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
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fluxus
Nov 3, 2006, 10:39 PM
Post #275 of 323
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Registered: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 947
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In reply to: Yes loose rocks and blocks have been taken down to make the route safe and secure but not done to intentionally alter the rock to make it go one grade or another.
Fuzzbait in both your posts I think you may be making a distinction without a difference. But it does get back to the central question of why might chipping be a bad thing? You seems to be saying that altering the rock is o.k. if its done for safety but that's it. The problem here is that cleaning loose blocks alters the rock and how a climb is done just as much as gluing, comfortizing, cleaning out a crack, sculpting a hold etc.
Some climbing areas have such poor rock that many holds and features of a climb could break off under weight. So cleaning for safety is at times the same thing as creating a climb. I've bolted lines in areas like this, and your distinction simply does not apply. It does not really apply anywhere if the main value is leaving the cliff in a natural state. If the main value isn't leaving the cliff in a more natural state then the entire debate consists of various degrees of philosophical contrivance, which makes it hard to really get an answer. Its more intellectually and historically honest to adknowledge the very important role that chipping has played in climbing (for good and bad) than it is to scream at your partner for comfortizing a hold.
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