|
deltav
Feb 14, 2007, 4:52 AM
Post #1 of 18
(2104 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
I am planning on buying my first set of ice gear. What are the favorites among people out there? (brand, model, etc) of boot, axes, crampons, rope, screws, etc)? What length of screw it a good all around? leash or no?
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
brent_e
Feb 14, 2007, 5:11 AM
Post #2 of 18
(2091 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 5111
|
honestly, ALL of this stuff but the screw length is personal preference (maybe double boots over singles is not personal preference but a matter of area or needed warmth for you). You just have to get out and try it and see what feels good to you.
For screws, though, seeing as you're new you're likely going to be climbing fatter ice so 16's and a couple 22's will be good. Later you can get some shorter screws for nasty stuff.
My personal preferences for gear:
Tools. I've swung old DMM Fly's, Trango Mantis (straight and leashless), Fusions and Vipers a bit and for what I do the mantis has been pretty damn good. The pick angle is steep which works sometimes and doesn't other times.
Crampons. My first set were lightfangs by camp (OLD), then DMM Terminators (used in mono and dual), then Petzl Charlet Darts. The darts are my favorite. They have the most finicky and PITA binding (sidelock) but they work and the front point orientation is great for me.
Screws. used BD's, prefer grivels. The 360's don't rack as well, but I like the threads more, i like the handles more (on the Helix AND on the 360), they seem to place better and in tighter spots for me.
Boots. Make sure they fit. Vasque seems to have a wide last. Sportiva seems to have a narrower last. I have wide feet. I used a narrower boot for a bit (Salomon Super mountain 9) and got my feet so cold they were numb for over a month.
Leash or No. I don't think I'll use leashes again. I'm not really experienced on ice and haven't led harder that WI4 or so, but I've had no need for leashes. I am making tethers for my tools, though.
Rope. I like using doubles so i have more things to kick. Using beal and edelrid. I'll have a beal joker paired with a beal cobra II pretty soon. We'll see how they work.
bye the way...BUY SCREAMERS! I've never deployed one, and I hope I never do, but i've heard stories of them saving peoples butts.
Good luck with your choices.
Brent
(This post was edited by brent_e on Feb 14, 2007, 5:13 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
creemore
Feb 14, 2007, 7:01 AM
Post #3 of 18
(2076 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2003
Posts: 61
|
Hey man,
Welcome to the Ice game. Open up the wallet and let it flow....$$$
Seriously if your ready to invest in some gear, get some good stuff. I bet you've investegated a bit in the area you intend to be climbing (mostly) at. What are people racking?
If you already know that and just want opinions, here's mine :)
Tools: If you intend to take them to the mountains on longer climbs and some short days out, get a versatile pair. One that can be used well leashless but can have a leash(Quarks, Vipers, Taakons, Rebels).
Quarks are the best ice rig and really versatile with the pinky rest. Can handle some good mixed. Cliper leash not the greatest. Takes the Android leash well.
The Vipers hand grip felt too skinny for my hands, but the mods on it look good and a lot of climbers swear by them. Some complaints with the Android leash mounted on the Viper from friends. Making them unable to mantle I think it was.
The Taakons are a solid tool and can't go wrong ether. I think they've been having some problems with there picks breaking lately. What ? Grivel breaking picks !!! Just kiding, make up your own mind on that one hehehe.
The rebel is good n' stuff but just didn't feel right in my hand.
Oh, don't forget the Aztarex if you don't plan on getting in to it to much. Maybe add Petzl's grip tape to it?
If you intend to climb short ice affairs, sport mixed climbing and such than go straight up leashless and you won't regret it. Some tethers are good, but don't count on them to save your ass and get rid of them on the nasty overhangs....remember it's a jug your holding on to.
The Nomic's are a great well balanced tool. I can't believe the factory pick that comes with it. For the first time it's well sharpened. Great blade that penetrates ice beautifuly. Adjustable pinky is nice and the tape too. Lack of adze and "hammer" is no big deal on that stuff.
Fusion's have proven themselves but the grip again didn't fit me. Same issue with those Reactor's.
You'll get two pairs one day hehehe
Poons: I started on M10 crampons and still on them, just got some new points and they still rock!!! I really like the Sarken for versatility aspect again. Great mountain/alpine crampon. I've been eyeing those myself.
Never used BD, Grivel n such but just look for an ajustable, non-flexible, combatible front pointing pair. There's alot out there to choose from. Just make sure it can do what you want it to do and that it fits your boot.
Boots: The most important part (and the hardest). Go single (leather or synthetic), rated to about -15/-20 C max. Front and rear whelts are required for steep frontpointing. Less hardware as possible low on the boot helps I find.
Here's the hard part, find one that fits.
Wiggle room for the toes, snug feel, locked down heel. The less heel lift you can get out of the box, then get customs insoles or find Superfeet insoles.
Get plastics later. Unless your going real high soon.
Rack: Wait for the new BD Turbo Express. If you can't wait, get a curent Turbo Express.....just wait ok!
Grivel's are great when it's mitten climbing time and you need that extra dexterity.
Petzl's screw was no good for me with that rotating hanger, great for the second but what about the leader. Makes a good anchor screw with the large clip in point though, but the new Express fixes all that....just wait ok!!!
For length, fill in your partners rack starting with the longest and slowly built yours.
Load limiters are a must. If you feel like you need it, go all out and just use that. If not, just a couple will do great. I learned that wire gates on those help reduce gate flutter during ripping.
Wiregate biners and skinny slings are great in the winter and a good place to shed some weight. No Autolockers in the winter!!! Get an ice screw/tool racking device, maybe two?.
Ropes: Two are the way to go. Choose your system.
The Combo of a skinny lead rope and a double is a good idea. It's give's you alot of options but requires maybe more experience in rope handling to fully exploit. Not saying you don't have that, just saying. You can always tag, but might as well use in the pro, not to mention the chopping n' stuff.
Gaiters, down jacket, helmet and gloves too:)
All set?
Oh wait the pack!
|
|
|
|
|
anykineclimb
Feb 14, 2007, 7:15 AM
Post #4 of 18
(2072 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 3593
|
ha. soem of the best replies I'f seen in a while on rc.
I'll add a bit:
if you can try out a bunch of tools, if not you'll adapt yourself to that tool. of course some tols will just swing better than others. like stated the quark is a great tool. I, like Brent, really like the trango tools also. Think about what you plan to be doinginthe future. if you think you'll be in the mountains go for something suited for more alpine. if you'll only be doing ice cragging then something more, "sporty" would be better.
I think boots are probably THE most important to purchase, so take your time and try on a bunch.
again plan ahead.
|
|
|
|
|
go_dyno
Feb 14, 2007, 8:55 AM
Post #5 of 18
(2060 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 8, 2005
Posts: 193
|
Again, open your wallet and let the mulah pour out! ( LOL)
Soooo true!
When I first started climbing earlier in this aeon, the rock dudes all thought I was so cool because I carred my humble rack to the crag in the brown paper bag I bought the gear in with Austin's Whole Earth Provision logo on the side of the sale sack. My dude-like simplicity was deemed cool, actually I was just too broke after buying the rack to buy a crag pack! Brown paper bag won't work for ice gear.....use Hefty sacks doubled up until you can afford the ice pack
|
|
|
|
|
c4c
Feb 14, 2007, 12:58 PM
Post #6 of 18
(2040 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 1279
|
find an ice festival that is close to you or fly to one that fits your schedule but all of the reps have stuff there that you can demo and see what fits and what you like. Try before you buy!
My favs Quarks, rambo mono poons, BD screws and screamers! a double dry rope 60m, old koflach boots that need replacement. Petzl Ecrin roc helmet!!!
(This post was edited by c4c on Feb 14, 2007, 1:01 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
builttospill
Feb 14, 2007, 1:02 PM
Post #7 of 18
(2037 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
|
don't have too much to add to what others have said except a couple of opinions.
I like leashes. If you'll never be climbing in the mountains, then go for leashless if you want. It depends on waht you're looking to climb. For me, I started leashless and went the other direction because I wanted to climb longer pure ice routes and I'm a weenie.
I like the Quarks. Can't beat them for an all around tool in my mind, especially if you're interested in the stuff I mentioned above. Still plunge well enough to protect you on moderate snow and stuff, but they're good tools. I'd swing a couple, but honestly it's not that big of a deal. If it's your first tool, you WILL get used to whatever you buy. I used straight shaft, ghetto-old Chouinard tools when I first started climbing ice two years ago. I adjusted and got up some WI4 stuff with them. I honestly dont' climb much harder, if at all, with my new tools.
Same deal with crampons....depends on what you want to do with them. For all-around stuff....mountaineering, relatively steep ice, etc etc, I've loved the Grivel G12's. I don't climb mixed and I don't climb STEEP, THIN ice, so your mileage may vary, but they've been great and I beat the shit out of them every time I'm out.
Don't buy screws unless you plan to lead off the bat. Screws are pricey and if you don't need them, you'll be better off waiting and hoping today's models drop in price in a year or two when you want them. Case in point....the BD Turbo's are for sale in some places new for $26 a piece.....they were like $52 two years ago. They got replaced by the Turbo Express.
Anyways, that's all I've got. I agree with leather boots, depending on what you want to do as well. You can get by with less boot than you think often, but then I don't climb in Canada or Alaska, or even Colorado. If you're in a "fairweather" ice climbing venue like Utah, you can get away wtih stuff like the La Sportiva Trango's. I've used a lighter pair than thsoe and been fine, but had cold feet occasionally. Use toe warmers if you want, or just suffer. It's worth the dexterity over plastic boots unless you're a high-altitude type.
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Feb 14, 2007, 2:02 PM
Post #8 of 18
(2021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
OK, more opinions here - get light boots that fit and if they're not warm enough, use chemical heat pads or score some insulated supergaiters off EBay for $30.
Wait on the screws, but then buy Grivels. The only folks who think BDs are the best are those who've never used Grivels. Not that BDs are bad, especially if you score them for <$30 new. Keep them all as sharp as possible.
Mono or dual? It almost doesn't matter. You wouldn't be unhappy if you had both. Or just one.
Try LOTS of tools. Buy high quality because IF you ever want to sell them, you can get a good cash-out. Those discontinued HB Tornados, for example, may be great for you. But if they're not, they'll be worth $30 a piece in a year. Quarks, Vipers, Cobras, some Trangos...these tools are still selling for 300/pr used.
Wear a helmet. Keep your feet wide and your tools above you. Don't step on the rope or stand under someone climbing. Buy your ropegun the first beer afterwards. Take pictures.
|
|
|
|
|
flying_dutchman
Feb 14, 2007, 2:39 PM
Post #9 of 18
(2007 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 708
|
creemore wrote: Rack: Wait for the new BD Turbo Express. If you can't wait, get a curent Turbo Express.....just wait ok!
BD is replacing their latest turbo express screw already? Any idea when? Should try to cash in on the sale me thinks. I've noticed that BD tools are going cheap everywhere (viper, cobra)
|
|
|
|
|
gbmaz
Feb 14, 2007, 4:32 PM
Post #10 of 18
(1977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 95
|
Lots of good advice has been given in this thread so I will just add a bit of humor with this classic rec.climbing newsgroup post:
In reply to: From: Pedro Espina <esp...@erols.com> Subject: Re: Ice Climbing: What is it like? Date: 1999/09/16 To: "Jeffrey S. Boone" <j...@aol.com> Newsgroups: rec.climbing To find out if ice climbing is for you, 1. Ask, read, and loose as much sleep as possible wondering what style of ice gear is right for you. 2. Bring you VISA card to your closest climbing store and spend all of next year's disposable income on equipment that somebody in rec.climbing recommended based on hearsay. 3. Hide the gear at home and try to control the fear that the thought of "your wife finding out that you just spend $3K that you didn't have" will bring to your heart. 4. Using a 10 lbs. frozen sea bass, smash the backside your fingers until you can't hold the frozen carcass any longer. 5. In front of an open refrigerator, strip to your underwear, place 10 or 12 ice cubes around your testicles, poor a gallon of cold water over your head, and repeat "Man... This is f*cking great!". 6. Tie yourself to a massive object just under the balconies of your local retirement home, display a sign that reads "Safe my future... Reduce Social Security benefits now!", and try to survive the barrage of large hurling objects coming your way. 7. Ask your neighbor to tie his Rottweiler with a shoelace at the other side of a 4 foot fence. Smack the dog a couple of times and repeat "If the string breaks, the fence will hold him back... the fence will hold... the fence will hold..." 8. Call-in thick Friday morning. Jump in the car with a couple of guy with questionable personal hygiene and drive for 13 hours strait. Get our of the car, realize that there is no ice to be climbed and return home feeling still exited about the prospects for ice climbing the next weekend. 9. Find out, from your new friends, that half of the gear that you bought in step #2 is really worthless and that "...only 'Posers' buy that stuff". and finally, 10. Over a romantic dinner, tell your wife that she will be on-her-own for Thanksgiving, X-mas, New Year's, Martin Luther King Day, and Presidents' Day, because you will be driving "up-north" with "the guys". If you can satisfy the requirements stated above, ice climbing may be for you. In that case see http://www.erols.com/espina/Climbing/ for some inspiration. Good Luck, Pedro
I have read few things that sum up the exquisitely folly of starting to climb ice when saner, cheaper activities exist. Thank goodness I got my wife into ice climbing early on so that # 10 is not an issue. Hell, we got married at the Ouray Ice Park so going there is a romantic trip for us.
George
PS: As for my gear recommendations, spend the most time on finding single leather boots that fit well. If you do not live near a good shop you will need to spend some time and money ordering boots to try them on and returning the losers. This sucks, but not having your heals lifting in your boots when you frontpoint is priceless. For tools it is 100% what feels best in your hand when you swing it. Crampons I think are less picky, but wait until you buy your boots so that you can be sure they fit together well. Not usually an issue, but it can be.
|
|
|
|
|
creemore
Feb 14, 2007, 5:04 PM
Post #11 of 18
(1943 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2003
Posts: 61
|
I don't know when the new BD screw is comming out but i've seen it at the OR show in Salt lake. Larger teeth, larger coffee grinder and added a hole for a second clip in point on the hanger.
BD tools are gonna look sweet too. New Viper and all. I think it's high pressure water molding there using now.
If your willing to pay for the current screw, go for it cause there gonna be clearing out.
Like stated, the 360 is a great screw just not MY favorite. Except for cold days up here.
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 14, 2007, 5:06 PM
Post #12 of 18
(1941 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
In reply to: If you do not live near a good shop you will need to spend some time and money ordering boots to try them on and returning the losers. This sucks, but not having your heals lifting in your boots when you frontpoint is priceless.
Try Zappos.com, they have boots, and free shipping, BOTH WAYS. So you can try all you want, and not have to worry about paying for return shipping. The selection is not huge (but not bad, either) and its worth checking out.
http://www.zappos.com
Also check Sierra Trading Post. They don't have free shipping like Zappos. But they have mountaineering/ice boots from time to time at smoking closeout prices. I did a search for "mountaineering boots" and they don't have too much right now, but its worth checking from time to time. I got a nice pair of Asolo ice boots for $99 from them.
www.sierratradingpost.com
Right now is a good time to get ice gear on sale. Lots of retailers are starting to clear out the winter stuff. I got my first ice gear at this time of the winter, and got killer deals on boots and tools.
|
|
|
|
|
Dillbag
Feb 14, 2007, 5:45 PM
Post #13 of 18
(1925 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2007
Posts: 93
|
Deltav,
A lot of people have replied with their recommendations for Ice Gear... Just remember that those are their recommendations!
Ice gear is like picking rock shoes, i.e. everyone has a different swing, hand size, boot fit, circulation (warmth requirement)...
The best bet is to figure out where you will be climbing ice the most, I see you are in S.C... Kinda assuming that's not your primary local for ice
Then talk to people in that specific area about gear that they use... Try on all the boots you possibly can! Go to different shops, they don't all stock the same thing... Get boots that you can both hike in and climb vert ice (if that is your goal).
Try out as many tools as you can, not in the shop... but on actual ice. Borrow from friends, ask the party next to you on TR if you can swing their tools... Rent different types! This is important... try them!!! The pick angle, weight, and grip are all very different from tool to tool (even within brands) and everyone will adamently tell you that the tool they use is the best (unless they are saving up cash for a new pair!)
For crampons, try mono's and try double's... see what you like... then try to pick some up on sale!
As far as screws and screamers, you really shouldn't be buying those just yet... Best to get a season or two of following and TRing under your belt before doing any leading on ice as the game is much more serious than rock! Remember people sprain ankles on rock all the time, but the same thing on ice will usually end up as a tib-fib... So take your time and get in some milage before you hop on the sharp end!
So, I guess that is my advice for ice gear...
Now as far as what I think is best!
Quarks, hands down! Awesome!
La Sportival Nepal Extremes (or evos as I think they are called now) great all around leather boot...
Crampons, I've got me some old double point Charlet Moser's I think they are Ice 8's or something like that...
Screws (you'll figure out what you like when you climb with others...) but I like the Grivel 360! Goes in like butter... has a much better "bite" than a BD screw, and the "coffee crank" handle allows for placement in concave spots without any chipping with your tool...
Have fun!
|
|
|
|
|
deltav
Feb 15, 2007, 1:40 AM
Post #14 of 18
(1892 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
Thanks for all the tips guys. Don't usually see this kind of help.
I am mostly looking at climbing up north - Vermont, NH, etc.
Thanks again
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 15, 2007, 1:57 AM
Post #15 of 18
(1888 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I too am an n00b, I started about 3 weeks ago.
I had no budget to start, everything had to be on sale. What I did know is that I am probably MOST interested in hard steep mixed climbing. At 3 weeks, I'm still working the kinks out on ice for now.
Tools? I bought a consignment pair of Grivel Monsters at the local shop for $150. I've been told that they aren't the best tools but they are something to swing. When given the option of nothing or monsters, I'm very happy with my purchase. The more I venture out onto the mixed terrain, the happier I am with them. I've thus far found no fault in the way they climb ice. In my limited experience, they climb better than BD rage and worse than some custom Ti tools my friend has.
Crampons, a used pair of BD's. Again, consignment from the local shop for $55. No idea on the actual brand. I have a friend who had all the parts so I can swap from dual to mono. Currently I'm happiest with dual but will probably go back to mono when I get drytooling.
Boots. I started out with a pair of older La Sportiva that were a little tight. I had backpacked in these years ago. They are step in compatable but aren't really suited. The tightness ended in some very minor frostbite but the doctor says it's not permanent. I'm currently using a pair of used $50 Scarpa Freney's I found on Craigslist. I'm thrilled about how stiff they are, how warm they are, and how well they climb.
For a little money, I'm able to climb all the ice I want and take my time buying more and expensive stuff. What's the point of my post? I guess it's shop around and buy used stuff. And have strong friends so you don't have to lead.
|
|
|
|
|
go_dyno
Feb 15, 2007, 6:42 AM
Post #16 of 18
(1863 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 8, 2005
Posts: 193
|
My current ice gear.
Boots: La Sportiva: Lhotses, Nepal Evo GTX, Trango Plus ( I have narrow feet LS boots work great for me)
Tools: BD Vipers (love them)with fang leashless (getting Androids cuz I'm a puss)
Helmet: Petzl's Ecrin Roc & Elios ( I want a visor, why..see reason for Androids)
Poons: Grivel's G12 & G14 & Charlet Moser S12
Rope: an old Blue Water that needs replacing badly
Pack: old Osprey Backside (too heavy)
You can get by for a good while with anything, except boots that do not fit correctly IMHO.
(This post was edited by go_dyno on Feb 15, 2007, 6:59 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 15, 2007, 2:47 PM
Post #17 of 18
(1843 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
deltav wrote: Thanks for all the tips guys. Don't usually see this kind of help. I am mostly looking at climbing up north - Vermont, NH, etc. Thanks again Rob
Yeah, great advice all around.
If you are going to be climbing up my way (NH and VT) my opinion is to go with dual frontpoints, or pons that can be switched. The temps fluctuate here more than out west, and warm conditins/soft ice is not good for holding monopoints. Between my friends that have owned/tried mono, and forum posts, its seems that many Northeast climbers have kicked the mono trend and gone back to duals. Monos are better in brittle conditions, and mixed climbing (and seem to be the better choice for out west), but for this region, my opinion is that duals are a better all-around choice if you have to pick between the two. Check out the new Grivel Rambo 4. My partner just got them, and they are just awesome. You can change from mono to dual by removing a single bolt.
As other have said, try as many tools as you can, and buy the ones that fit your hand the best and feel the best to swing. Also be careful of any manufacturers besides BD, Petzl and Grivel, as the other brands can be a pain to find spare picks. You don't have to let this be your primary decision point, but keep it in mind and check for pick availability.
Don't bother with screws until you are ready to lead. If you want to supplement a mentor's rack, the 16 cm size if the staple of the rack. 22's are good for ancors, but some people complain that they are too long to rack well (I have no problem w. this). A couple of stuffies (I use 13 cm) round out the rack for those thin conditions. My standard rack is 6-16cm, 2-22cm, and 2-13cm. I add a couple extra for longer climbs, such as long single pitches, and multipitch where you will need 2 screws at each belay. Obviously, this will depend on the situation and how often you protect. A rack of 10 screw will get you through at least 90% of the situations you will encounter.
If you climbing posse does not have a good dry rope (or doubles), that would be a smart purchase. Non-dry ropes, or dry ropes that are worn will absorb water and freeze into unusable cables when the temps drop. Double-dry or Golden Dry (where they dry treat the core in addition to the sheath) is a nice bonus.
|
|
|
|
|
kixx
Feb 16, 2007, 2:33 AM
Post #18 of 18
(1805 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 178
|
If you haven't noticed already ice climbers love gear. They dream about it, kiss it, rub it, go into debt over it, and talk endlessly about the latest greatest Black Viper Monster Quad Super Alpine Mixed, T rated, positive agle thingy.
For the most part this is all opinion, and opinions are hogwash.
There are some engineering and physical properties that are paid little attention that really do matter - pick angle, pick sharpening, boot stiffness, boot flexibility and a handful of others. If you can sift through all this chaffe and nail the few common threads all these opinions have you'll be well on your way to getting what you need to get out there.
In the end you just have to get out there and get after it as hard as you possibly can. If you ever forget this then dig up some pictures of some climber guy in a wool sweater, on cut off straight tools with webbing girth hitched to the head and flat front strap on poons walking up some boogy climb... Solo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
