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microbarn
Jun 8, 2007, 6:43 PM
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I heart CAKE
caughtinside wrote: Well your guidebook collection looks shiny and costly, how much did you pay for your guide to the needles? And how much did you spend on that #6 camalot? Is it you or your partner in this income tax bracket? Now time off for roadtrips, and money for gas, Sometimes to places halfway cross the country! And how much did you pay, for bolts on your F-A, that proves you were there, that you climbed that thing first? How do you afford your rock climbing lifestye? How do you afford your rock climbing lifestyle? How do you afford your rock climbing lifestyle? Ah, tell me! How much did you pay for that fancy 9.6, the one you ruthlessly whipped on at the end of the day? And how much will you pay, for a brand new 9.4, that you'll ruthlessly whip on at the end of another day? And how long will the workers, keep weaving you new ones, As long as they're getting their time on the rocks too and how long will the workers, keep weaving you new ones, As long as they're getting THEIR TIME ON THE ROCKS TOO!! Aging nylon slings, and peeling sticky rubber, scab removal, and car repair bills, Your joints pay dearly now with youthful magic moments But rock on completely with some brand new bong-bongs! How do you afford your rock climbing lifestye? How do you afford your rock climbing lifestyle? How do you afford your rock climbing lifestyle? Sport climbing ain't rebellion You're climbing what they've bolted, Your proud sends won't impress them, Your bouldering posse only disgusts them they're so happy to keep searching for more rocks to play on you're climbing what they've bolted Rock climbing ain't rebellion You're climbing you're climbing you're climbing what they've bolted!
I agree with the rest. I work in order to allow me to do what I want with my free time.
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kachoong
Jun 8, 2007, 6:49 PM
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Very enjoyable post Dingus! It seems you have thought long and hard about what the "lifestyle" means to you and at the same time have captured shared thoughts of others. For everyone it will be different; the subtleties and diverse experiences that climbing has to offer over a lifetime can vary between people and through time. This is, however, and you have explained it well, a somewhat convergent philosophy on what climbing means to the general climber.
For me, I found myself searching for what climbing was and what it meant to me almost immediately, despite only having started at 19. I guess I missed the whole childhood climbing experience, even though I was always drawn to the outdoors from birth, and to this day wonder if this has affected the way I percieve the climbing "lifestyle" compared to others. Throughout my bookshelf I read of the many hardmen and idols that live(d) for climbing... they live to climb or climb to live, but the paradox for me was that many of them still held (mostly) stable jobs or at least skills. This was how I tried to approach the "lifestyle" for around the first six or seven years of climbing, until I realized that all my other non-climbing friends were, in parallel, experiencing the career.... the family.... the morgage.
I needed climbing...funnily enough to keep a stable head. Too much of one thing; repetative, mundane, everday tasks drove me to ditch it... to escape with climbing taking the drivers seat. I also knew though that I needed to break the cycle, because for me, I wanted some stability.... my 20's were almost over and my priorities were beginning to change.
To live from one day to the next in order to fund long climbing trips was over for me towards my late 20's and I had to re-define for myself what climbing meant to me within my life as a whole. I didn't want to be rich or to be a "bigwig" at anything but I wanted to feel important and be able to apply myself to a career. With a lot of travel behind me I was able to persue what I needed for myself and at the same time, for the first time in my adult life, had climbing along for the ride.... taking the passenger seat. I was approaching my life as a weekend climber.... and somehow I enjoyed the thought of it.
Now I can juggle many things and still always have the excitement, anticipation and adventure of climbing flowing through my cells. Having married the perfect woman for me (thanks to climbing), having found a path into the future professionally and also knowing that I have already experienced a lot, keeps me extremely happy and comfortable to have climbing along for the ride.
Climbing will always be a part of me... it's not how or where or how often I use and experience climbing that will define me as a climber or live the climbing lifestyle.... I will always be a climber and that's what matters to me.
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ddt
Jun 8, 2007, 7:14 PM
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camhead wrote: The climbers whom I admire the most are those who treat it as a hobby or avocation– rather than as a profession– and still manage to climb at very high levels. Most people will be able to climb hard if they quit everything and migrate from crag to crag. It is much more difficult to climb hard while balancing out a successful career.
I think people aspire to different goals and "admire" climbers for different reasons. To some, the ability to crank really hard routes is the goal, and the basis for admiration. To others, it may be the courage to leave the security and comforts of a "regular" life behind and pursue climbing full-time (without sponshorship!) Another basis for admiration may be volume... whether it is the sheer level of experience in terms of years, number of routes, first ascents, war stories. Others value and admire variety... all-round experience and accomplishment in different styles, disciplines, environments and conditions.
To me personally, the most admirable climbers are those who remain connected with the most fundamental rewards of climbing... the beauty of the setting, the simplicity of the rock, the aesthetics of the line, the individual challenge, the triumph of the ascent.
The most memorable climbs I've had were with partners who had a passion for these fundamentals. This is what drew me to climbing, and what I aspire to in my "climbing lifestyle".
DDT
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baja_java
Jun 8, 2007, 7:39 PM
Post #54 of 86
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"dingus wrote: I'm sorry for living. Laws knows I've tried to end it all a few times. I can't even do that right. I'm sorry for breathing, sir. May I have another????
hey, no worries. there's this new device some very, very successful people have been working on. it works more like a woodchipper. much easier to use than fumbling hollow tips into revolver chambers, or trying to swallow pills but end up choking to death instead of killing yourself properly. all you'd have to do is go to your nearest Useless No More Plaza and get in line, then, when instructed to, step forward. idiotproof. foolproof. loserproof. cuz on top of all that, once the users become ground up fertilizer, they could be of some good at last, for once in their life
so yeah, let's stop hearing about this great divide between the have's and have not's, now that you know those who have work night and day and around the clock to take care of the rest of you
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dan2see
Jun 9, 2007, 12:48 AM
Post #55 of 86
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dingus wrote: ... I'm sorry for breathing, sir. May I have another????
Never apologize for what you believe in, not even in jest!
A hero is somebody you admire, despite his faults. It's easier to admire dingus, because he has no faults.
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littlehander
Jun 9, 2007, 1:00 AM
Post #56 of 86
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I've been surfing. Not going back to the rock. Condoloences to all those that don't get it.
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stymingersfink
Jun 9, 2007, 1:36 AM
Post #57 of 86
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alpinismo_flujo wrote: if I spent as much time and effort as I do climbing I could be a rich fuck.
time to re-assess your notion of climbing's rewards. I think you might find, as I have, that money isn't the only way to measure riches.
which goes hand in hand with DMT's outlook on life, or so it might sound.
the riches it has provided me in my as-yet short climbing career are worth far more than any amount of money I may have earned were I to exchange the time involved straight across for money.
I pity the man who values money over experience, for they may someday find that they have sold themselves short. Experience goes to a bank that will never accept cash deposits. as when measured against experience cash will generally be found lacking value.
or, to paraphrase cheech and chong:
Experience in times of no money is better than money in times of no experience.
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dan2see
Jun 9, 2007, 2:44 AM
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stymingersfink wrote: ... time to re-assess your notion of climbing's rewards.
Lots of folks have exciting times, at work, recreation, or social. But lots of folks don't know why they do it. Then if ever their behavior doesn't work, they get into any amount of serious trouble.
In other words, you should recognize your own values. That is, the values that are based in your soul, and come out of your heart.
I think it's easy to subscribe to a "climbing lifestyle" because it offers self-challenge, exploration and discovery, and friendship. I use words like "wonderful" to describe a day on the rocks.I dream about the challenges. And I day-dream about the exploration. Plus the outings are twice as much fun when I'm with friends.
Mind you, the "dirtbag" scene isn't easy to maintain. That's right, I spent all last year (2006) on pokey, climbing and hiking on rock and snow, bumming rides, borrowing gear. I did manage to buy a few slings, though! They won't let me collect pokey anymore, so I got a job, so I can rent a car and hike and climb solo when-ever and where-ever I want to. And tomorrow is my day to buy a new climbing harness at MEC (my good one is 15 years old).
(This post was edited by dan2see on Jun 9, 2007, 2:50 AM)
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asclepius
Jun 9, 2007, 6:31 AM
Post #59 of 86
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Dingus, good viewpoints in the OP, but I lean towards Curt's stance.
If I spent 40 hours a week climbing but limited myself on what I climbed, such that I never improved beyond a certain point as a climber, than I would feel at a loss and be frustrated with the lack of personal growth.
Same as my career. Same as my other passions.
But this will only work for one person, me. Because it is what I believe.
JR
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asclepius
Jun 9, 2007, 6:36 AM
Post #60 of 86
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Why can't I surf and climb? Is there not a peaceful coexistance that can be had?
I have to pick one...
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thomasribiere
Jun 9, 2007, 11:54 AM
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Dingus, you personally subscribe to a climbing lifestyle, and there's no way that situation can be denied.
It looks like climbing creates a gravitational force in your existence, while for other folks, climbing would interact differently with other activities. Thus, there's certainly more than one lifestyle.
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dingus
Jun 9, 2007, 3:35 PM
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One day I see climbing as one of the shining lights of my life - the great motivaltional force, the incredible experiences, the bond of partnerships, the amazing places.
On another day I see it as a great ball and chain - the 'easy way out,' the terrible rut, the 'can't teach an old dog...'
I fret that I set poor examples for my children (I do). I worry that I leave my family too often for this gig (I do.) I worry that I might not come back to them one day (a ligit concern, I assure you).
For you straight arrows who have to excel at every thing you do? Salute! I admire your character and your dedication. Obviously it can be done, it has been done and it will be done.
I have kids to get through college. I think we'll manage. My wife and I have been together 27 years. We have a lot of equity in our house and we don't live beyond our means as often as we did in the past.
But in the corporate world? You either fuck the dog or the dog fucks you. To fuck the dog you gotta give 100%. That's a fact. What I mean by this?
I've been through two chapter 11s and a couple of buyouts. I've seen hundreds of people who put considerable portions of their lives into their work summarily screwed. bam. Just like that. The dog fucked em but good. Cannon fodder really. Modern corporate Global America is like that - here today, gone tomorrow.
But there are those who seem to always rise to the top. They end up on the right side of bankruptcies and buyouts. They end up running companies? They fuck the dog.
Why? Because they make it their business to do so. Some people thought I was being critical or superior toward these sorts of successful people and I'm not.
I admire it.
So... there's a gap in my work day. Schedules are met, tasks largely complete. What am I doing? Dreaming about climbing, planning to climb, packing my shit, sneaking out the back door with my bouldering shoes.
I'm not thinking about that asshole VP in Finance and how I'm going to use her as a stepping stone.
its just me, is all. I don't want to run a company. I don't want to rule the world. I don't WANT to be rich.
I have goddamn RABBIT EARS on my TV for fuck's sake! That ought to say a lot (LOSER!!!) right there.
Hah! I got in late last night from a 4 day biz trip to Hawaii. I'll be leaving again later today, headed up to the happy hunting grounds of a nearby pass, to work some FA material with some very close friends of mine.
I cannot wait to see them. They're climbers and they're my friends. ONe of them has saved my life - twice; literally.
DMT
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areyoumydude
Jun 9, 2007, 4:01 PM
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dingus wrote: Do you subscribe to a climbing lifestyle? DMT
Yes, I get my Urban Climber subscription once a month.
(This post was edited by areyoumydude on Jun 9, 2007, 4:02 PM)
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Tree_wrangler
Jun 9, 2007, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: One day I see climbing as one of the shining lights of my life - the great motivaltional force, the incredible experiences, the bond of partnerships, the amazing places. On another day I see it as a great ball and chain - the 'easy way out,' the terrible rut, the 'can't teach an old dog...' I fret that I set poor examples for my children (I do). I worry that I leave my family too often for this gig (I do.) I worry that I might not come back to them one day (a ligit concern, I assure you).
Exactly.
My responsibilities (and simultaneous loves) need me, my bureaucratic job (which has the perk of being paid to work in virtual wilderness, at least some of the time) always needs more....more, and I ccould work more, for more money, for the benefit of my family, but.......
I remember, as a child through my early twenties, every day I woke up, and my life was "all about me"..........Over the last few years, my life has become virtually "all about them", and how I can give my energy to the benefit of my wife, friends, work, and children (they're especially important).....
But people aren't meant to be dullard slaves, even if it is for a greater good. Over time of too much giving, my health declines, and life becomes a series of robotic motions......I forget that I'm lucky to be here. So, climbing is "all about me" It's for nobody else, and because it's such an incredible, aesthetic activity, I get a lot of reward out of a reasonably short experience (compared say, with being a food, tv, or heroin addict). Thus, I come back to my family genuinely refreshed and with renewed appreciation for them and our truly good fortune.
etc.
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dan2see
Jun 9, 2007, 8:37 PM
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dingus wrote: One day I see climbing as one of the shining lights of my life - the great motivaltional force, the incredible experiences, the bond of partnerships, the amazing places.
See? You automatically know that climbing provides a lot of important value for you. Important? how's about vital and crucial.
dingus wrote: On another day I see it as a great ball and chain - the 'easy way out,' the terrible rut, the 'can't teach an old dog...' I fret that I set poor examples for my children (I do). I worry that I leave my family too often for this gig (I do.) I worry that I might not come back to them one day (a ligit concern, I assure you).
Dingus, never apologize for what you believe in. Never never never.
You've got a great core of values, and you know it. Most people don't, and they should apologize just for breathing our air. Your kids love as you are, that's what children do!
On the other hand, your phrases
"easy way out,", "the terrible rut", "old dog", and "I worry that I might not come back to them one day" sounds to me like depression talking. Is that possible? Dingus, be honest, could your posting be depression?
Or maybe you just need a vacation on a Caribean beach with your family?
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notch
Jun 9, 2007, 9:26 PM
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Tree_wrangler wrote: I remember, as a child through my early twenties, every day I woke up, and my life was "all about me"..........Over the last few years, my life has become virtually "all about them", and how I can give my energy to the benefit of my wife, friends, work, and children (they're especially important)..... But people aren't meant to be dullard slaves, even if it is for a greater good. Over time of too much giving, my health declines, and life becomes a series of robotic motions......I forget that I'm lucky to be here. So, climbing is "all about me" It's for nobody else, and because it's such an incredible, aesthetic activity, I get a lot of reward out of a reasonably short experience (compared say, with being a food, tv, or heroin addict). Thus, I come back to my family genuinely refreshed and with renewed appreciation for them and our truly good fortune. etc.
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asclepius
Jun 10, 2007, 3:50 AM
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True, true tree wrangler. "Those that cannot help themselves first, cannot help anyone else."
I guess it comes down to where the fulcrum of one's life is located, and time to time it will shift. But since we all focus on balancing on the beam we don't really know where our fulcrum really lies under our feet.
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drljefe
Jun 10, 2007, 5:41 AM
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too bad there aren't any dirtbags to post- they're all climbing, not 'working' from home or using others in the office as a cheater stone to achieve a higher level of 'success'. Where's Fred Beckey when you need him? Probably out 'freeloading' off some hot chick a 1/4 his age. HE subscribes to the lifestyle. Most of us find a balance after we're road tested. Last time I was in Josh there were no dirtbags left. Chongo and Tucker were not there to scrounge the ciggy butts from my firepit. Have they subscribed to a new and more successful lifestyle? Or were they hitching to Palm Desert to score a bag for someone so they could pinch? (Sorry for the counterculture slang, all you desk jockeys.) Those guys subscribed! Dale Bard, yep. Could you live on brewers yeast? What would your department head think? Just climb, don't subscribe.
If anyone asked me if i subscribed to the surfing lifestyle, I'd wax their windshield "BEAT IT KOOK!" (That's 'noobs' to all you)
This post is dedicated to the rock. If it weren't for the rock we'd all be surfers.
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curt
Jun 10, 2007, 6:02 AM
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dingus wrote: curt wrote: dingus wrote: ...It was my contention (still is as a matter of fact) that to be very successful in the business world, to be a CEO or a president of a big company, to rise to those sorts of positions, one must BE that professional 24/7. You have to live, breathe and work the angles all the time. Nothing escapes inclusion either... what's the point of a golf game or a cocktail party unless some deals can be moved down the field at the same time? Well, I just happen to know a few people who have managed to become "very successful" in business--and still rise to the very top of the climbing world. How about that? Perhaps it isn't such a clear cut either/or choice of lifestyle after all. Still, I can appreciate what yer sayin'... Curt Clearly you're the better man in every way curt. I'm sorry for living. Laws knows I've tried to end it all a few times. I can't even do that right. I'm sorry for breathing, sir. May I have another???? DMT
Hmmmm.... What an odd and totally off-point reply.
Curt
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curt
Jun 10, 2007, 6:11 AM
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camhead wrote: The climbers whom I admire the most are those who treat it as a hobby or avocation– rather than as a profession– and still manage to climb at very high levels. Most people will be able to climb hard if they quit everything and migrate from crag to crag. It is much more difficult to climb hard while balancing out a successful career. Props to John Gill, John Stannard, Mike Anderson, Bill Ramsey, and that old bald guy Curt.
Thanks. I would also add to that list Richard Goldstone, Steve Wunsch, Hans Kraus, Jim McCarthy, Kerwin Klein and a host of others.
Curt
(This post was edited by curt on Jun 10, 2007, 6:15 AM)
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healyje
Jun 10, 2007, 10:47 AM
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Hmmm....
Lifestyle? I know what you're referring to here Dingus, just trying to sort out what I actually think of how climbing has threaded through my life in some expressible way.
First off, my parents said I was climbing before walking and I was always up in trees and on buildings as a kid in suburban Chicago. I didn't get on rock until my return from Vietnam and then, as a photographer, it was basically free soloing to take pictures of plants growing in pockets not even thinking about it as climbing. It wasn't too long before I ran into climbers and did get into it, though. My point being, climbing or not was never really a conscious "choice" I made so much as a an odd, almost genetic compulsion I couldn't avoid.
Once I did start to deliberately climb, I did try to insure I could devote myself to it as much as possible. But after awhile it wasn't enough either. Call it ADD or whatever, but just like photography before it, I found it boringly limiting and unsatifying in terms of my potential for learning new things. That's just my personality, I guess, as I've been through tree work, roofing, microbiology, photography, animation, architecture, horticulture, teaching, and software engineering - the only thing that has stuck is learning.
I did settle on doing software and have for several decades now, but even its hold on my interest has been tenuous at best. And while climbing has definitely been an on-and-off thing, it does keep coming back around and I suspect it always will. And I suppose I don't really identify myself as a 'climber', or with a 'climbing lifestyle', because climbing has always been such a fundamental given in my life. And while it is just one thread of many along with family, work, and other interests - it is a strong thread and one that can operate at profound levels of need to express myself in that way.
And I admire folks like Curt, Ken Duncan, Steve Wunch, and other great climbers who found success in the business world. Some folks have the social skills and razor focus to get from point A to point B in the world that way and I suspect climbing is just another facet of them that way. I'm clearly not one of those, but like Dingus have no complaints about not traveling that road. And for me in the end it's never mattered - rich or poor - I'd still have to climb something sooner or later.
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builttospill
Jun 11, 2007, 9:47 AM
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drljefe wrote: too bad there aren't any dirtbags to post- they're all climbing, not 'working' from home or using others in the office as a cheater stone to achieve a higher level of 'success'. Where's Fred Beckey when you need him? Probably out 'freeloading' off some hot chick a 1/4 his age. HE subscribes to the lifestyle. Most of us find a balance after we're road tested. Last time I was in Josh there were no dirtbags left. Chongo and Tucker were not there to scrounge the ciggy butts from my firepit. Have they subscribed to a new and more successful lifestyle? Or were they hitching to Palm Desert to score a bag for someone so they could pinch? (Sorry for the counterculture slang, all you desk jockeys.) Those guys subscribed! Dale Bard, yep. Could you live on brewers yeast? What would your department head think? Just climb, don't subscribe. If anyone asked me if i subscribed to the surfing lifestyle, I'd wax their windshield "BEAT IT KOOK!" (That's 'noobs' to all you) This post is dedicated to the rock. If it weren't for the rock we'd all be surfers.
Ah yes, because you have to be a dirtbag climber to know what "pinch" means and even to have done it a few times. Give me a break man....
I find it amusing when people assert that the language they use is evidence of their belonging in a group, subscribing to a certain lifestyle, whatever.
Anybody can look up what "pinching," "swag," "chronic," etc mean but it doesn't make them a dealer or even an occasional partaker. Anybody can look up what "187," "chrome" or "cristal" is, but it doesn't make them a gangster.
Moreover, Dingus only briefly mentioned the term "dirtbag" in his post and never claimed to be one. Nor has anyone else really.
A climbing lifestyle is different from a dirtbag lifestyle or the lifestyle of a dirtbag climber. Let's not confuse things here, mkay?
That said, and not to psychoanalyze, dingus's post seems to indicate more along the lines of anxiety than depression, or perhaps a nice healthy mix. That's something I can relate to quite well, but it doesn't seem like a HUGE deal. Just figure it's a man reassessing his priorities and occasionally wondering why he does what he does. I'd posit that it's a healthy thing to do, even if it may make one unhappy from time to time (or all the time in spells).
Good luck with the introspection Dingus, if that is what's going on.
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drljefe
Jun 11, 2007, 5:29 PM
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Thanks for responding builttospill. First of all I never asserted that you had to be a dirtbag to know what 'pinch' means- you have to be a boulderer! And whatis this 'chronic' you speak of? To me it is that pain in my wrist that wont go away, and the 'swag'? I thought it was 'shwag'. 'Cristals' are for 'pinching' and 'chrome' is the stuff on the bumper of my '87 thats wearing off.
Back to dingus' post. He was pondering if, because he wasn't a dirtbag(most overused term), was he a 'real' climber and did he really 'subscribe' to the 'lifestyle'? That is what got this discussion going, and going and going. Of course you don't have to be a freeloader to be a real climber. You can be a weekend warrior or any thing you want to be. Climbing is about freedom and individuality. The climbing world has changed so much throughout the years- from an entirely fringe pursuit where reverence for the natural world was central, to whatever many factions it has morphed into today. The advent of gyms meant we now have people who are incredibly strong who may ony climb outside once in a while, and to who 5.12 is not hard. Do they subscribe to the climbing lifestyle? If they love climbing then, yes. But I would have to say that 'climbing lifestyle' is a term as varied as the many different kinds of climbing and climbers.
I, like dingus, sometimes wonder about my place in the scheme of things. I spent many years with one sole pursuit- rock climbing. I molded my life around it and was fortunate to live in a place where rock and weather were nice and plentiful. I worked my way through the grades and different disciplines. I taught people how to climb. I travelled extensively to climb. I lived out of a van. All I did was climb- for business and pleasure. Then...I burnt out(don't worry, this is not another counterculture term, but one even all the businessmen could relate to). I remember the exact moment. While hangdogging in a cave, i was spending every bit of mental and physical focus on one tiny, chalked up piece of rock, when behind me was an awe inspiring view of mouintains and sky. It was at that moment that I had my epiphany about balance in life. I promptly quit climbing alltogether(balance?) to pursue surfing-another addicting, all-encompassing pursuit/lifestlyle. I have relived that sole purpose thing and, once again, am on the verge of burnout. What to do? I am once again, after 10 years, subsrcibing to the climbing lifestyle, as evidenced by my being on this website. I was still a climber during that 10 yr hiatus, and I'll still consider myself a surfer when I find myself on a windswept ridge or hideous sit down start.
I guess subscribing is such a personal thing, and we all wonder about responsibilities and balance and maturing as humans. Just be who you are and trust that your love for climbing is what subscribes you to the lifestyle- not how many nights you eluded the ranger, how hard you pull, or how long you've been on the road, although those are definite indications that you do, infact, subscribe to the climbing lifestyle! Peace, and I think I'll go get barreled before i go up to Taquitz. PS- FRED RULES
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dingus
Jun 11, 2007, 5:34 PM
Post #75 of 86
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
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Nah. I know my place. Not wondering too much. Was trying to splain, s'all, the meaning of the term lifestyle.
As I said pereviously, my buddy and I talked a lot about this subject. Then we theorized what our discussion must sound like to an outsider:
"You Californians and your fucking LIFESTYLES - give it a rest!!!111"
Hah!
DMT
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