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majid_sabet
Jun 26, 2007, 8:06 PM
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Valarc wrote: Here's a novel thought - if you're lead climbing and no one experienced is available to belay you - don't climb A new climber shouldn't be belaying someone on sport lead, let alone trad. Let someone belay on toprope until they've developed a rock-solid habit of locking off as a matter of instinct, no matter what device they use, before you get on the sharp end. Your life is too valuable to put it in the hands of someone who might make a stupid mistake, regardless of the widgets and gadgets you give them.
Please do not tell n00bs they should not use this or that cause they are using this and that and they keep dropping leaders left and right.
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paulraphael
Jun 26, 2007, 8:18 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Valarc wrote: Here's a novel thought - if you're lead climbing and no one experienced is available to belay you - don't climb A new climber shouldn't be belaying someone on sport lead, let alone trad. Let someone belay on toprope until they've developed a rock-solid habit of locking off as a matter of instinct, no matter what device they use, before you get on the sharp end. Your life is too valuable to put it in the hands of someone who might make a stupid mistake, regardless of the widgets and gadgets you give them. Please do not tell n00bs they should not use this or that cause they are using this and that and they keep dropping leaders left and right.
That's not what he said. He said don't trust your life to someone who hasn't had adequate training to belay you, regardless of the device they're using. Sounds smart to me.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 26, 2007, 8:39 PM
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If you are climbing with someone who doesn't fully understand the ramifications of belaying, it doesn't matter a whip what belay device they are using, because you should consider yourself to be climbing with no belay and act accordingly.
I'm seeing people all the time teaching people "on the job" how to belay, clean gear, tie in, and all other aspects of climbing. Being taught by people who don't have the experience/ability to be clear in direction, nor to insure their own ability to free solo. WTF???
By the time a person has roped in and is belaying for real, they should fully understand the concept and responsibility. Until then, they shouldn't be belaying, and it's the climber's fault who puts someone in that predicament, if something goes wrong.
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AZrockclimber1988
Jun 26, 2007, 9:07 PM
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I think that everyone needs to learn tube device if you plan to climb outdoors. What happens if you put the auto-locking device on backwards? Then it becomes a tube device when it is time to lower. Which I see the tube device is the best for anything, certianly cragging. Which the only thing I would want a auto-locking device for is multipitch, when you may come across a problem with the rope and need two hands to fix it.
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psprings
Jun 26, 2007, 9:29 PM
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cracklover wrote: psprings wrote: Definately a true statement. The question is: do we assume that however much experience a climber has, that they will never let go of the brake end of the rope? Well, as a matter of fact, I think experience has a lot to do with it.
Of course it does. People that are experienced in correct use of either device don't have any problem with either of them. I think that's the point that some other people are making... if you use it right, you won't have a problem, regardless of device.
But the experience that I'm talking about is in a different dimension. Everyone, regardless of how long they've been climbing, is never 100% totally focused on their climber, zones out while paying out rope, are totally worn down after a full day of climbing, dehydrated, threads the rope through the atc and clips off the keeper loop only... people make those sort of mistakes... fortunately it happens less to those people that have years of correct use and "biofeedback loops" developed as you mention.
But all of those variables are regardless of device. It takes proper training to use it properly, of course.
If you think that most grigri users belay incorrectly in your area... gee, I guess I wouldn't let them belay me. I still check every belayer out when I rope in with them for the first time. Period. I guess I'd disagree about what users belay incorrectly more of the time... atc vs grigri users... but maybe that's another topic, and maybe it's region specific??
I think your point is that a majority of people don't belay correctly with a grigri. The question to you would then be, if could belay correctly with a grigri and an atc, will one device offer a safety advantage to you? That's what I think the real question is underlying this whole debate, at least for me. If I want to maximize my safety or my partners safety when climbing, does one of these device cover more "incident" cases than the other?
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Valarc
Jun 26, 2007, 9:35 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Please do not tell n00bs they should not use this or that cause they are using this and that and they keep dropping leaders left and right.
WTF does this have to do with my statement that you shouldn't be climbing on lead with a new belayer? Maybe you should open up MS paint and make me a drawing to better illustrate your point.
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skidawg
Jun 26, 2007, 9:36 PM
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Don't know if it's been said already, but here's my two bits. I have a reverso and a grigri. Starting someone out on the grigri is ok if you're just showing them what climbing is like, but I think it encourages bad habits. The belayer starts to get to secure with the auto-lock, then they don't pay as close attention as they should and sometimes take their hand off...then when you switch to an ATC, the sloppy habits can lead to serious consequences. Like said, the grigri also does NOT lock on lowing the climber. To sum it up, grigri might be a little safer for the complete newbie belayer that knows nothing, but I think it encourages bad habits.
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scotchie
Jun 26, 2007, 9:37 PM
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cracklover wrote: sausalito wrote: In short though it is kind of illogical to just assume bad teaching with a device like a grigri. Open your eyes. It's going on all around you. The gri-gri is damned by its own success. GO
I've started to see gymbies taking their hand off the rope to point at holds, both at my local gym and when travelling. I have no idea who's teaching these people to belay.
Climbers and gym employees beware. These people could be learning bad belaying in some other state, then coming to your local gym or crag.
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majid_sabet
Jun 26, 2007, 9:41 PM
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I just reply to last post and I did not pick up on your statement .
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 26, 2007, 10:03 PM)
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psprings
Jun 26, 2007, 10:02 PM
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LMAO... that is a RAD answer!
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psprings
Jun 26, 2007, 10:05 PM
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I mean, seriously, have any of you guys seen such a funny reply? And the picture cracks me up! This whole thing is hysterical! This one should seriously go in the "best responses or RC.com" or something, along with the MS Paint taunt... ROFL!
Edit: Aww, don't delete that picture, Majid, it was priceless! Repost, repost!
(This post was edited by psprings on Jun 26, 2007, 10:06 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jun 26, 2007, 11:11 PM
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for you peter
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
Shot at 2007-06-26
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cracklover
Jun 27, 2007, 12:22 AM
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psprings wrote: I think your point is that a majority of people don't belay correctly with a grigri.
In part, yes, though you seem to have missed most of my point.
In reply to: The question to you would then be, if could belay correctly with a grigri and an atc, will one device offer a safety advantage to you? That's what I think the real question is underlying this whole debate, at least for me. If I want to maximize my safety or my partners safety when climbing, does one of these device cover more "incident" cases than the other?
Well that's clearly got nothing to do with this thread, which is about autolockers versus tube style devices in the hands of noobs. You're presupposing that noobs "if could belay correctly with a grigri and an atc"? That's a ridiculous assumption.
But okay, let's say that I could guarantee that the noob was belaying absolutely perfectly, flawlessly. In that case, I would prefer to be belayed with a gri gri on sport climbs and aid climbs, and a tube device on trad climbs. I don't see how that's particularly relevant to anything at all, though.
GO
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patto
Jun 27, 2007, 1:11 AM
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Gri-Gri are only dangerous in the hands of noobs who believe they are not noobs.
If operated correctly they are virtually foolproof.
The only likely mode of failure to catch with the gri-gri happens when the user is messing with the camming operation. Teach a user to NEVER touch the device while belaying and you should be fine.
A tube type belay device relies on the ability of the user to catch and hold a fall properly. Failure to lock off or inattention is a killer, literally.
I've led complete beginners who have never even top roped before. In this case I either give them a gri-gri or have a backup belayer.
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dazed
Jun 27, 2007, 1:28 AM
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overlord wrote: well, the best thing for a noob is an atc (or similar non-lockinb/blocking device) and training. auto lockers/blockers and little training tend to result in bad belaying.
QFT. The ATC forces the belayer to pay more attention. With an ATC, the belayer knows that if they do not pay attention, the climber will deck. Although the same is true with a grigri, there is an increased margin for error, which leads to an inattentive belayer.
This being said, I would far rather eliminate the noob than trust him regardless of the device. When I am in the gym I have far more confidence that I can use a grigri safely for self belay over 95% of the people I see belaying others in the gym.
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rocknice2
Jun 27, 2007, 1:33 AM
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I don't make it a habit of having nOObs belay me but I have on occasion done just that.
In my mind I was soloing [with some security]. I made sure I used a rope that feeds freely, not an old rope that's swollen to 15 and not a shiny 9.2 but a nice 10 or 10.2. I showed them if they slowly fed the rope and kept the rope infront of the GG that it would feed easily. Taught them never to let go of the brake hand. To not squeeze the device. If it locks up pull back and feed out again slowly. I never let them lower me.
The most important part was me. When clipping I would pull up very slowly.
It's basically like achoring an autolocker to a tree and then climbing. If the belayer does nothing your relatively safe. He's just there to make it a bit more safe. Unless they are taught advanced techniques like pinching the cam to pay out slack. Now your just asking for trouble in the hands of a nOOb.
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j_ung
Jun 27, 2007, 2:53 AM
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Valarc wrote: Here's a novel thought - if you're lead climbing and no one experienced is available to belay you - don't climb A new climber shouldn't be belaying someone on sport lead, let alone trad. Let someone belay on toprope until they've developed a rock-solid habit of locking off as a matter of instinct, no matter what device they use, before you get on the sharp end. Your life is too valuable to put it in the hands of someone who might make a stupid mistake, regardless of the widgets and gadgets you give them.
YES. Well said!
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j_ung
Jun 27, 2007, 2:59 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Valarc wrote: Here's a novel thought - if you're lead climbing and no one experienced is available to belay you - don't climb A new climber shouldn't be belaying someone on sport lead, let alone trad. Let someone belay on toprope until they've developed a rock-solid habit of locking off as a matter of instinct, no matter what device they use, before you get on the sharp end. Your life is too valuable to put it in the hands of someone who might make a stupid mistake, regardless of the widgets and gadgets you give them. Please do not tell n00bs they should not use this or that cause they are using this and that and they keep dropping leaders left and right.
Majid, please have somebody help you interpret other peoples' posts.
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rocknice2
Jun 27, 2007, 3:08 AM
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j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Valarc wrote: Here's a novel thought - if you're lead climbing and no one experienced is available to belay you - don't climb A new climber shouldn't be belaying someone on sport lead, let alone trad. Let someone belay on toprope until they've developed a rock-solid habit of locking off as a matter of instinct, no matter what device they use, before you get on the sharp end. Your life is too valuable to put it in the hands of someone who might make a stupid mistake, regardless of the widgets and gadgets you give them. Please do not tell n00bs they should not use this or that cause they are using this and that and they keep dropping leaders left and right. Majid, please have somebody help you interpret other peoples' posts.
j_ung
telling n00bs they should not use this or that cause they are using this and that and they keep dropping leaders left and right.
Is Majid's raison d'etre on this forum. He's just concerned that others may be replacing him.
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sausalito
Jun 27, 2007, 3:20 AM
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It doesnt happen with folks that are belaying me and like I said the only accidents that I have heard of or witnessed first hand involving a grigri have been lowering accidents. In the past year though I can think of about 3 or 4 decks that I have heard of at single pitch sport areas where the device in use was a tube style device.
That being said I think they are equally safe. You are retarded if you think the grigri design is so complex that there is just no way a person could understand and use it properly. The flaw is in the teacher at that point.
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sausalito
Jun 27, 2007, 3:44 AM
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I guess since I have climbed with a more limited amount of people maybe I have been lucky. I say this because I have never witnessed someone paying more attention when they were belaying with a tube style device. People still make mistakes. Its that simple. If Skinner and Hill can make mistakes anyone can.
the cam action in a grigri does not theoretically provide assistance in locking off it really provides assistance. It seems the ATC argument hinges on theoretical intangibles like "well people that use an ATC pay more attention." Thats bullshit.
The same argument could be made that a new belayer using a tube style device could cause so much stress that they would move past their threshold and the anxiety of "doing it right" would start to have negative effects on their belaying performace..... this phenomena is described under Seyles General Adaptation Syndrome which basically says peak performance occurs at a specific stress level.
Its no wonder with such narrow minds people get dropped. Both devices work as they should when operated properly. It is completely realistic to think a person with average intelligence could easily understand both devices within 2 hours and within a full day could be comfortable using the device. All that being said if you do not consider lowering into the equation I am not sure how a grigri is not a safer device.
The question should have been posed even simplier. If the girl that dropped the guy at NRG this weekend had a properly threaded grigri instead of an ATC when that guy fell would he be in the hospital. I will go on record saying it would be less likely.
BUt I really dont care. 99% of the time I am climbing its with one of three people... two use reversos and one of the dudes uses plates with some mank looking cord. But when I go to the sport crag and I am with someone I know from just around town I usually like to see them bust out a grigri. I always make sure it is threaded properly and I lower myself so the biggest areas for malfunction is avoided.
But it really doesnt matter. Belaying is not hard. Whatever the device it is not hard. Actually there is some crazy autolocking device that wildcountry put out a few years ago. That device is hard to use. All the other ones are pretty darn easy.
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overlord
Jun 27, 2007, 8:29 AM
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sausalito wrote: I guess since I have climbed with a more limited amount of people maybe I have been lucky. I say this because I have never witnessed someone paying more attention when they were belaying with a tube style device. People still make mistakes. Its that simple. If Skinner and Hill can make mistakes anyone can. the cam action in a grigri does not theoretically provide assistance in locking off it really provides assistance. It seems the ATC argument hinges on theoretical intangibles like "well people that use an ATC pay more attention." Thats bullshit. The same argument could be made that a new belayer using a tube style device could cause so much stress that they would move past their threshold and the anxiety of "doing it right" would start to have negative effects on their belaying performace..... this phenomena is described under Seyles General Adaptation Syndrome which basically says peak performance occurs at a specific stress level. Its no wonder with such narrow minds people get dropped. Both devices work as they should when operated properly. It is completely realistic to think a person with average intelligence could easily understand both devices within 2 hours and within a full day could be comfortable using the device. All that being said if you do not consider lowering into the equation I am not sure how a grigri is not a safer device. The question should have been posed even simplier. If the girl that dropped the guy at NRG this weekend had a properly threaded grigri instead of an ATC when that guy fell would he be in the hospital. I will go on record saying it would be less likely.
well, you must have been lucky because i have seen some really poor belaying by belayers that learned to belay with a grigri. exactly because they just assume the cam will catch the leader. and im not talking shortroping here. im talking copious amount of slack out (enough for the leader to deck), not paying attention to the leader (talking with buddies, looking aroud) etc.
thats the problem with a grigri. you can tell a noob that he has to pay attention to the leader, but if the device works without that, chances are he wont. if you put a tube style device in their hands, they MUST pay attention because they know that if they screw up the leader is in a world of hurt. and with proper training an ATC is just as safe as a grigri. plus, using it is a bit easier. yes, you need to lock off to catch a fall, but you dont need to worry about the cam engaging when feeding slack AND you can also teach the noob to never let go of the brake end (which is hard with a grigri because you sometimes HAVE to take the hand off the break end to feed slack quickly) and later, when they progress to a grigri, theyll keep the brake hand where it belongs most of the time.
offcourse you can train a noob properly with a grigri, but so far i have yet to meet one that is a good belayer and has begun with a grigri whule most of belayers that started off with a non-locker retain their good habits when using a grigri. there just isnt any substitute for proper training and training with an ATC in my experience yields much better results.
that being said, if i was to climb alone with a noob just once and with minimal training (and without belaying training in mind), i would give them a grigri and try not to fall. but if i were to teach proper belaying, i would use a non-locker and have someone experienced supervise the belayer, preferably with a backup at least for the first few climbs (when youre somewhat comfortable with them catchin a fall, you can remove the backup, but the supervision has to stay). you cannot really teach belaying if theres just two of you, you need someone on the ground to provide instruction when needed (yes, you can tell the noob what to do before you leave the ground, but chances are theyll forget it when a crisis arises) and pay close attention to the noobs actions.
(This post was edited by overlord on Jun 27, 2007, 8:32 AM)
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cantbuymefriends
Jun 27, 2007, 11:42 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Continuing from my recent post in I&A about a climber who fell 40+ feet .His newly belayer was using an ATC but somehow, he/she was unable to catch the rope. Should n00bs use autolocking belay ( like Gri Gri)when belaying a trad climber or use a tube type ( like ATC) ?
Just by coincidence there's a parallell thread here http://www.rockclimbing.com/...2;page=unread#unread about someone who was dropped in a gym during lowering after a TR climb. That accident could have been prevented if the belayer had used both hands for braking, and IMHO what the GriGri does best is that it's very effectively preventing the belayer to use both hands on the braking strand of the rope for a smooth and surprise-free braking/lowering action.
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overlord
Jun 27, 2007, 12:31 PM
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cantbuymefriends wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Continuing from my recent post in I&A about a climber who fell 40+ feet .His newly belayer was using an ATC but somehow, he/she was unable to catch the rope. Should n00bs use autolocking belay ( like Gri Gri)when belaying a trad climber or use a tube type ( like ATC) ? Just by coincidence there's a parallell thread here http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1620142 about someone who was dropped in a gym during lowering after a TR climb. That accident could have been prevented if the belayer had used both hands for braking, and IMHO what the GriGri does best is that it's very effectively preventing the belayer to use both hands on the braking strand of the rope for a smooth and surprise-free braking/lowering action.
that is obvious.
but what is more important, it is preventing them from learning hands-on to always keep one hand on the break end when belaying and both hands when lowering when using a non-locking device.
and that skill is IMHO one of the most important skills that a climber has to learn. even if you belay with a grigri 'almost 100% of the time', there WILL be occasions when you wont have one (droped it, forgot at the car, whatever) and then youll have to belay with something else, an atc if you or your partner have a backup device, munter if you do not. and if grigri is the only device youre used to, youre in a pretty big danger of screwing something up.
on a sidenote, everyone should also learn how to use a munter properly. as opposed to an atc and most other devices, it has most friction when rope strands are parallel. not that you need to teach an absolute noob about it, but if youre planning on raising a proper, safe climber, it should be on the curriculum after mastering the atc.
(This post was edited by overlord on Jun 27, 2007, 12:32 PM)
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coastal_climber
Jun 27, 2007, 4:44 PM
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psprings wrote: coastal_climber wrote: It's the user's error, not the fact which belay device is being used. If the belayer is properly trained, then there is no excuse for error. >Cam Definately a true statement. The question is: do we assume that however much experience a climber has, that they will never let go of the brake end of the rope? I think it's inevitable that regardless or level of experience, people make mistakes. The question would be, in light of those mistakes, does choice of device make a difference to compensate for that moment of error/incompetence? I remember a story from Climbing where 2 guys were climbing in the Palisades. A guy knocked a block off and fell 30+ ft. The belayer let go of the rope as he was running from the block. As it turns out, letting go of the rope wouldn't have mattered, but the question remains... could device choice make a difference in some of these accidents? That one time that you accidentally do take your hand off the rope, subconsciously or for whatever the reason? I think different people will prioritize in different ways... I think it's probably statistically less likely to be injured while being belayed by a grigri, but that still doesn't mean that you'll never get hurt by operator error... there is no 100% regardless of device... but I think a grigri in most cases would reduce your chances of drop-age. edit for grammar and stuff :D
Good Call. By drop-age do you mean when being lowered or catching a fall?
>Cam
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