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davidji
Sep 9, 2007, 2:23 AM
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For a year or so I've been doing unweighted, one-leg squats all the way down (ATG depth).
Bad for the knees or not? I've read both claims on line. As long as I didn't bounce they didn't hurt to do. My knee pain has increased a bit in the year since I started doing 'em. It could be from other things, but to be safe, I recently quit.
Edited to add:
found an interesting answer here http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Squats.html
According to that, if I don't rest thigh-on-calf it's OK. Much harder that way, which is cool: something new to work on.
(This post was edited by davidji on Sep 9, 2007, 2:55 AM)
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aerili
Sep 12, 2007, 11:52 PM
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davidji wrote: Edited to add: found an interesting answer here http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Squats.html According to that, if I don't rest thigh-on-calf it's OK. Much harder that way, which is cool: something new to work on.
Actually, your interpretation of what they say about deep squats is not exactly correct. However, kudos for picking a website about the science of exercise that is written and overseen by people with actual credentials and education and which provides great critical analysis of these topics.
In fact, the article presents at least four variables that influence how "safe" this exercise may be. The variables are very critical IMO. The author(s) are also stressing that this is NOT a low risk exercise. To decide whether you can meet all the variables they state are of utmost importance in decreasing risk of injury during this exercise, I have this to say: few laypeople (regardless of years of experience lifting) have the right understanding of applied biomechanics to determine whether or not their own body is performing a motion (on the high end of required skill and kinesthetic awareness) correctly, or whether they are actually experiencing compensations in their movement for inadequate flexibility in relevant joints, inadequate strength in peripheral muscle groups and stabilizers called upon during exercises like these, and appropriate speeds required for high risk exercises (like this one).
They also point out that few athletes actually require the specificity of an exercise like a full/deep squat.
Soft tissues like meniscus can also easily be crushed inside the knee joint when hyperflexion is performed. You say you weren't adding any extra weight, but body weight alone can provide remarkably high resistance for training, esp. during single-limb exercises. Look at gymnasts and dancers: they rarely train with anything but body weight.
I would stay your path of avoiding this exercise; you sound strong enough to generally perform one legged squats (that is, if you're doing them correctly but that's a whole other issue), but keep it within a "normal" range of motion and you shouldn't have problems, barring other injuries occurring to your knees. Standard ROM single leg squats should be more than functional for 95% of athlete population.
I am certified through the NSCA (cited at the start of your link); FWIW, I would not see the need to train anyone in the -> deep <- form of single leg squats-- with the exception of certain athletes MAYBE (perhaps fencers, certain martial artists, male Russian folk dancers [ha ha], etc.).
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jto
Sep 13, 2007, 8:05 AM
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I usually use three general depths when talking about squatting:
1. deep squat: as low as you can go
2. powerlifting depth: top of the thigh at the hip goes lower than at the knee.
3. half squat: knee joint bent at 90 degrees
4. high squat: knee joint at around 120 degrees
As a coach on the area (general and competitive power and strength for about 17 years) I usually use only two of these, 2 and 3. The number 1 really does stress the back of the patella pretty much and if one has a tendency to break cartilage this is the way to do it. Pausing, getting loose etc at the bottom is good way to crush it too.
For all general purposes the number 2 is the best for overall development. If youīre not competing in powerlifting you can leave them a bit shallow (2-4 inches).
The main problem with half and high squats is that the load used is very high compared to the strength level of the lower back and abs. I see too many ball players etc using "sport specific" knee angle and ruining their back.
For example a guy weighing 150 lbs high squatting with 350 lbs (on a bench with a bounce!) even if he canīt lift his own weight from the number 2 depth!
I use deep squats usually only with weigthlifters as is it a very important part of their lifting technique to stabilize the lowest part too. The only other use is with a very light load and high reps for rehab and circuit training etc.
Four out of five heavy lifters have problems in the back of their patella. If it hurts itīs very bad and the heavy lifting is practically over. If it doesnīt, itīs ok...
I have many lifters having done a lot (!!!) of deep squats and hack squats etc for up to 20 years of hard training and having no problems at all. Then again I just met a guy who started doing deep squats for some reason and within a year he developed pretty impressive breakage behind his patella. So this is very much dependant on genetics too.
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aerili
Sep 13, 2007, 7:05 PM
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jto wrote: with a very light load and high reps for rehab and circuit training etc.
I worked in rehab and we never did such things. No injured knee would tolerate it and it goes against all convention. So if you are talking about actual, active rehabilitation (not someone already recovered from a knee injury and reinstating a progression of training for sport or something), I cannot imagine where you would have witnessed deep squats for knee "rehab" being used???
jto wrote: I have many lifters having done a lot (!!!) of deep squats and hack squats etc for up to 20 years of hard training and having no problems at all. Then again I just met a guy who started doing deep squats for some reason and within a year he developed pretty impressive breakage behind his patella. So this is very much dependant on genetics too.
Or it's because perhaps they were progressed and trained appropriately in how to do those squats, and they had proper strength in required musculature and proper flexibility in hips and ankles before starting and were able to maintain these through the years....whereas the other guy was lacking in one or more. Based on the research presented in the article link, this makes more sense as explanation to me. Although anatomical factors probably factor some, as you say.
I found a study that is interesting because it found a low correlation between anthropometric measurements (knee circumference, length of femur, tibia, overall leg length, etc.) and patellar tendon moment arm measurements, which of course influences the torque on the joint. This was contrary to what I would have thought, although p values were higher for femur length than any other feature, which is what I would have guessed. http://www.isb2005.org/...s/abstracts/0712.pdf
Otherwise to the OP: jto and I are basically saying the same thing in your situation.
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jto
Sep 17, 2007, 8:27 AM
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Iīve been in a field of sports rehab as well as coaching and wouldnīt use them in a rehab for cartilage injury or so of course. More like strengthening the ligaments etc if at all. For this purpose the regular leg exercises are often better. In that case (too) I agree.
As I said I wouldnīt recommend deep squats in general. Perhaps Iīm using the word rehab here a bit wrong as Iīm not english. Usually when rehabbing a knee from injuries we progress from very high knee angles and use a lot of balance oriented training with almost straight leg. Also traditional bikerides, water training, forest walks etc are in use. The progression is important of course.
Deeps are good for mobility and the main use with bodyweight is usually with balance oriented exercises with gym balls and slackline etc. This is done of course with healthy knees.
In climbing one has to go very deep and sometimes tolerate some torque in the same time like in rock overs, drop knees and close heel hooks. Because of this one has to train accordingly so the stresses to the knee wonīt come as surprises. Mobility and strength at deep knee angles is sometimes quite crucial.
The tolerance for deep squats is genetic. Of course itīs highly dependant on the training history and the proper progression in technique and weights but itīs not at all the whole picture.
Still many elite or not olympic lifters suffer from bad knees and others donīt even if they have a very similar training background. This has also been proven with a lot of experience on the field during all these years.
The same with climbers. Someone can train huge volumes of high impact bouldering two times a day and someone has to be very careful with everything dynamic even if both have years of climbing behind them. We are unique and sometimes that sucks big time 
(This post was edited by jto on Sep 17, 2007, 8:35 AM)
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