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socalbolter
Nov 6, 2005, 2:27 AM
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No offense taken Karen.
The original boltings ethics were those embraced in the 60's and 70's. After that the general area became somewhat of a ghost town until climbers began visiting again in the late 80's and into the 90's. These "modern" climbers bolted both on the lead and on rappel, with the resulting routes having far more bolts, and closer together bolts than those found on the older routes.
Jump forward to the mid to late 90's. Yet another group of "locals" begin climbing in the area. These climbers adopt more of a sport climbing approach to route development. Their routes on Electric Eagle Dome (aka: Gold Eagle Dome), High Eagle Dome, The Aerie and elsewhere resemble the routes that you would see at any modern sport crag.
Leap forward a few more years to the routes that I and others have added in the last few years. We've continued the sport climbing development and our bolt spacing is on par with what's been done there over the last 15 years. We have selected the walls that appeal more to sport climbing than other styles of climbing (steep, featured walls with no naturally-protected options) and these are the walls that have seen our activity.
There are still plenty of formations out there that appeal to other climbing and protection styles, whether that be long cracks or knobby faces where knob tie-offs provide the protection. In the recent magazine article, the authors chose to provide only half the story (the half that supported the OK for public consumption story of the area) where they described long runouts, bushwack approaches, bad roads, etc. If you're looking for that you can find it there, but it's not all the way they described it.
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alter_nate
Nov 9, 2005, 9:31 PM
Post #27 of 47
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It's hard for any one specific bolting ethic to prevail when there's next to nobody around (and rock suitable for all styles of climbing).
And the old ethic isn't completely gone. If I'm not mistaken, the same folks responsible for many fine rap & drill sport routes have, and continue to, put up some predominantly trad lines ground up.
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socalbolter
Nov 11, 2005, 3:18 AM
Post #28 of 47
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Well said, Nate.
People are only getting the impression that the area is mainly sport climbing, because those are the routes that they've seen photos of. You could go out and take every bit as good of photos of long trad routes or runout face climbs.
The climbing there is top notch, regardless of your preference.
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fungusamungus
Nov 11, 2005, 1:47 PM
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Socalbolter said:
The climbing world has always been a petty place, full of closely guarded "secrets." I guess in the locals' minds Shuteye is one of those secrets. I for one think their attitude and sense of possession is a real shame.
Louie-
Email me regarding some info I'd like to discuss with you about Shuteye. Just to let you know, I'm friends with Matt Shutz and I've talked with Grahm Doe several times and getting to know him. I feel both of them welcome community and getting out new route info. However, I feel they also want to ensure there is continuity in putting up routes and avoiding "grid bolting". Keep in mind, this is not Holcomb Valley Pinnacles.
Additionally, I will voice one thing about FA's......whoever you are that is using ASCA hangers on FA's....KNOCK IT OFF!! Those hangers are not for FA's but for rebolting efforts. And, yes, I have an opinion and a right to speak on the matter because I contribute money to the cause and support it.
DMT -
"....but hard Spencer clipups at Fresno Dome."
Are you serious? Talk about soft ratings!! Thank Mark personally for Squarenail and Tollhouse gridbolting....
C'mon dude....
alter_nate said:
"And the old ethic isn't completely gone. If I'm not mistaken, the same folks responsible for many fine rap & drill sport routes have, and continue to, put up some predominantly trad lines ground up."
Very true. Kris Solem comes to mind (put up one of Courtright's hardest climbs 'The Gold Standard' .12a). Bottom line: I love our southern Sierra climbing community and it's history.
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dingus
Nov 11, 2005, 2:48 PM
Post #30 of 47
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Whatever fungus. You know what I meant.
Ciao
DMT
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fungusamungus
Nov 11, 2005, 7:38 PM
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D -
Just so you know....it Dave Daly on this end (aka fungusamungus). I'm not razing you...just busting Spencer's inconsistant ratings throughout the years. Sorry Brother Toast....
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socalbolter
Nov 11, 2005, 11:18 PM
Post #32 of 47
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Fungus (Dave) -
Since you posted to me in a public forum, instead of emailing or PMing, I see no point in doing anything other than that. If you want to PM or email me with questions - go for it. All that contact info is on my profile page or you can just address socalbolter@cox.net.
Since you obviously haven't taken the time to talk to Matt or Grahm about my routes at Shuteye, I'll let you know that they've been right there when I was bolting and that Grahm is now continuing the development at Shangri La. You seem to feel OK about their bolting and opinions; as far as I know they're on board with all that I've done there.
I might add also that the three of us (and others) spent quite a bit of time this last season blocking and erasing splinter trails and better delineating and marking the primary access trails to the different formations. On a similar note the few main trouble spots on the road to the first climbers' camp saw stabilization and rock removal to allow for safer travel by non-4x4 vehicles. You see only what you consider "grid bolting," please don't ignore the dozens of hours spent on other activities in the area.
- Louie
p.s. You made a comparison to the Holcomb Valley Pinnacles. I'm not sure if you realize or not, but I've never placed a single bolt there. Whatever you saw that you didn't like was done by the hands of others.
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fungusamungus
Nov 14, 2005, 3:45 AM
Post #33 of 47
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Whoa! I don't know what you got from my posting but it seems that you think that I'm directing my comments to you. I saw what you, Grahm, and Matt did up there. Pretty nice. And for what it's worth, I have talked to Matt and Grahm about your routes. Unwad the panties! I was only refering to the crap I have seen at long established places. I mentioned this on Summitpost.org too. And I'm not afraid to let everyone know what a f*cked up thing Spencer did to Tollhouse years ago. Seems to be taboo in a few circles. Shuteye is it's own unique setting and style....I like it. It's the next "multi-pitch" sport climbing area. That's not sarcasm.
I too worked on the trail with Matt back in August....ask him! From the creek and up to Grey Eagle, it's well marked. It ends right up to Captain Obvious. I'm glad I could contribute before moving south to Temecula.
As for the reference to Holcomb Valley, I was basically saying it has it's style and Shuteye has it's own. Never mentioned you made your mark there. Public forum or not, I'm not out to bash you. Sheeesh! Settle down.
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2005, 4:00 AM
Post #34 of 47
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Perhaps you should reread your post as well. I just read it again and got the same feeling I did when first reading it. I'm sure you may have had a certain idea of the affect your words would have when you typed them and perhaps that is different from what someone else gets when reading the post, but the implications are there all the same.
My response was typed right after I read your post, so the reaction is in line with what I felt upon reading your comments. If something was (or wasn't) intended to be conveyed with your words - so be it, but not knowing you and never having had any other contact with you I can only go on the impression I get from your post. That's what I did.
Shuteye is a special place and I'm glad that you're doing your part to help improve the place. Others should as well.
Your explanation of your post is appreciated, but like I said - please reread it. If your explanation is what you intended to portray with the original post you didn't do a very good job of it and left a lot of room for (incorrect) interpretation.
- Louie
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serenityascents
Nov 23, 2005, 6:54 AM
Post #35 of 47
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good discussion guys.
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fungusamungus
Nov 14, 2007, 5:55 PM
Post #36 of 47
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socalbolter wrote: No offense taken Karen. The original boltings ethics were those embraced in the 60's and 70's. After that the general area became somewhat of a ghost town until climbers began visiting again in the late 80's and into the 90's. These "modern" climbers bolted both on the lead and on rappel, with the resulting routes having far more bolts, and closer together bolts than those found on the older routes. Jump forward to the mid to late 90's. Yet another group of "locals" begin climbing in the area. These climbers adopt more of a sport climbing approach to route development. Their routes on Electric Eagle Dome (aka: Gold Eagle Dome), High Eagle Dome, The Aerie and elsewhere resemble the routes that you would see at any modern sport crag. Leap forward a few more years to the routes that I and others have added in the last few years. We've continued the sport climbing development and our bolt spacing is on par with what's been done there over the last 15 years. We have selected the walls that appeal more to sport climbing than other styles of climbing (steep, featured walls with no naturally-protected options) and these are the walls that have seen our activity. There are still plenty of formations out there that appeal to other climbing and protection styles, whether that be long cracks or knobby faces where knob tie-offs provide the protection. In the recent magazine article, the authors chose to provide only half the story (the half that supported the OK for public consumption story of the area) where they described long runouts, bushwack approaches, bad roads, etc. If you're looking for that you can find it there, but it's not all the way they described it.
Lest you leave out the chipping evidence found on Shangri-La and Chiquito! Who might that be?
Bad form and very irresponsible! Not what any of the community wants on these formations.
WEAK SAUCE!!
(This post was edited by fungusamungus on Nov 14, 2007, 5:57 PM)
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2007, 8:28 PM
Post #37 of 47
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Without knowing which routes you're referring to or what kind of evidence you think you've found, it's kind of hard to respond to your question.
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grayhghost
Nov 14, 2007, 8:40 PM
Post #38 of 47
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Simple question: Have you ever modified holds at Shuteye? If yes, explain in what way.
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fungusamungus
Nov 14, 2007, 10:14 PM
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Grayghost knows the deal! A host of others have been discovering the atrocities up there and the word is getting out. The names of the guilty are being withheld for now because they are given a chance to answer up on their own. But the facts are there. Confession time....
Yep.....a simple question was put out.
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2007, 10:56 PM
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Yes, I have modified holds at Shuteye.
Primarily by means of dragging my hammer back and forth across sharp crimps and the edges of sharp flakes.
I've also used the pick end of my hammer to knock flat the teeth inside some pockets and seams.
Neither of these actions would I consider as chipping, and both of them I have seen evidence of on many of the old and newer routes on the different crags in Shuteye.
There have been a few holds that I have made more positive there: One hold on Gold Standard on Chiquito Dome, one hold on The Land of Milk and Honey on Shangri La, a crimp on Paradise Lost on Shangri La, and a handful of crimps on Tranquility on High Eagle Dome.
As an aside, the hold on The Land of Milk and Honey was filled in with epoxy and camouflaged (by me) this last weekend when I was up there. There was an alternate way to do the sequence on that route and I regretted having modified the hold. As a result I decided to fill it in.
Other than that, my routes there do not have chipped holds. I readily admit what I've done there (in this thread and before) and am not trying to hide anything at all.
I can fill you in on the thought process behind the decision to do what I did there, but I have a feeling that you don't really care. In a nutshell, I would rather have a 100-200 foot pitch of a fairly consistent difficulty than have the same route with one move that is 4 or more grades harder than the rest of the climbing.
Of the 20 or so routes that I've added there, the list above is the sum total of the chipping I've performed at Shuteye. Anything else you've seen was either done after my ascent or is found on routes that I did not bolt.
- Louie
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grayhghost
Nov 14, 2007, 11:14 PM
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cool, thanks for taking the time to fill us and the community in on your actions at shuteye
do you think the modifying of holds for consistency meshes with shuteye's local ethic?
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2007, 11:23 PM
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I've seen some questionable holds on other routes there (both old and new), so it's hard to say for sure. I don't know enough of the true locals up there to have an understanding of the consensus of their wishes for the area. I've tried to find out who they are and get to know them, but as you know if you've been there - you rarely see anyone else.
There has been a degree of regret in my mind over what I have already done there, which led to my filling in the hold on The Land of Milk and Honey.
I plan to continue climbing in Shuteye, and will probably continue to add routes here and there. Given the reactions voiced on chipping and route density in this thread, I would certainly consider these opinions when deciding on future actions.
Community consensus is a big thing for me. The routes that I have already modified I truly feel are better routes than they would have been without my actions, but if what I've done there is not the acceptable option in most locals minds - I won't do it anymore. That's an easy decision for me.
edit = spelling
(This post was edited by socalbolter on Nov 14, 2007, 11:31 PM)
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slablizard
Nov 14, 2007, 11:55 PM
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I had the pleasure to climb those routes, first time at Chiquito Dome, last time at Little Shuteye...I was with Grahm...That place is magic and the routes are fantastic...keep up the good work!
I TRd the high 12s at chiquito (they were still projects back then) and the STELLAR 10b second pitches...I did the trad sling protected ones at little Shuteye and an 11d on a yellow overhanging face to the right...
I just wish I was closer to Shuteye.
Again, thanks for all the hard work up there guys.
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fungusamungus
Nov 15, 2007, 12:19 AM
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I agree, to some degree, that hard work has been put in at Shuteye and a great deal of dedication has been put forth to have a place somwhat out of the beaten path for the enjoyment of all. However, I'm not excited about chipping or modification of holds. Testing them on the FA (ie friable and weak holds) isn't an issue. But to modifythem to make them more comfortable and allow passage to the next move.....BAD JUJU! It doesn't matter what level one climbs, we should be setting an example to the gererations to come that this is unacceptable. What next? Bolted plastic holds?
I appreaciate your honesty Louie and I think its admirable that you explained things openly. We all want the best for Shuteye and the wonderful climbing it offers.
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socalbolter
Nov 15, 2007, 12:43 AM
Post #45 of 47
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fungusamungus wrote: We all want the best for Shuteye and the wonderful climbing it offers.
I agree completely.
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alter_nate
Nov 19, 2007, 8:30 PM
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Although I cannot possibly speak for the Shuteye climbing community as a whole, this much I can surmise:
It goes without saying that the Sierra, especially Yosemite, has been somewhat of a bastion of traditional climbing ethics. We are blessed with tons of bullet proof granite with marvelous natural features. Almost all of the individuals who have contributed routes at Shuteye over many years, whether local or not, have contributed routes elsewhere in the Sierra and the Valley.
Now, even though top down sport routes have loosely been accepted on suitable walls at Shuteye, those who put them up are, by and large, still rooted in Sierra traditionalism. This means, in my opinion, that the rock dictates the climb and not the other way 'round. Thus, irregardless of the grade of the climb, chipping, hold enhancement, and bolting next to cracks and slingable knobs and plates, is unacceptable. Hearing of these acts saddens me. Others - who have recently climbed chipped routes - are incensed.
(This post was edited by alter_nate on Nov 20, 2007, 1:05 AM)
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papa_eos
Nov 20, 2007, 4:57 AM
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alter_nate wrote: This means, in my opinion, that the rock dictates the climb and not the other way 'round. Thus, irregardless of the grade of the climb, chipping, hold enhancement, and bolting next to cracks and slingable knobs and plates, is unacceptable. Hearing of these acts saddens me. Others - who have recently climbed chipped routes - are incensed.
This is definitely hitting the nail on the head in terms of what is going on, not necessarily here only, but the future of climbing is going to come to this. Rap bolted sport climbs will become the norm in "traditional areas".
Ground up FA's will definitely become old school and dated unless this style of route development in traditional areas is stopped. But we all know that it can't be stopped, only slowed down.
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