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jt512
Dec 11, 2007, 1:40 AM
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There is an interesting discussion in the Injuries and Accidents forum, under the title "'Regulating' Safety Outside, about when to intervene when you observe other climbers doing something that might be dangerous. The consensus is, well, that there's no consensus. It depends on the situation and your philosophy in such matters.
I thought it might be interesting to present some scenarios and see which ones people think they should react to, and how they would react. So, here are 10 scenarios involving at least questionable safety practices. Each one of these scenarios really occurred, and I'll post how I reacted to them after enough people have responded that my response won't bias the results. In responding, use the quote function wisely. ;-)
Scenario 1.
A middle-aged climber is belaying a younger climber on a 5.9 sport route, which the leader is finding challenging, though she doesn't appear to be over her head. From the belayer's manner, you're essentially certain that he's a trad climber with many years of climbing experience, but he's belaying sitting down, has a large amount of slack in the rope, constantly holds the ropes together in front of his face with both hands wrapped around both ropes, and feeds slack by completely letting go with his brake hand and repositioning it on the rope.
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 2.
Exactly the same scenario as above, except that the belayer is a famous climber from the '70s, with numerous first ascents of classic routes in Yosemite and elsewhere.
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 3.
Again the same scenario, but the belayer and climber are both obviously beginners.
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 4.
A male and a female in their mid-teens, either a brother and sister, boyfriend and girlfriend, or possibly both, are "climbing" at an obscure local sport crag. They have real harnesses, but are wearing tennis shoes, and are using a hardware store rope. As you approach the crag, the male climber has just completed a rappel.
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 5.
You've just arrived at your local sport crag and, while hiking past a formation, you overhear someone in his teens, apparently teaching several others to belay, say with a tone of dismay in his voice, "At the gym, they teach this convoluted method of belaying where you always keep your brake hand on the rope."
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 6.
Same scenario as above, but instead the "teacher" says, "Back clipping isn't really that bad."
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 7.
A group of three arrives at the sport wall you're climbing. One of the group -- apparently the most experienced -- leads up to the 4th bolt of a sport climb, clips in direct, and calls "Off belay." He then girth hitches a nylon runner to the bolt, unties, feeds his rope directly through the runner, and raps down. He then instructs one his partners to tie-in to the rope to toprope the route.
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 8.
Part 1.
At your local sport crag two male climbers, one with his hair in a pony tail, who are wearing full military camoflage uniforms, including berets and infantry boots, but with no military insignia, are working a 5.11 route. The leader is struggling and hanging, and can't get past the first bolt. In spite of the fact that he's on a 5.11, and there are numerous easier routes in the area, your impression is that it is his first time climbing. Though the belayer's back is to you, he appears to be haveing an inordinate amount of trouble maintaining control of the belay.
What if anything, do you do?
Part 2.
Assume you decide to investigate. As you approach the climber, you find that although he has an ATC on his harness, he is belaying with the rope only passed through a carabiner on his belay loop for friction.
What if anything, do you do?
Part 3.
Assume you suggest that the climber return to the ground, and he does. You ask why the belayer wasn't using his ATC. He responds that they couldn't figure out how to use it.
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 9.
A group of four teenage males arrives at the sport crag, and one procedes to attempt to lead a tricky, sandbagged 5.11a. The leader is having trouble getting to the second bolt. He takes several whippers, including a couple of ground falls with rope stretch. Your impression is that they are 5.11 gym climbers, and that this is their very first outdoor route.
What if anything, do you do?
Scenario 10.
A strong European guy in his mid-20s has just lowered off a 5.10c sport route that he led with ease, and has cleaned all the draws, except for those on the anchors. The route goes up one wall of a dihdreal, traverses, and then goes up the other wall of the dihedral. His girlfriend has tied in and has started up the route on TR. As she gets to the start of the traverse, she is clearly struggling, and becomes frightened. She probably has a 50/50 chance of falling here, and if she does, she'll take a dangerous pendulum swing into the other wall of the dihedral.
What if anything, do you do?
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 11, 2007, 1:41 AM)
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coastal_climber
Dec 11, 2007, 2:01 AM
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I would inform the climbers of the errors. BUT it's up to them whether or not to take my advice. Ultimately, its their decision, not mine.
>Cam
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dr_feelgood
Dec 11, 2007, 2:08 AM
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Steal their sandwiches while they are not looking. Befriend, console and seduce their girlfriends during their time of mourning. Take a dump in their climbing shoes. Teach them the munter hitch.
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shoo
Dec 11, 2007, 2:28 AM
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These solutions are all if I'm feeling generous. It also helps if you have some form of legit certification (AMGA or the like) to show qualification.
Scenario 1
Nothing except possibly ask if the belayer is okay. While it may be clear that the person is in fact physically fine, it will let him know that he doesn't appear to be paying enough attention.
Scenario 2
Same as above.
Scenario 3
Definitely as if the belayer is okay. When he asks why, you can tell him his belay looks a little off.
Scenario 4
Hardware store rope = get them the hell off the crag immediately. Approach them nicely, tell them it's clear they are beginners. Offer to assist, maybe even using your own gear if you're super nice, but ensure they don't climb without proper instruction ever again.
Scenario 5
Wait until the leader of the pack is away from the others and politely enter into discussion with him. Smile lots and laugh a little so his friends don't know what's going to on, but inform him of why he is wrong.\
Scenario 6
Same as above
Scenario 7
Same as above
Scenario 8.1
If it doesn't look like he's doing anything unsafe, nothing.
Scenario 8.2
Instruct him on top rope, inform them that they need to have proper instruction and certainly shouldn't be leading, make sure they don't climb that day.
Scenario 8.3
Same as above
Scenario 9
Leave them be. They'll figure it out.
Scenario 10
Nothing. Anything you do will make things worse at this point.
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endercore
Dec 11, 2007, 2:32 AM
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go to another crag
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happiegrrrl
Dec 11, 2007, 2:50 AM
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Okay - I'll play.....
I wouldn't do anything for the first 6 scenarios, except make a "n00bs" comment to my partner about the sitting down/hands off belayer in #3.
Scenario Seven I would go up and tell them the sling tr anchor is mank and explain how the rope against runner will saw through. Now, unless Jay has some reasoning as to why I'm wrong, I'd be pretty adamant, to the point of "you're going to rip and could die if you do it" and have no problem explaining the leader is clueless. So - please do explain asap if that's the case, because I sure don't want to embarrass myself. If they have been open to the criticism, I would explain a decent anchor set up. If not, I would make a snide "asshole" remark and walk away.
On Scenario 8, part 1 - I'd notice them but unless I happened to be walking right past them, would probably not notice the problem mentioned in part 2.
In Part 2, after he says he doesn't know about the ATC, I say - "I can help you out" and if he's willing, I'll thread my belay device behind his belay, pull up close, make sure the climbers not about to fall, and then tell him he can let go.
Show him how to work an ATC after the climber comes off, see that they understand, and then get the hell away from them, probably after making a snide remark about getting competent guidance.
In Part 3, I wouldn't have suggested the climber come down.
In Scenario 9, I would probably stop and watch, thanking my lucky stars that I am a trad climber and don't get on shit where I will probably fall unprotected at 15 feet up.
Scenario 10 - Think the guy's a fucking asshole, not protecting his partner. The truth, I'd probably not be able to help them. Perhaps she can climb back to a secure stance, and clip in to some natural protection if she's carrying a sling and biner, use it as a directional and then lower off. Perhaps a superman climber happens to appear at the clifftop and can lower and set a few directionals for her.
This is the sort of crap where I hold to my belief that we are supposed to be self-reliant. We are supposed to understand the risks of the situations we put ourselves in. We aren't supposed to be going out and putting blind faith in others. N00bs need to get enough knowledge to be able to vet their partner's experience level and read basic climbing situations as quickly as possible.
If my partner had led a route and started to pull the directions for my TR, I would know to tell him to put them back in. Actually, I would never climb with someone who would do something so stupid.... And I knew how to avoid those types VERY early on.
There's no reason someone who has climbed at least once before should not have the ability to find out how to protect themselves and make sure they are going with competent partners.
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caughtinside
Dec 11, 2007, 2:59 AM
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1-10.
Bellow, "YER GONNA DIE!!!"
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dr_feelgood
Dec 11, 2007, 3:12 AM
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Wow. You're remarkably stupid. How is it you were the dominant chromosome?
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billcoe_
Dec 11, 2007, 3:23 AM
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Do it hold or don't it?
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sky7high
Dec 11, 2007, 3:24 AM
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Ok, here goes:
Scenario 1:
(Chances are, all the gear he has is borrowed, and he doesn't have too much experience after all.)
If he looks like an experienced guy, then I'll ask him why is he belaying on such a poor manner. I have nothing against a sitting belayer, but the hands off the rope is a big no-no for me, so after I ask him about this, I'll make sure he knows what the proper technique is, and make sure the younger climber hears us. It's better to be a little scared than a little dead.
Scenario 2
Pretty much the same, although I'll pay more attention to the response, and elaborate from there, if it's something along the lines of "Back in the day I belayed like this and no one got killed so I don't care" then I'll probably tell this to the leader he/she has a right to know that the belayer is being negligent.
Scenario 3
I'll ask if he/she knows exactly how to belay, and how he learned. Then I'll proceed to explain why it is wrong and how to correct it. All of this in a humble manner. Chances are, they'll appreciate it a lot.
Scenario 4
Approach them immediately, say they can't be climbing on that and why, and invite them over to climb with us, if they and my partner(s) are OK with it, and tell them a little more about the sport, maybe invite them climbing at the gym or at a local crag, as they're obviously very interested in climbing. Possibly suggest a climbing course
Scenario 5
Get over there with my entire party, and ask him about where he learned to belay, then, if we DONT get blown off, then I would teach him the correct method of doing do. If we DO get blown off, then we would at least make sure the "students" get the point.
This is, IMO, the most difficult scenario, and the above is a pretty ideal solution.
Scenario 6
Same as above
BTW, in 5 and 6, scaring the students would be a good idea, might not be the best solution, but it'll keep them off the wall, or at least they'll be too freaked out to climb high.
Scenario 7
Go over immediately and tell them why not, most likely they don't know better.
Scenario 8
Part 1: go there and investigate
Part 2: Instruct him why he is wrong, ask for permission, and lower the other dude myself
Part 3: After he's down, I'll tell them to go to the gym or to get a climbing course, they clearly don't know how to climb. Maybe invite them over with us.
Scenario 9
Open the bag of chips, a coke, and watch the show.
Maybe cheer him on a bit. Then flame the gym rats on this forum.
Scenario 10
Nothing really. Can't think of anything to save her. Maybe she learns why some people have that funny-looking thing they call a helmet.
As a final note, I would probably bring my parner along on most of the scenarios above for support, if two people tell someone he/she is wrong, then he/she is more likely to think about it.
Now, I have another scenario for you, it actually happened, although nothing went wrong.
Scenario 11
A young couple comes to a local crag, but there's no one around but you and your partner. The male, who is clearly more experienced, ties in and prepares to lead a very easy 5.6 route. He tells his girlfriend, who is clearly a total n00b, to "remember what I taught you", and she puts him, or tries to, on belay. She is very freaked out, and really doesn't know how to belay, but her boyfriend trusts her and starts climbing
What, if anything, would you do?
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shockabuku
Dec 11, 2007, 3:24 AM
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I think in most cases that aren't immediately threatening the best way to start off anything is to engage the other party in discussion and ask about what they're doing, then go from there.
Scenario 1.
If I'm nearby I might ask if he thinks he has an inordinate amount of slack out and maybe how he responds to a fall (that I can't tell if he can even see). Then hope for the best and maybe walk away if his response isn't encouraging.
Scenario 2.
Ask about his belay style and point out how it differs from what I believe to be current ideas on belaying.
Scenario 3.State the possible outcome of that belaying style and suggest better alternatives. If they aren't well received - walk away.
Scenario 4.
Ask if they're climbing on that rope. Hopefully this will elicit some discussion about the properties of different kind of ropes and go from there.
Scenario 5.
Become an uninvited member of the audience and suggest better technique or pass on depending on the group vibe.
Scenario 6.
Is back clipping that bad there? I don't see too many newbies trying to lead overhanging terrain where it's most disconcerting. If it is really a significant issue I think the same as above.
Scenario 7.
This calls for definite intervention. Perhaps in the manner of suggesting that I can saw through the runner with their rope in less than five minutes for a six pack bet.
Scenario 8.
Part 1.
I'm hard pressed to walk away from this group but, I might engage them in conversation to try to determine what they actually know through discussion of the local area, what grade climb they're on (do they know, do they know anything about grades) and how they're doing. Let the conversation evolve from there.
Part 2.
ASk if it isn't hard to control the belay that way. Work from there with his answer.
Part 3.
Show them how to use it, suggest they try top-roping and explain the difference between belaying a leader and a top-roper in the hope that they might back off a little. Maybe suggest they observe some other people belaying.
Scenario 9.
"Damn dude, aren't you worried you're going to get hurt doing that?" Maybe suggest stick clipping. Depending on the reaction, leave.
Scenario 10.
Point out the possibility of the pendulum. Not much else to do. Is she hot?
(This post was edited by shockabuku on Dec 11, 2007, 3:33 AM)
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scott0708
Dec 11, 2007, 3:26 AM
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Cool Question. I have been in a few situations like the ones you’ve described. I guess I’ll answer each individually:
“Scenario 1.
A middle-aged climber is belaying a younger climber on a 5.9 sport route, which the leader is finding challenging, though she doesn't appear to be over her head. From the belayer's manner, you're essentially certain that he's a trad climber with many years of climbing experience, but he's belaying sitting down, has a large amount of slack in the rope, constantly holds the ropes together in front of his face with both hands wrapped around both ropes, and feeds slack by completely letting go with his brake hand and repositioning it on the rope.”
I’d find it tough to do anything here. Though it’s obviously a dangerous setup, I’d probably be afraid that me talking/arguing with him would only serve to distract him further. Also, I wouldn’t feel that comfortable rebuking an older, presumably more experienced climber, since I’m only 22.
”Scenario 2.
Exactly the same scenario as above, except that the belayer is a famous climber from the '70s, with numerous first ascents of classic routes in Yosemite and elsewhere.”
Same as above.
Scenario 3.
Again the same scenario, but the belayer and climber are both obviously beginners.
Here, I would be much more likely to step in, though I’d be very careful not to make the situation worse by getting in a heated argument while the belay was still on.
Scenario 4.
A male and a female in their mid-teens, either a brother and sister, boyfriend and girlfriend, or possibly both, are "climbing" at an obscure local sport crag. They have real harnesses, but are wearing tennis shoes, and are using a hardware store rope. As you approach the crag, the male climber has just completed a rappel.
I would try to be friendly, ask them if they’d climbed here (or anywhere) before. If I was feeling generous and they seemed nice, I would probably offer to let them toprope on some routes that I was doing. If they insisted on using their own rope for leading, I would strongly advise against it and talk to them about climbing rope, specifically its dynamic properties.
Scenario 5.
You've just arrived at your local sport crag and, while hiking past a formation, you overhear someone in his teens, apparently teaching several others to belay, say with a tone of dismay in his voice, "At the gym, they teach this convoluted method of belaying where you always keep your brake hand on the rope."
If there are some climbs in the vicinity that I wanted to climb, I would mind my own business while keeping an eye on them. If they were actually belaying with unsafe techniques, I would try to start friendly conversation and give them some tips on better belay technique.
Scenario 6.
Same scenario as above, but instead the "teacher" says, "Back clipping isn't really that bad."
Same, and it I actually saw someone backclip, I would advise them on the potential consequences the right way to clip. Again, I’d try to be friendly.
Scenario 7.
A group of three arrives at the sport wall you're climbing. One of the group -- apparently the most experienced -- leads up to the 4th bolt of a sport climb, clips in direct, and calls "Off belay." He then girth hitches a nylon runner to the bolt, unties, feeds his rope directly through the runner, and raps down. He then instructs one his partners to tie-in to the rope to toprope the route.
This is probably the most immediately threatening of the situations given, since the result will almost certainly be a groundfall. I would definitely step in and explain how the sling WILL FAIL if the climber falls, or when they begin to lower through it. Most likely, the climber about to top-rope the route would listen. If they seemed receptive and nice, I would offer to lead the route and set up a proper TR setup for them.
Scenario 8.
Part 1.
At your local sport crag two male climbers, one with his hair in a pony tail, who are wearing full military camoflage uniforms, including berets and infantry boots, but with no military insignia, are working a 5.11 route. The leader is struggling and hanging, and can't get past the first bolt. In spite of the fact that he's on a 5.11, and there are numerous easier routes in the area, your impression is that it is his first time climbing. Though the belayer's back is to you, he appears to be haveing an inordinate amount of trouble maintaining control of the belay.
Tricky one, since these guys seem weird. Military uniform, but with a ponytail? I guess I would attempt to start friendly conversation, and maybe suggest alternate routes.
Part 2.
Assume you decide to investigate. As you approach the climber, you find that although he has an ATC on his harness, he is belaying with the rope only passed through a carabiner on his belay loop for friction.
I would tell the climber to downclimb.
Part 3.
Assume you suggest that the climber return to the ground, and he does. You ask why the belayer wasn't using his ATC. He responds that they couldn't figure out how to use it.
If they seem receptive, and I was feeling generous, I would probably take the time to instruct them. If I was feeling less generous, I would give them info on the nearest gym or guide service and suggest they go there and take a class.
Scenario 9.
A group of four teenage males arrives at the sport crag, and one procedes to attempt to lead a tricky, sandbagged 5.11a. The leader is having trouble getting to the second bolt. He takes several whippers, including a couple of ground falls with rope stretch. Your impression is that they are 5.11 gym climbers, and that this is their very first outdoor route.
I would try to start friendly conversation, and maybe recommend some easier routes in the area. Again, if I had the time and was feeling generous, I might offer to ropegun so they could TR, where they might feel more comfortable.
Scenario 10.
A strong European guy in his mid-20s has just lowered off a 5.10c sport route that he led with ease, and has cleaned all the draws, except for those on the anchors. The route goes up one wall of a dihdreal, traverses, and then goes up the other wall of the dihedral. His girlfriend has tied in and has started up the route on TR. As she gets to the start of the traverse, she is clearly struggling, and becomes frightened. She probably has a 50/50 chance of falling here, and if she does, she'll take a dangerous pendulum swing into the other wall of the dihedral.
There doesn’t seem like much could be done here, since she’s already up there. If I did yell something about the potential danger, it would probably only serve to make her more nervous/likely to fall. Maybe after the climb, assuming she makes it down without getting too badly hurt, I would try to start a conversation with the guy and, if he seemed receptive, give him tips on how to better protect the second on TR (ie leaving some draws in place).
All of these questions are pretty tough, and would largely depend on how friendly and receptive the climbers in question were. For the most part, if they are jerks and not listening, I wouldn’t be super-persistent. I guess the only exception would be the “Certain Death” situations, like #4 and #7. In those situations, I would be very persistent and emphasize the serious consequences. I tend to believe that, if I come across as level-headed and experienced, the noobs’ self-preservation instinct would kick-in and recognize the good advice.
I work in a climbing gym, so I have had experience dealing with beginners and teaching proper techniques. Obviously, in my gym, it’s very easy to step in when someone is doing something unsafe, since I’m in a position of authority as an employee. Outside, people might not be as receptive, since they view the climbing area as public, and so I wouldn’t have any real authority.
Anyways, I love climbing, and I really want others to enjoy it as well. Hence my willingness to help others by leading/setting up TRs, teaching them the basics, etc. There is a bit of self-interest on my part as well, since accidents or deaths at the crag would not have a great effect on access or general attitude towards climbers.
Thanks for the question,
-Scott
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sky7high
Dec 11, 2007, 3:29 AM
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By the way, pretty good post Jay!
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boymeetsrock
Dec 11, 2007, 3:34 AM
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Wow... The Love
edit to add: didn't see the serious responses before my post went up... This is a great post!!
(This post was edited by boymeetsrock on Dec 11, 2007, 3:44 AM)
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jt512
Dec 11, 2007, 3:39 AM
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sky7high wrote: Scenario 9 [Gymbies who think they can climb 5.11 their first day out] Open the bag of chips, a coke, and watch the show. Maybe cheer him on a bit. Then flame the gym rats on this forum.
Substitute "Red Bull" for "Coke" and "Cliff Bar" for "chips," and that's exactly what I did, including the report to rc.com.
I'll hold off on commenting on the others until more "votes" are in.
In reply to: Now, I have another scenario for you, it actually happened, although nothing went wrong. Scenario 11 A young couple comes to a local crag, but there's no one around but you and your partner. The male, who is clearly more experienced, ties in and prepares to lead a very easy 5.6 route. He tells his girlfriend, who is clearly a total n00b, to "remember what I taught you", and she puts him, or tries to, on belay. She is very freaked out, and really doesn't know how to belay, but her boyfriend trusts her and starts climbing What, if anything, would you do?
My response would range from nothing to fully taking over the belay, depending on how experienced the leader was. Is he an expert who understands that he's essentially free soloing the route? If so, there's no reason to do anything. At the other extreme, if there's a serious a chance he could fall and she wouldn't catch him, I'd at least back up the belayer, and possibly just take over the belay myself.
Jay
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ja1484
Dec 11, 2007, 3:43 AM
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In reply to: Scenario 1. A middle-aged climber is belaying a younger climber on a 5.9 sport route, which the leader is finding challenging, though she doesn't appear to be over her head. From the belayer's manner, you're essentially certain that he's a trad climber with many years of climbing experience, but he's belaying sitting down, has a large amount of slack in the rope, constantly holds the ropes together in front of his face with both hands wrapped around both ropes, and feeds slack by completely letting go with his brake hand and repositioning it on the rope. What if anything, do you do?
Trad bit's a decent troll.
What I do: Be sure to climb with someone else.
In reply to: Scenario 2. Exactly the same scenario as above, except that the belayer is a famous climber from the '70s, with numerous first ascents of classic routes in Yosemite and elsewhere. What if anything, do you do?
Get a photo, then be sure to climb with someone else.
In reply to: Scenario 3. Again the same scenario, but the belayer and climber are both obviously beginners. What if anything, do you do?
Avoid getting into an impromptu belay lesson for which you will not be paid, or being involved in a rescue, by moving to a different section of the crag and climbing with someone else.
In reply to: Scenario 4. A male and a female in their mid-teens, either a brother and sister, boyfriend and girlfriend, or possibly both, are "climbing" at an obscure local sport crag. They have real harnesses, but are wearing tennis shoes, and are using a hardware store rope. As you approach the crag, the male climber has just completed a rappel. What if anything, do you do?
Note to them that they might die, then leave without explanation.
In reply to: Scenario 5. You've just arrived at your local sport crag and, while hiking past a formation, you overhear someone in his teens, apparently teaching several others to belay, say with a tone of dismay in his voice, "At the gym, they teach this convoluted method of belaying where you always keep your brake hand on the rope." What if anything, do you do?
Walk by and make a very hearable comment about this "convoluted form of climbing where you attach yourself to a rope".
In reply to: Scenario 6. Same scenario as above, but instead the "teacher" says, "Back clipping isn't really that bad." What if anything, do you do?
Attempt to start an argument by claiming that forward clipping isn't that good but is, at best, average.
In reply to: Scenario 7. A group of three arrives at the sport wall you're climbing. One of the group -- apparently the most experienced -- leads up to the 4th bolt of a sport climb, clips in direct, and calls "Off belay." He then girth hitches a nylon runner to the bolt, unties, feeds his rope directly through the runner, and raps down. He then instructs one his partners to tie-in to the rope to toprope the route. What if anything, do you do?
Point out to the leader of group 6 that this method is plainly superior to his as it involves no clipping whatsoever. Suggest he do this at every bolt.
Go back to your campsite, drink beer, and listen to the police scanner.
In reply to: Scenario 8. Part 1. At your local sport crag two male climbers, one with his hair in a pony tail, who are wearing full military camoflage uniforms, including berets and infantry boots, but with no military insignia, are working a 5.11 route. The leader is struggling and hanging, and can't get past the first bolt. In spite of the fact that he's on a 5.11, and there are numerous easier routes in the area, your impression is that it is his first time climbing. Though the belayer's back is to you, he appears to be haveing an inordinate amount of trouble maintaining control of the belay. What if anything, do you do?
Wait until they say something to you then loudly say "Where are you? I can't see anyone?" and look around confused. They've never heard this one before.
In reply to: Part 2. Assume you decide to investigate. As you approach the climber, you find that although he has an ATC on his harness, he is belaying with the rope only passed through a carabiner on his belay loop for friction. What if anything, do you do?
Tell him you're relieved that he's not using a GriGri, because they instill unsafe belay habits.
In reply to: Part 3. Assume you suggest that the climber return to the ground, and he does. You ask why the belayer wasn't using his ATC. He responds that they couldn't figure out how to use it. What if anything, do you do?
Show him every in and out of ATC operation, and then claim absolute ignorance regarding how to use the bolts.
In reply to: Scenario 9. A group of four teenage males arrives at the sport crag, and one procedes to attempt to lead a tricky, sandbagged 5.11a. The leader is having trouble getting to the second bolt. He takes several whippers, including a couple of ground falls with rope stretch. Your impression is that they are 5.11 gym climbers, and that this is their very first outdoor route. What if anything, do you do?
Give them the beta, and be sure to tell them you can climb the blue route.
In reply to: Scenario 10. A strong European guy in his mid-20s has just lowered off a 5.10c sport route that he led with ease, and has cleaned all the draws, except for those on the anchors. The route goes up one wall of a dihdreal, traverses, and then goes up the other wall of the dihedral. His girlfriend has tied in and has started up the route on TR. As she gets to the start of the traverse, she is clearly struggling, and becomes frightened. She probably has a 50/50 chance of falling here, and if she does, she'll take a dangerous pendulum swing into the other wall of the dihedral. What if anything, do you do?
Clearly a trick question. European sporties don't deign to climb 5.10c, even if ropegunning. You have to be at least a .13b toprope to climb with European sporties.
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joshy8200
Dec 11, 2007, 3:46 AM
Post #19 of 113
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Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 646
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Been there done that when I first took a girlfriend out climbing...
I'm getting married to her in April. I climbed with some confidence in her belay, but basically followed the 'leader never falls' mentality for awhile with her.
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shockabuku
Dec 11, 2007, 3:59 AM
Post #21 of 113
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Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
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JT,
I think it would be interesting to wait until blueeyedclimber comments.
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areyoumydude
Dec 11, 2007, 4:35 AM
Post #22 of 113
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Registered: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 1971
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Scenario #1
Hop on the bus, Gus
Scenario #2
Make a new plan, Stan
Scenario #3
Get off of the hill, Bill
Scenario #4
Repeat
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kricir
Dec 11, 2007, 4:39 AM
Post #23 of 113
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Registered: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 434
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Scenario 11 sounds like any given day of work for a climbing guide, I wouldn't do anything.
Besides that, only #4 and 7 seem really dangerous enough to justify physical action, all others would probably be solved just by saying something about what they could be doing better.
this thread reminds me of some similar situations that I've seen myself. If you want to hear 3 more tales off n00bnicity check this one out.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=1756808;#1756808
(This post was edited by kricir on Dec 11, 2007, 4:43 AM)
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jt512
Dec 11, 2007, 4:41 AM
Post #24 of 113
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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kricir wrote: The one about the army want-a-bies is the gyms problem, not yours.
All scenarios occurred at crags, not in the gym.
Jay
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kricir
Dec 11, 2007, 4:45 AM
Post #25 of 113
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Registered: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 434
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hmm, you right, where the hell did I get that from?
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