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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 7:40 PM
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do you mean 2 people rapping off 2 ends of the same rope (ie: counter-weighting eachother)?
and...
What knot?
The scenario we're talking about is just a rappel. Two ropes tied solidly at the anchor. Two rappellers. Two devices. Two descents at the same time on different ropes.
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moose_droppings
Sep 21, 2008, 7:46 PM
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Good point.
If their simul rapping, it be easy enough to fix the 2 ropes above you together via "You also happen to have any and all gear you own".
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moose_droppings
Sep 21, 2008, 7:52 PM
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sungam wrote: moose_droppings wrote: OK, if your needing to end up on top and not your 1st scenario "before we touch down", then first thing is to secure your buddy to his line(make sure he can't slide down). Jug your self to the top, make your call if you can now. Set up a 2-1 (or whatever your haul system you want) on his line at the top and start hauling him up. We're trying to do something hypothetical.  u ruinz it. 
Dang hyperpothetical....errr hippopothetical, hypothetical anyway.
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billl7
Sep 21, 2008, 7:58 PM
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If we were sumul-rapping on one rope and the rope hangs clear from the anchor, I think it is still doable. Put the 'anchor' point for the 2:1 system on the strand that does not have the victim. But it''s going to take much longer to get to the top.
Edit: Might be better to go to something like moose just mentioned.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Sep 21, 2008, 7:59 PM)
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 7:58 PM
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 8:15 PM
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Define simul-rap please? Two people one device?
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 8:23 PM
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Two people one rope, opposite ends counter-balancing each others.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 8:26 PM
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sungam wrote: Two people one rope, opposite ends counter-balancing each others.
How safe is this? Is this a common and viable option for long multi-pitch raps?
I'm doing a 11 pitch climb in a month with an 11 pitch rap. Ugh.
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 8:32 PM
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Yeah, if the anchors are bomber, and the climbers are of similar weights. Just make sure you got knots in the ends, or one guy going off with kill the two of you.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 8:34 PM
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.....
I'd almost rather rap on one device and deal with the gheyness.
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billl7
Sep 21, 2008, 8:36 PM
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Lazlo wrote: sungam wrote: Two people one rope, opposite ends counter-balancing each others. How safe is this? Is this a common and viable option for long multi-pitch raps? I'm doing a 11 pitch climb in a month with an 11 pitch rap. Ugh.
Assuming a good anchor, it can be quite safe: Both folks back up their rappel (e.g., autoblock) since if one person loses control both persons are lost. Also, it might be helpful to link the two persons with a sling so that one person can't get much ahead of the other (e.g., big weight difference).
Without those safety measures it might go faster. But risk of a serious catastrophe is also larger.
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altelis
Sep 21, 2008, 9:03 PM
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ok, quick and dirty on simul rapping.
you wont' save any time doing two people one device (not like 2 girls one cup....). by the time you figure out how to move together while roped together, AND rig enough friction you might as well just rap separately. sheesh. don't be foolish.
simul rappels tend to be an alpine trick. they work REALLY well down steep snow couloirs but work on any sort of descent. the trick is to make sure you go at simillar speeds and if there is a LARGE weight difference make sure you try and split the gear up to make up for that difference. i would conjecture that many would be surprised what kind of weight difference is possible.
i would think that the speed savings AREN'T worth it on a single rope rappel. You do need to rappel slower than normal to ensure everything goes right, and by the time you rap the SHORT distance of a 1/2 rope length you might as well have just done it normally and not introduced the extra risk (because, YES, it is inherrently more risky)
i use it most often when i'm climbing alpine terrain AND have decided to use double ropes. you save EXTRAORDINARY time by rapping 60 m at a time ONCE per team. you rig the rappel as if you were doing a double rope rappel- ie the rigging is no different. but now you BOTH go at the same time on opposite ropes (but they are still tied together like normal so you can pull them from the bottom).
again, though, this is only worth doing if you have LOTS of rappeling to do (and 11 pitches WOULD qualify IF these are FULL rope length pitches. ie you are required to do 11 raps, not 5 or 6 full length raps---, esp if you can combine raps and do double rope raps) AND the terrain warrants double ropes for climbing.
that being said if i know there is going to be a lot of rapping but the terrain doesn't warrant it-- ie doesn't wander, than i go with a single rope and a skinny static tag line. this lets me go full 60 m raps with only the weight of one lead rope. climbing is MUCH faster with a single rope than doubles, i don't care who you are. rope management, clusterfucks, etc. just don't happen nearly as much with a single. and i (and many others) climb lots of ice, alpine rock and snow with single ropes. ESP with the relatively new advent of super skinny singles. this technique DOES NOT ALLOW SIMUL RAPPING. to simul rap you need cords of almost identical thickness.
if you want the details (which i DID NOT give- these are VERY nuanced techniques. please don't think i gave enough info to try them out yet) do the research on here. these topics have been covered ad nauseum.
so- when you mentioned both people rapping at the same time I assumed you were on two separate ropes. it has been my experience that in the distances of a 1/2 rope rappel (30-35 m's depending on the rope) simul rapping DOES NOT SAVE TIME. and remember, the time saving is where the extra objective risk is balanced. by traveling faster you get out of the danger zone in the mountains where darkness/weather can mean death. and if you are simul rapping with two ropes then there IS A KNOT joining the ropes which WILL prohibit you from rescue if god has happened to not smile upon you and positioned the knot such that it would have to pass through the anchor. 50% chance it will be set up this way. dig?
i would say a new faster rapping technique may be in order for your upcoming trip. that said PRACTICE these (both of the them or only one depending on available gear and what types of ropes you carry) before you leave. again, these techniques (simul rapping and a full rope rope with a lead line/tag line combo) are only useful when they save you LOTS of time. this is the only way they outweigh the added danger. so if they are going to slow you down don't use them. if they aren't WIRED then don't use them. go to your local crag and get them DIALED with your partner. if your crag is only single pitch, set up a mid-way anchor. you can clean your gear next go-around.
wow-----that wasn't quick or dirty. ok, a little dirty (i DID reference 2 girls one cup....)
sorry for the thread drift. feel free to pick up where you left off---that is after you wake back up after falling asleep from reading my drivle!
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 9:09 PM
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Na, I like it. I learned a few things. The difference in rope thickness was a good tip.
The pitches ARE full rope length.
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 9:10 PM
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nice summery :)
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 9:10 PM
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Oh...and do the world a favor. Don't mention the cup thing. *grimace*
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 9:17 PM
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Lazlo wrote: Oh...and do the world a favor. Don't mention the cup thing. *grimace*
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 9:19 PM
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sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: Oh...and do the world a favor. Don't mention the cup thing. *grimace* What, the one with the poop?
Ah! Naw! Stoppit!
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mtnrock
Oct 8, 2008, 1:10 AM
Post #44 of 45
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i know this is old but your not sposed to haul when some one is unconscious you have to do a rescue
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Lazlo
Oct 10, 2008, 3:49 AM
Post #45 of 45
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...We covered that earlier in the post.
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