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sed
Feb 11, 2009, 8:22 PM
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I'm curious if anyone knows of a glue-in bolt designed that is appropriate for use on lead? All the glue-ins I'm familiar with are strictly adhesive anchors but I'm wondering if anyone knows of a combination mechanical/adhesive bolt that would be useful for doing ground up first ascents?
I much prefer doing ground up work, especially for longer lines but unfortunately I also like choss/sandstone. If I could find a hybrid bolt that would protect me on the first ascent but also use epoxy that would be ideal. I would only be interested if it was superior to a strictly mechanical bolt.
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hafilax
Feb 11, 2009, 9:08 PM
Post #3 of 33
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If only Putty Nutz were still around.
Even 5 minute epoxy requires 24 hours to cure AFAIK.
I don't think crazy glue would be appropriate.
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miklaw
Feb 11, 2009, 9:50 PM
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In soft rock you can use this combo: a 4" 3/8" stainless coachscrew in a hole that is 7/16" for the first 1.5" and 5/16" for the remaining 2.5". Put in fast setting (polyester resin) glue and tap the bolt in till it bites in the narrow hole, then screw that in to full depth. This setup is very dependent on rock hardness.
In hard rock a stainless trubolt with some sealent will be overkill
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cracklover
Feb 11, 2009, 9:55 PM
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How about drilled angles with epoxy? The angle would be plenty strong enough on its own to hold your falls. Then after you've left, the epoxy cures.
GO
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USnavy
Feb 11, 2009, 10:05 PM
Post #6 of 33
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sed wrote: I'm curious if anyone knows of a glue-in bolt designed that is appropriate for use on lead? All the glue-ins I'm familiar with are strictly adhesive anchors but I'm wondering if anyone knows of a combination mechanical/adhesive bolt that would be useful for doing ground up first ascents? I much prefer doing ground up work, especially for longer lines but unfortunately I also like choss/sandstone. If I could find a hybrid bolt that would protect me on the first ascent but also use epoxy that would be ideal. I would only be interested if it was superior to a strictly mechanical bolt.
Well I can tell you one thing. We use all glue in anchors here in Hawaii. We have many hundreds of them installed throughout the island. If there is one thing I have learned its, preparation of the bolt and hole are absolutely crucial to the holding strength of the bolt. In tests, glue in bolts that have not been prepared properly pulled out with as little as .75 kN. On the other hand the very same bolt, when properly prepared, held almost 50 kN in cement.
Cleaning the hole and using the right adhesive is vital to the strength of the placement. Also preparing the bolt by threading it (if its not already threaded) is equally imperative. Installing glue in bolts is a lengthy process. Using some cheap ass quick set epoxy is a sure way to get you a dangerously weak placement. Those cheap quickset epoxies have a much lower tensile strength then industrial anchoring epoxy and they do not stand up to the elements like professional epoxies do. Do it right. Get the right epoxy. I can recommend you a specific brand and model that we use thats known to stand up to a corrosive atmosphere if you would like.
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sed
Feb 11, 2009, 11:23 PM
Post #7 of 33
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cracklover, I have considered the drilled angle but first, the price really adds up and second they are not stainless, and I would really like to use stainless as long as I'm placing with epoxy which will last about forever. Usnavy, I agree with you about surface preparation, hole cleaning, and glue. Those three factors are critical to the strength of the bolt and i don't intend to use quick setting glues.
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angry
Feb 11, 2009, 11:50 PM
Post #8 of 33
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I don't think it's responsible at all to put up a route on lead with glue ins.
I understand the desire to place your bolts on lead, I've managed to avoid ever placing a rap bolt myself. Still, it's almost certain to screw it up on lead.
If I were the guy establishing the route, I'd place 5/16" powerbolts on lead then come back down after sending the route and place glue ins using the same hole on rappel. Powerbolts come out fairly easy, if the cone gets stuck, no problem, you'll be widening the hole and it'll be easy to dig out. Especially on soft rock.
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acorneau
Feb 12, 2009, 4:19 AM
Post #9 of 33
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angry wrote: I If I were the guy establishing the route, I'd place 5/16" powerbolts on lead then come back down after sending the route and place glue ins using the same hole on rappel.
I was thinking the same thing but using the Fixe Triplex bolts instead, since they are very easy to remove.
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sed
Feb 12, 2009, 4:39 AM
Post #10 of 33
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Angry, I'm curious. Why do you feel it's not responsible? If you're going to return and place glue-ins in the same hole/spot then why not do it that way the first time? I mean no rudeness - just inquiring.
Scott
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angry
Feb 12, 2009, 4:50 AM
Post #11 of 33
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One of the very few times I'll agree with usnavy. It's too easy to screw up.
I've never placed a glue in but I have placed a lot of bolts on lead. It's hard to get the hole at the perfect angle, it's hard to clean the hole enough, almost certainly you're going drop your straw or forget your brush. If you're using wedge bolts or to a lesser extent sleeve anchors, these little things are minor and the bolt will be great. Too much fucking up with epoxy and you've got a dangerous bolt.
See where I'm going? If you don't fall, you'll have no idea it's a bad bolt.
My current fave is powers 3/8" stainless steel wedge for power drilling. 4000lbs shear, 4-6000 pullout depending on rock. Never spinner, ok if you don't go in deep, no parts to drop. Of course they aren't removable.
For hand-drilling the 5/16 powerbolt gets the job done and is quite removable for upgrades.
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clc
Feb 12, 2009, 4:58 AM
Post #12 of 33
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Sec it would be difficult do do all the prep for the hole. You might rush it and botch the glue-in if on lead.
This Hilti glue http://www.hilti.ca/...uctpic.jsp?OID=31871
cures in aprox 30minutes. So it will have to be a pretty easy route to hang out for half an hour between bolts.
Just do it properly and bolt on rappell. If you going to fuck the rock anyway by placing bolts you may as well do it right and leave your ego at the trailhead. What is the benefit to others if you bolt a route on lead?
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angry
Feb 12, 2009, 5:15 AM
Post #13 of 33
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clc wrote: Just do it properly and bolt on rappell. If you going to fuck the rock anyway by placing bolts you may as well do it right and leave your ego at the trailhead. What is the benefit to others if you bolt a route on lead?
To this, I disagree.
I hear this whole "bolting on lead is screwing up" argument all the time and I don't buy it.
The benefit, to answer your question, is to Sed. It's to the climber. Don't forget, not for one second, that climbing is a self centered sport. No matter what justification anyone makes, no matter how generous they are, no matter how many other climbers they've helped, a first ascensionist is self centered. It's way more fucking fun to bolt on lead, let him have his fun. If you don't enjoy bolting on lead, I posit that you don't enjoy route establishing, and should therefore not be establishing routes. It's not for everyone.
If it's too much work to go up and bolt it once then rap down and bolt it again, well then, maybe he's not cut out to do this route.
It's possible to do both, to relish in the gore of establishing a route ground up and to give the masses another sanitized park ride, all on the same route. It's only one more day of work, big deal. Don't give him shit for actually enjoying climbing... look, there's not a line at the roller coaster!!!
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clc
Feb 12, 2009, 4:32 PM
Post #14 of 33
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angry wrote: To this, I disagree. I was mostly referring to placing glue-ins on rappel, I wasn't really really talking about wedge bolts. My ground up stuff is usually on granite slab so I don't have to worry about messy with glue. My question " What is the benefit to others if you bolt a route on lead?". The others meaning not the route setter but all the climbers who will do the route. ( nothing to do with the Lost TV show) your right on the self centered stuff. I've been setting routes for about 15 yrs now, So I think its for me, I still usually do rap bolting. And I fully agree that ground up is way more fun and engaging just not the best for glue-in.
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jman
Feb 12, 2009, 5:23 PM
Post #15 of 33
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Not sure if anyone has used this kind of anchor for climbing, but in the construction industry we are using more self drilling anchors in concrete, where you drill a smaller hole and then use an impact wrench to set the anchor...Its like a large kwik con screw. Check out Hilti HUS-H system. Link to technical data.
http://www.us.hilti.com/..._Anchor(353-358).pdf
In looking up this information I also found a Hilti product that they call a OneStep self-drilling rock anchor with integrated adhesive cartridge, which is geared towards mining use. Couldn't locate any technical data in my quick search, but looks interesting.
http://www.hilti.com/...tep%20en%20w2989.pdf
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jman
Feb 12, 2009, 5:31 PM
Post #16 of 33
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Never mind about the OneStep product because it is wet installed and too large for climbing use.
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billcoe_
Feb 12, 2009, 5:32 PM
Post #17 of 33
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Need too much machinery and specialized installation tools for both of those. Angry nailed this one. There is no glue in for a leader. A removable bolt is the way to go if you must do it on lead and want a glue in for those who follows safety.
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angry
Feb 12, 2009, 5:33 PM
Post #18 of 33
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"clc wrote: angry wrote: To this, I disagree. I was mostly referring to placing glue-ins on rappel, I wasn't really really talking about wedge bolts. My ground up stuff is usually on granite slab so I don't have to worry about messy with glue. My question " What is the benefit to others if you bolt a route on lead?". The others meaning not the route setter but all the climbers who will do the route. ( nothing to do with the Lost TV show) your right on the self centered stuff. I've been setting routes for about 15 yrs now, So I think its for me, I still usually do rap bolting. And I fully agree that ground up is way more fun and engaging just not the best for glue-in.
Granite slab and basalt for me, no glue ins.
There is no advantage to the other climbers if a route is put in on rap or lead.
I do think that a route put in correctly on lead can be done just as well as on rap, if this is the case there is no disadvantage to anyone. I'm just sick of the rap bolters whining about how we should all only rap bolt.
For the record, if a route needs a bolt that I absolutely cannot place on lead, then I'd place it on rap. I've never come across this situation though.
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cracklover
Feb 12, 2009, 5:50 PM
Post #19 of 33
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angry wrote: "clc wrote: angry wrote: To this, I disagree. I was mostly referring to placing glue-ins on rappel, I wasn't really really talking about wedge bolts. My ground up stuff is usually on granite slab so I don't have to worry about messy with glue. My question " What is the benefit to others if you bolt a route on lead?". The others meaning not the route setter but all the climbers who will do the route. There is no advantage to the other climbers if a route is put in on rap or lead.
I disagree. In general, I think it hurts the quality and meaningfulness of the route for the bolts to be placed on rappel afterwards.
While I have no problem with a FA coming back and improving their bolts, I would much rather have the number of bolts stay a constant after the FA. Unless the FA party was doing something *way* under their lead ability, with the express purpose of adding bolts later.
Basically, if the leader could bolt the route ground up, at the edge of her ability, then I should either be able to lead using the same set of bolts, or else I'm not ready to lead that route.
GO
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yodadave
Feb 12, 2009, 5:58 PM
Post #20 of 33
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what about the leader using those liberty mountain removable bolts on lead and then placing the glue ins later.
Note: I've never used those removable bolts but always thought this scenario would be perfect for them.
Anyone used them for this??
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angry
Feb 12, 2009, 5:59 PM
Post #21 of 33
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cracklover wrote: angry wrote: "clc wrote: angry wrote: To this, I disagree. I was mostly referring to placing glue-ins on rappel, I wasn't really really talking about wedge bolts. My ground up stuff is usually on granite slab so I don't have to worry about messy with glue. My question " What is the benefit to others if you bolt a route on lead?". The others meaning not the route setter but all the climbers who will do the route. There is no advantage to the other climbers if a route is put in on rap or lead. I disagree. In general, I think it hurts the quality and meaningfulness of the route for the bolts to be placed on rappel afterwards. While I have no problem with a FA coming back and improving their bolts, I would much rather have the number of bolts stay a constant after the FA. Unless the FA party was doing something *way* under their lead ability, with the express purpose of adding bolts later. Basically, if the leader could bolt the route ground up, at the edge of her ability, then I should either be able to lead using the same set of bolts, or else I'm not ready to lead that route. GO
I agree with your disagreement with me. (new sig for you boku)
It's all in the definitions. By quality, I meant good bolts that would hold and a route that someone at the edge of their ability could lead. Basically, something that isn't a death route.
I believe you meant quality in terms of what the route is as a whole and as a testament to the style of climbing and to the climbers themselves. Bolts placed on lead totally lower the quality of a route in that definition.
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JimTitt
Feb 12, 2009, 6:50 PM
Post #22 of 33
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We did make some lead glue-ins once for use on long alpine routes where bolt-ins arenīt such a good long term solution because of freeze/thaw issues but they arenīt that easy. The problem with normal bolt-ins is there is not enough room for the glue mass so it doesnīt harden properly so we machined spiral grooves in the bolt which worked well.
BUT with the added cost of this and the cost of wasting glue and a nozzle every time the price got out of hand, you could be fitting 16mm bolts by this time plus all the hassle of carrying glue, cleaning etc.
We looked for convenient small dosed glue systems but they just arenīt out there, the mixing is the problem. We also tested the epoxy putty that you get from hardware stores and knead together- itīs utterly useless.
Basically you either have to risk climbing on a not very safe bolt untril the glue sets or do as the others say and use removable bolts until you get a belay then abseil and glue properly, or of course just use removable bolts and strip the route.
And , as has been pointed out, good drilling and cleaning is vital.
Leaving crap gear in the cliff for others to take care of is not my idea of responsible climbing.
Jim
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yodadave
Feb 13, 2009, 2:11 PM
Post #23 of 33
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just a wee bump to see if anyone had any opinions on the use of those liberty mountain removable bolts i mentioned ????
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clc
Feb 13, 2009, 4:18 PM
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They are called RB's. I know a few people that use them for aid climbing. Then if they want to free the pitch you can drill it deeper and place a real bolt.
Big problem though the RB can get permanently. stuck if you fall on it. Then you have an inferior placement. An expensive shitty bolt.
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