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Tree_wrangler
Feb 11, 2009, 3:01 PM
Post #51 of 61
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I guess that I'm just trying to send the message that YOU ALL OWN THE GOVERNMENT, not the other way around.
The idea that the government is an entity seperate from yourselves is invented and perpetuated by private individuals who want your communal resources in their personal bank accounts.
If you don't like the way the government is managing this, that, or the other, then please get involved. It does make a difference.
Most of us are willing to hear you out.
That said, some of us are squashed by regulation, in our personal lives (religion, other personal freedoms, private landholding restrictions).
Those regulations are, largely a result of DEMOCRACY,which, unfortunately, means that simple majority rule crushes the rights of many.
But, in what other system do we even have a chance at having our voices counted? I'm open to suggestions, although I have no power to make a change in my position.
We're listening. If not us, then I'M listening.
cheers to all.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Feb 11, 2009, 5:08 PM
Post #52 of 61
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I'm currently living in Nebraska and three things:
Grasslands are a rich biodiverse area, just way way more booring than a forrest.
We all benefit from preserving history. You don't need a direct genetic or cultural link. The Buffalo Soldier exhibit on the plains was enlightening.
Nebraska does have WMA with pit toilets. It isn't all parking lots by ponds.
No access issues here.
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dead_horse_flats
Feb 12, 2009, 3:38 AM
Post #53 of 61
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Tree_wrangler wrote: Most of us are willing to hear you out.
Hey Tree_Wrangler,
I hope you don't take any of this personally, and please hold onto your youthful idealism instead of becoming a bitter old jerk like the rest of us. Maybe in a couple of years you can get promoted to regional manager for the Rocky Mountain Region (R2) and then provide a counter weight to the anti-environmentalism that plagues this area.
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dingus
Feb 12, 2009, 5:08 AM
Post #54 of 61
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Tree_wrangler wrote: I guess that I'm just trying to send the message that YOU ALL OWN THE GOVERNMENT, not the other way around.
Oh I've always acted this way (even though it isn't true).
See I'm just not a team player. I actually get a little bit insulted when I'm addressed in part as 'Team.'
I actually fucking hate it.
So I row my own boat. I exercise my public land trust fellowship as an INDIVIDUAL.
Nonetheless I have never felt that it was ME against public land managers.
I do feel the more we avoid one another the best for all.... haha
(not you personally)
DMT
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 12, 2009, 2:16 PM
Post #55 of 61
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In reply to: Hey Tree_Wrangler, I hope you don't take any of this personally, and please hold onto your youthful idealism instead of becoming a bitter old jerk like the rest of us. Maybe in a couple of years you can get promoted to regional manager for the Rocky Mountain Region (R2) and then provide a counter weight to the anti-environmentalism that plagues this area.
I'm poorly suited for the job. I happen to agree with much of what's been said that I've argued against. I'm a pretty individualistic person, who believes that physical, real world product in an economy is the bottom line, that much in the political arena is bullshit, that anti-environmentalism exists, etc. The Regional and Washington Office environments are SO politically correct, with everyone constantly trying not to "make waves" etc.....
I got into the Forest Service so that I could have a relationship with the land, and with the people who love it. I'm wary of rising too high in the ranks, and losing that physical connection.
Politically, I'm in a tiny minority of folks who frequently feel oppressed by the Democratic majority. Many of my friends don't, or won't vote because they feel that their values will NEVER be recognized (much the way that many remaining Native Americans feel about the political process.....and their ability to be represented in it).
But, I've managed to embrace the agency. To try to understand the historical chain of decisions that got us here, to understand the intimate details of how it all works now, and to finally recognize that, even if inexorably slow, no change will happen if folks like me don't sit down at the table with other personalities that I used to find intolerable, and try to find some common ground on which to base a working relationship.
In my little microcosm, in my little part of the world, I can see it working. I just wish that more folks, especially those who feel unrepresented, would sit down at the table too. Truly, if everybody just voted in this country, the entire political climate would be something totally different than what we've seen in the past eight years.
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 12, 2009, 2:18 PM
Post #56 of 61
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In reply to: Oh I've always acted this way (even though it isn't true). See I'm just not a team player. I actually get a little bit insulted when I'm addressed in part as 'Team.' I actually fucking hate it
Me too.
In reply to: So I row my own boat. I exercise my public land trust fellowship as an INDIVIDUAL
Sounds fine to me.
In reply to: Nonetheless I have never felt that it was ME against public land managers.
That's good, because that wouldn't be an accurate representation of the relationship.
In reply to: I do feel the more we avoid one another the best for all
Agreed. One value I feel we lack as a society is the value of personal space, and the freedom to truly be individuals, even if that means that I, as an individual, am absolutely off the deep end.
Instead, we have......"You're an individual...drink Pepsi".
(This post was edited by Tree_wrangler on Feb 12, 2009, 2:28 PM)
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Adk
Feb 12, 2009, 2:42 PM
Post #57 of 61
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Just for the record. Clear cutting is not always a bad thing!
Scope and scale are items that have to be assessed in every operation.
The damage from the massive clear cuts this nation has endured is irreversible.
Generally speaking clear cuts have been performed for one purpose, big money. Biodiversity should be the only reason for clear cutting and most people don't even know the definition of clear cutting. They think it's go in an harvest every tree seen.
I live in a state where historically more acres have been clear cut than any other state. We are in a crisis
in some of those locations due to lack of small scale clear cutting and general logging practices.
http://www.adirondack-park.net/.../article14-text.html
What was this thread about to begin with?
Points well made TW!
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 12, 2009, 2:55 PM
Post #58 of 61
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You're absolutely right. I've seen some modern "clear cut" practices (one example locally, is where we're about to clear cut 100 acres of doug fir that has encroached into what had previously been old-growth white-oak savannah. The area should be grassy with widely spaced 500 year old oaks, but, after we booted the Natives out, and discontinued Native-initiated burns to maintain the habitat, doug fir seeded in, overtoped the oaks, and the habitat was lost. We hope to replace the savannah ecosystem (which is the most at-risk ecosystem in the pacific northwest) by cutting out the 100 year old doug fir, seeding in a diverse native savannah mix, and replanting oaks sourced to seed from the best specimens of the local population.)
But, that's a discussion that probably belongs on a different forum, on a different website.
Ciao.
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billcoe_
Feb 12, 2009, 5:25 PM
Post #59 of 61
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
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Tree_wrangler wrote: I happen to agree with much of what's been said that I've argued against. I'm a pretty individualistic person, who believes that physical, real world product in an economy is the bottom line, that much in the political arena is bullshit, that anti-environmentalism exists, etc. The Regional and Washington Office environments are SO politically correct, with everyone constantly trying not to "make waves" etc..... I got into the Forest Service so that I could have a relationship with the land, and with the people who love it. I'm wary of rising too high in the ranks, and losing that physical connection. Politically, I'm in a tiny minority of folks who frequently feel oppressed by the Democratic majority. Many of my friends don't, or won't vote because they feel that their values will NEVER be recognized (much the way that many remaining Native Americans feel about the political process.....and their ability to be represented in it). But, I've managed to embrace the agency. To try to understand the historical chain of decisions that got us here, to understand the intimate details of how it all works now, and to finally recognize that, even if inexorably slow, no change will happen if folks like me don't sit down at the table with other personalities that I used to find intolerable, and try to find some common ground on which to base a working relationship. In my little microcosm, in my little part of the world, I can see it working. I just wish that more folks, especially those who feel unrepresented, would sit down at the table too. Truly, if everybody just voted in this country, the entire political climate would be something totally different than what we've seen in the past eight years.
You sound like you have plenty of common sense, and that's something that always seems to be missing and to be at the root of what pisses me off anytime I get caught up in the big bureaucratic grind. It could very well be that in this instance, some dickhead has stepped way over the line of stupidity: unfortunately, speaking only for myself I bring my own baggage and perceptions to the table. I'm tired of seeing big government bring this expensive policially correct process and lock up an area for no reason and grind out a process that truly seems to be set up to ensure that government workers keep their jobs and expand their budgets. Like you, I believe that any archeological site should be preserved for future generations. I was reading between the lines on this one and may have totally (although I suspect otherwise) missed the mark and the truth. Occasionally my knee just jerks right up and slams into my jaw. Such was the case here. I suspect in reality we see eye to eye on much of this.
Thank you for putting this on here.
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climbryn
Feb 12, 2009, 6:04 PM
Post #60 of 61
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Posts: 31
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What ever happened to this crag in the original post? got a little off topic...did the bolters get caught?
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 17, 2009, 4:30 PM
Post #61 of 61
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Registered: Feb 8, 2007
Posts: 403
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Don't know.
You can always call cumberland RD and ask, although the "law enforcement" involved might have actually been a local deputy or sheriff.
If they have been caught, I hope that they had a good story and attitude.
If they didn't have a "story", I hope that the sheriff/agency goes easy on them, or chooses not to mess with them at all. I'm aware of a couple incidents where someone had bolted and built trails, and were simply told to stop building trails when agency employees stumbled onto the crag.
I hope that's the case here.
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