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thegrassr00ts


Mar 5, 2009, 5:52 PM
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Core Training Question
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I've been really working on my core, trying to get ready for the steep stuff this summer, namely Predator at Rumney (Hell Yeah) and I have a core question. I train my core on my rock rings and do an exercise, not sure what they are called, but I hang bent arm and bring my knees to my elbows about ten times a set. The other exercise I do is body-L's and my question is it more effective to simply hold a body-L until failure or should I be bringing my legs up until I am steady, then lowering down and repeating? Anyone got any info?


roy_hinkley_jr


Mar 5, 2009, 7:25 PM
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Mostly superficial core stuff there. First one works the outer abdominals fairly well as long as you're really curling pubis to sternum. Second one isn't really a core exercise since it's mostly hip flexors, plus isometrics are so angle specific that training that way is a waste of time. None of these are really working your spine muscles, pelvic floor, or much of the side abdominals (read: 3 out of the 4 core components).

Lots of frou-frou "core exercises" are touted these days but few if any beat barbell squats if you're serious about training (4 out of 4, plus legs).


(This post was edited by roy_hinkley_jr on Mar 5, 2009, 7:26 PM)


thegrassr00ts


Mar 5, 2009, 7:36 PM
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Barbell squats may be effective for getting a cut six pack but I really don't see how it translates to climbing. I don't often have to stand up with a bunch of weight on my back while on a hard climb, but very often I have to cut my feet and place them elsewhere. I feel like a Body-L relates more closely to that movement than a barbell squat. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, barbell squats would also force your body to gain mass, which I'm trying to prevent. While I don't disagree that a barbell squat may more fully exercise all the aspects of the core, it really doesn't strike me as relevant climbing training. It's the same as the pull-ups debate, sure being able to do a lot of pull-ups can't hurt your climbing, but how often do you encounter a situation on a climb where your hanging from two jugs with no feet?


ryanb


Mar 5, 2009, 7:53 PM
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The people who swear by squats generally each for the ice tools on 5.9+.

Will Gadd, Ben Moon and others say that the only real way to build useful climbing core strength off the wall is to work on front levers. You are basically already doing the first stage of a front lever progression. Ben Moon's site has a nice article that might give you some other ideas: http://usa.moonclimbing.com/school-room/core-body-missing-link-c-334_365.html

Some times i do push ups on gymnastic rings set close to the floor...if you also do iron crosses and raise your arms above your head this really works the core.


roy_hinkley_jr


Mar 5, 2009, 7:59 PM
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You only put on mass if you train wrong, that's a common misconception among climbers. Working the entire kinetic chain at high resistance is actually superb training for climbing because it makes everything you do easier. Your hanging leg raise isn't as good as you think (yes, it burns) because that isn't really what you do on the rock (again very angle specific when doing isometric) and your curls already get the hip flexors.

Pull-up debate is actually unrelated because a) grip strength is most often the limiting factor b) arms/upper back are already trained by climbing and c) the angle is wrong for optimal training.


thegrassr00ts


Mar 5, 2009, 8:04 PM
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I don't know how you can say that leg raises don't occur on the rock. Every roof I've ever pulled involves some sort of leg raise or body-L like motion. While I agree with you training against resistance, such as weighted dead hangs or pull ups is a very successful method of training, I just can't agree that free weight training is the most efficient training for climbing. Again, the strength gains made from free weight training may help marginally and certainly don't hurt, however, the training could be more specific to mimic climbing. The optimal would be a front lever, but until I build enough strength to do them, I need other hanging exercises that both train the muscle group and somehow relate to climbing.


roy_hinkley_jr


Mar 5, 2009, 8:17 PM
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Ah, but that's the point. What you're talking about really is a poor simulation of climbing. Think of Frenchies for pull-ups. Burns like hell but basically a waste of time because you need to hold at every potential angle to get the desired results. Your time would be better spent doing something that makes you brutally strong all over quickly and the rest of the time working technique. 15 minutes of heavy barbell squats would be better for your core, and your climbing, than an hour of hanging on rings. What you are doing only works the front side. But on the rock, you need the rear side muscles for pulling your weight in and pressing with feet, the side muscles for twisting and extending, etc. It's an entire kinetic chain in action, not just the front part of your core.


thegrassr00ts


Mar 5, 2009, 8:23 PM
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We have an inherent difference in our approach to climbing. You seem to believe that you can take the most efficient exercise of a muscle group and then climb, thus gaining strength during the workout and perfecting technique and supplementing the strength during the climbing. I don't think they should be separated. The most efficient way to strengthen muscles is not necessarily the best way to train for climbing. Gaining strength through the imitation of climbing movements gives you the most "useable" strength. At least that's what I think.


boracus


Mar 5, 2009, 8:38 PM
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If you're going to spend the hand strength required to hand onto the rock rings, THE best "core" strength training you can do is to climb terrain that mimicks the angle you'll encounter on your summer projects.

If you're hellbent on doing some core strengthening while you're lifing... I prefer to use exercises like One leg squats, standing military press or a standing one arm row while standing on one leg. (the weight is one hand and you stand on the other leg) This forces you to use your entire core to stabilize/balance yourself while you perform the lift. I'm going to have to be in Rons camp on this one though, if you go heavy (apprx 90% of 1RM) on something like a Dead Lift you won't put on mass and the core strength you'll develope will be very helpful during climbing.

Part of the core strength misunderstanding is that as far as strength and the ability to use the muscles between the bottom of your ribs and the top of your pelvis to aid you in climbing, Lumbar extension is much more useful than spinal flexion as created by the abs. If you think about how you actually use your core when you climb your extending your low back when you reach for the next hold, especially on steep terrain. The other half of the "core" IMO is the muscles that stabilize and control the scapulae. These mucsles are the literal tie in between your arms and your axial skeleton. Most climbers would gain a lot of functional "core" strength for climbing if they would spend some time strengthening their scapular stabilizers and balancing out their shoulder strength in general.
Hope that gives you some ideas on things to try.
cheers, BA


aerili


Mar 5, 2009, 9:29 PM
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thegrassr00ts wrote:
and my question is it more effective to simply hold a body-L until failure or should I be bringing my legs up until I am steady, then lowering down and repeating?

Personally, I would do controlled reps, not hold til failure. Mostly because this kind of exercise can really put massive shear stress on the vertebral bodies through the action of the hip flexors.

In layman's terms, that means these types of exercises are possible to fuck up your back when done too aggressively/too intensely. No need to train to failure, even when using a method of reps.



thegrassroots wrote:
Barbell squats may be effective for getting a cut six pack

No; loss of body fat is effective for getting a cut six pack. Once that's achieved, the type of exercises you are doing are more likely to develop more definition in a six pack, not barbell squats. Why? Barbell squats typically work a deeper and more "all around" set of musculature; there is less concentrated focus on the rectus abdominis, i.e. the six pack.



Do knee-ups, L-hangs, and front levers work the real core stabilizers in the torso? I can't find any specific data on that right now (probably because it's pretty hard to thread EMG wires into people's TVA and multifidus muscles, if they'd even let you). My guess is that due to their intensity and the torso's requirement for "bracing" in these exercises, they do. The downside is that if this is all you do, you run a risk of major imbalance of strength between abs and back, not to mention cumulative shear stresses I pointed out earlier on the spine itself.



roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
It's an entire kinetic chain in action, not just the front part of your core.

Take-home message: good core training takes more than ab exercises.


ryanb


Mar 5, 2009, 9:48 PM
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Balance is very important in building muscles but I disagree with the idea that lumbar extension is more helpful then abb strength. I have been on a number of routes... everything from slaby granite 5.11+ to overhanging boulder problems that make my abs absolutely burn but i have never been on a route that makes my back sore.

I would venture so far as to say that a lot of harde-then-5.10-and-outside-of-the-gym climbing involves hanging onto bad holds and using your abs to paste your feet on worse ones trying support enough of your weight that you can shift your body around and move one hand...much less so in the gym or on easy stuff where the feet are hugh.


fresh


Mar 5, 2009, 10:00 PM
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ryanb wrote:
The people who swear by squats generally develop stronger diaphragms, a stronger core, and improve balance and stability.
seriously. for general fitness, squats are the king of exercises. but for climbing they'd probably be no more than a supplement.


(This post was edited by fresh on Mar 5, 2009, 10:00 PM)


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 5, 2009, 11:17 PM
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If you want to do squats, the overhead barbell squat is generally regarded as a better developer of core strength than the regular barbell squat:

http://www.nsca-lift.org/Perform/Issues/0306.pdf, p. 19

I have no idea whether this results in better climbing performance, but you'll certainly have a stronger core.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


thegrassr00ts


Mar 6, 2009, 12:13 AM
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This is why I love RC.com. I ask a question, sixteen different opinions that circumvent the question. Aerili is the only one who actually answered the question directly being that reps of Body-L's would be more efficient than holding until failure. Although, there is an overwhelming opinion that this is insufficient core training. Which leads me to my next question...anyone got any suggestions for a core training plan or have had success with anything in particular?


theguy


Mar 6, 2009, 12:43 AM
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thegrassr00ts wrote:
This is why I love RC.com...

it's like "Groundhog Day" all week long


Rufsen


Mar 6, 2009, 1:32 AM
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thegrassr00ts wrote:
have had success with anything in particular?

Steep bouldering. Whenever i try it again after a few weeks of my abs are sore for a few days, that rarely happens when i do ab-exercises. And i can keep my feet on smaller holds when i do long reaches on steep walls then i was able to before, but that might improvement in technique.


fresh


Mar 6, 2009, 2:50 PM
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thegrassr00ts wrote:
I ask a question, sixteen different opinions that circumvent the question.

In reply to:
anyone got any suggestions for a core training plan or have had success with anything in particular?

.......

if you want a good exercise for controlling breathing, try breathing ladders. perform one rep of an exercise that creates oxygen demand, like a heavy KB/DB swing. breath once. perform two reps. breath twice. all the way up to 20 and back down.

you should make sure that the exercise you choose produces enough oxygen demand. KB swings are good, but pullups are probably bad, because your muscles will crap out too fast. weighted squats would also work. see what works for you.


boracus


Mar 6, 2009, 7:17 PM
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R-
The reality of how the core is used during climbing is that all of the muscles which form the corset like structure between bottom of the rib cage and the top of the pelvis (Quadratus Lumborum, Int and Ext Obliques, Trans Abdominus, Rect. Ab., Erector Spinae group) all act in a concerted effort to stabilize the lumbar spine as we perform climbing movements. So in this respect I agree that an overall balance of these muscles is the most important...
but the fact is that during climbing this "core" is used mostly in an isometric fashion. Rarely are these mucsles called upon to create gross flexion, extension or rotation of the spine, and of all of these movements spinal extension is by far the most common. This is why I recommended the use of unilateral exercises while standing on one foot and also dead lifts. These types of exercises most closely mimic the way that the "core" musculature is actually used in climbing.

This is not to say that isometric contractions can't cause a significant anaerbic burn, in your case the abdominal groups may be the weakest link in your core and so they fatigue out the first and therefore are most noticeable.

The second part of your post illustrates a common misperception about how the core is used during climbing and also why I include the scapular stabilizers/prime movers in the topic of core strength. It is not actually your abs that are being used to paste your feet to desperate little footholds on steep terrain. This is why front levers are a popular method for training the core. When doing a front lever (which mechanically is what your doing to paste your feet onto a steep wall) your core contracts isometrically to keep your spine stable/stiff while your Latissimus Dorsi, Long head of triceps, Pector group and Trapezius all act to lever your body from the shouder girdle (glenohumeral and scapulothoracic joints)

Sorry for not being more clear the first time through. I think most climbers looking to improve their core strength typically have a lot of strength in the corset portion of the core but have not invested time into training the muscles which stabilize the scapulae, consequently the shoulder girdle is the weak link in most climbers core strength. It's also part of the reason that climbers experience so many shoulder problems.
cheers, BA


rockprodigy


Mar 13, 2009, 1:39 AM
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I hesitate to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the OP may be referring to the motion you make after your feet pop off the hold, and you need to "kick" them back up to get on the holds again. In that case, you are not doing a front lever (during a front lever, your center of mass must remain directly below your contact with the rock - your hands - which rotates your forearms away from the rock, significantly reducing the mechanical advantage on the holds...front levers are really only practical from huge-mongus holds, like pull up bars).

I don't know of an actual application of the front lever in climbing, but I'm sure a creative person, given enough time could gin something up. When your feet are actually on the holds, you are not using the same muscles as you would for a front lever. You should be using your back, and hamstrings to drive your toes into the holds. These muscle groups are not used in a front lever. You might be using your delts (as in a rowing motion) to pull yourself into the rock to move out of this position, but I don't think you're lats are involved.

Front levers are fun to try, though.


lithiummetalman


Mar 13, 2009, 8:54 PM
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Kinetic Chain exercises

Not quite clear...

Should one use a combination of open and closed kinetic chain exercises?

How does one properly strengthen the scrapular stabilizers?

Lumbar extensions?

For Aerili, Ron Hinkley Jr, Boracus, Onceahardman, or anyone else, in your professional and educated opinion (this one is going to be difficult b/c there will many varying opinions)

What would you consider the most important and mostly needed/missed aspects for properly balanced training of the core AND for the average layman (i.e us poor saps), how should one prioritize, organize, apply, and focus these concepts into one's training, i.e example of exercises /workout schemes utilizing weights , body-weight, or combinations.

I apologize upfront for the flammability of such a question(s), but in I believe that in general, that the general layman (i.e. me) can digest parts of the equation, but have trouble processing the variables into a complete logical scheme

I believe getting to the core of the question, will be great in forming a core answer (and hopefully a core consensus) on core training!


boracus


Mar 18, 2009, 3:41 PM
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L-
Awesome question. I hope that a few others chime in since, like you said opinions will vary.
Just to give a little bit of perspective on where I'm coming from w/ my answer... I'm operating under the assumption that climbers training their core are doing so in the hopes that it will lead to performance gains and are not necessarily concerned w/ injury prevention/rehabilitation.

So here goes: I think that the most needed aspect of core strength is shoulder stability. I know that this sounds weird but hear me out. From what I see, climbers usually have plenty of strength in the abdominal muscles and spinal erectors but lack strength in the shoulder girdle.
When I say shoulder girdle I'm talking mostly about the Trapezius(mostly lower), Rhomboids, Serratus Anterior, Latissimus Dorsi, and the Pec Major and Minor. These muscles all are involved in scapular stabilization to varying degrees.

I include the scapular portion of the shoulder girdle (versus the Glenohumeral joint) into the realm of core strength becuase mechanically it functions more like the rest of the core during climbing rather than as a primary force generator to move the climber to the next hold.
So basically what I'm saying here is that just as your hand is responsible for attaching you to the climbing hold so that you can manipulate your body around it; the scapula with all it's associated stabilizing musculature is what attaches your arm to your body. If this linkage is weak then it becomes the limiting factor in how much force you can apply from your body through your arm to move around the climbing hold.
Usually a lack of this type of strength isn't noticeable when the holds are hard to hang onto because your grip strength becomes the limiting factor. However when climbing steep terrain on big holds scapular stabilizing strength can very easily become the limiting factor, classic examples of moves that exploit this weakness are long cross through moves (especially when climbing in a face on/open body position moving off of a gaston), standing up into underclings and using flagging body positions.

How to train these muscles:
Ultimately climbing is going to be the best way to strengthen this area. This may sound overly simplistic but simply being aware of how you're using your scapulae during climbing is what it comes down to. When I'm dealing w/ patients who have shoulder injuries we talk a lot about scapular motion. The thing I consistently say is that unless your outside and are really psyched on sending something you should never hang on your shoulders.

Sure this takes much more energy and you may fatigue sooner and not be able to climb as hard but realistically if you're climbing near your limit your going to be engaging these muscles anyway to accomplish the moves on the route/problem. So by climbing with your scapula pulled down away from your ears you'll build more endurance in these muscles.
Perhaps most importantly when hanging relaxed on the shoulder the Glenohumeral joint is put in a position of impingment, the ball of the humerus is not centered in the joint and therefore any motion of the joint causes friction between structures which can lead to a variety of shoulder problems from bursitis and tendonitis to osteoarthritis.

I definitely like using free weights to train the scapular stabilizers since free weights present a much more controlled and quantifiable environment than climbing. The primary exercises that I use to strengthen this area are:
One Arm Rows,
One Arm Overhead Press while standing on the opposite leg,
Dumb bell Bench Press (one side at a time)
Supine Tricep Press w/ Dumb bell
I do everything unilaterally becuase that allows me to really focus on how my scapula is behaving when under load. The scapula should never be forced to any extreme of it's range of motion, the muscles surround the scapula should act as shock absorbers to maintain the scapula in a "neutral" position. The easiest way to find neutral is to stand up nice and tall and then simply turn your hands so that your palms face forward. You should feel you scapulae drop a little and move slightly toward your spine, this is usually accompanied by an feeling of opening through the chest.
That's neutral and is where your shoulders should be when lifting and climbing. I realize that you won't be able to keep your shoulders there all the time when climbing but keeping them there as much as possible will help keep your shoulders healthy and also help develope more "core" strength.

Well that's my take on where most climbers are in need of core strength but that may just be the population of people I see and be irrelevant in a lot of situations. Hopefully my thoughts were somewhat coherent. Please get in touch w/ me if you've got a question or a point you'd like clarified.
cheers,
BA


Grizvok


Mar 19, 2009, 8:43 AM
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boracus wrote:
L-
Awesome question. I hope that a few others chime in since, like you said opinions will vary.
Just to give a little bit of perspective on where I'm coming from w/ my answer... I'm operating under the assumption that climbers training their core are doing so in the hopes that it will lead to performance gains and are not necessarily concerned w/ injury prevention/rehabilitation.

So here goes: I think that the most needed aspect of core strength is shoulder stability. I know that this sounds weird but hear me out. From what I see, climbers usually have plenty of strength in the abdominal muscles and spinal erectors but lack strength in the shoulder girdle.
When I say shoulder girdle I'm talking mostly about the Trapezius(mostly lower), Rhomboids, Serratus Anterior, Latissimus Dorsi, and the Pec Major and Minor. These muscles all are involved in scapular stabilization to varying degrees.

I include the scapular portion of the shoulder girdle (versus the Glenohumeral joint) into the realm of core strength becuase mechanically it functions more like the rest of the core during climbing rather than as a primary force generator to move the climber to the next hold.
So basically what I'm saying here is that just as your hand is responsible for attaching you to the climbing hold so that you can manipulate your body around it; the scapula with all it's associated stabilizing musculature is what attaches your arm to your body. If this linkage is weak then it becomes the limiting factor in how much force you can apply from your body through your arm to move around the climbing hold.
Usually a lack of this type of strength isn't noticeable when the holds are hard to hang onto because your grip strength becomes the limiting factor. However when climbing steep terrain on big holds scapular stabilizing strength can very easily become the limiting factor, classic examples of moves that exploit this weakness are long cross through moves (especially when climbing in a face on/open body position moving off of a gaston), standing up into underclings and using flagging body positions.

How to train these muscles:
Ultimately climbing is going to be the best way to strengthen this area. This may sound overly simplistic but simply being aware of how you're using your scapulae during climbing is what it comes down to. When I'm dealing w/ patients who have shoulder injuries we talk a lot about scapular motion. The thing I consistently say is that unless your outside and are really psyched on sending something you should never hang on your shoulders.

Sure this takes much more energy and you may fatigue sooner and not be able to climb as hard but realistically if you're climbing near your limit your going to be engaging these muscles anyway to accomplish the moves on the route/problem. So by climbing with your scapula pulled down away from your ears you'll build more endurance in these muscles.
Perhaps most importantly when hanging relaxed on the shoulder the Glenohumeral joint is put in a position of impingment, the ball of the humerus is not centered in the joint and therefore any motion of the joint causes friction between structures which can lead to a variety of shoulder problems from bursitis and tendonitis to osteoarthritis.

I definitely like using free weights to train the scapular stabilizers since free weights present a much more controlled and quantifiable environment than climbing. The primary exercises that I use to strengthen this area are:
One Arm Rows,
One Arm Overhead Press while standing on the opposite leg,
Dumb bell Bench Press (one side at a time)
Supine Tricep Press w/ Dumb bell
I do everything unilaterally becuase that allows me to really focus on how my scapula is behaving when under load. The scapula should never be forced to any extreme of it's range of motion, the muscles surround the scapula should act as shock absorbers to maintain the scapula in a "neutral" position. The easiest way to find neutral is to stand up nice and tall and then simply turn your hands so that your palms face forward. You should feel you scapulae drop a little and move slightly toward your spine, this is usually accompanied by an feeling of opening through the chest.
That's neutral and is where your shoulders should be when lifting and climbing. I realize that you won't be able to keep your shoulders there all the time when climbing but keeping them there as much as possible will help keep your shoulders healthy and also help develope more "core" strength.

Well that's my take on where most climbers are in need of core strength but that may just be the population of people I see and be irrelevant in a lot of situations. Hopefully my thoughts were somewhat coherent. Please get in touch w/ me if you've got a question or a point you'd like clarified.
cheers,
BA

Great post, but I have to say that I disagree with your assessment if you will of what to do about your shoulders. I think that climbing with your shoulders pushed down like that would cause multiple other problems such as being "limber." Climbing like that just gives you more rhythm and smoothness in your controlled motions. And secondly, I think tensing your shoulders up like that (which would definitely be something I considered "unnatural") would cause you to overgrip the rock and just pump out quickly.


boracus


Mar 19, 2009, 3:22 PM
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Re: [Grizvok] Core Training Question [In reply to]
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G-
You make a good point, this is where I run into conflict when trying to help out climbers. My reply is going to dip a little into injury rehab/prevention territory so it may not be completely applicable if you're shoulders are 100%.

I'll agree w/ you straight off about the neutral scapula position (keeping the scapula down away from the ears and generating enough tension in the rhomboids and middle traps to keep the GH joint from being supported by it's joint capsule and ligature) interferring w/ fluid climbing movement. If you limit the scapular motion w/ muscle tension you'll sacrifce some of the fluidity and range of motion available for climbing movement.

This is where the injury prevention point enters the discussion. If the scapula is pulled to the extremes of it's range of motion you risk putting increased stress on the tissues that come in contact at these extremes, it could be boney surfaces contacting each other, tendons being ground between boney surfaces or joint capsule and ligamentous tissue working harder than they should to support the joint.

There's a trade off between using the musculature to support the shoulder and minimize injury to structures that take lot longer to heal than a simple muscle strain versus having a wider range of motion available during climbing. This was my unexplained point when I had originally said that if it's the difference between sending the project and not then definitely, use all available resources. I'm simply trying to say that there can be consequences to using your scapula this way every time you climb.

The fact is that as climbers get on problems/routes that approach their maximum ability in terms of strength requirements; the muscles that control and support the scapulae are often the weakest link in the chain that conects the climber's axial skeleton to the climbing hold in the climbers hand. So as you climb closer to your personal difficulty limits you'll necessarily have to use the scapular musculature to keep you on the wall and movement fluidity will suffer. (climbing on slopers on terrain past vertical is a great example of this)
All I'm saying is that scapular strength and awareness of scapular position is another tool/technique in the climbers overall repertoire and that climbers (especially those that like climbing steep juggy routes who have good abdominal strenght but feel that their core strength is a limiting factor and/or those climbers that have nagging shoulder problems) should devote some time to this aspect of their physical abilities.

As to the question of whether maintaining tension in the scapular stabilizers will cause the climber to over grip and pump out faster? That is constantly a problem in climbing and I don't feel that the kind of tension I'm talking about maintaining is going to cause any more problems than the tension needed in general to stay on the wall.
No matter where you generate tension in your body to maintain yourself on the climbing surface this is going to have an effect on how hard you're gripping, as will your level of anxiety... that is just part of teaching yourself to not over grip, whatever the cause.
Griz brings up a very good point w/ the trade off between scapular strength and fluid climbing movement as well as limiting shoulder range of motion but I don't know a way around it.
Thanks for the question to make me explain myself a little better,
cheers, BA


Grizvok


Mar 19, 2009, 4:53 PM
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Re: [boracus] Core Training Question [In reply to]
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I also wanted to quickly note that I actually AGREE that shoulder stability plays an incredibly large role in core strength.


lithiummetalman


Apr 7, 2009, 11:46 PM
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Re: [Grizvok] Core Training Question [In reply to]
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Sorry for the late reply, thanks!

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