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TheSl0th
Mar 20, 2009, 12:23 AM
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so, i've been taking a low key trad course, but im still not satisfied with my placement techniques. how doable do you guys think setting up a top-rope then rappelling down, sport climbing up tied to both top-rope and a sport lead. placing gear and falling on it (on purpose) to test placement and stability. keep in mind im tied in to a top rope as well. (this will require two belayers and a set of different commands for each. i think its do-able, i just want another opinion. granted i will be training using this method for a while and not just making a fast transition to trad/multi pitch. essentially, i want to lead trad but need to perfect gear placement before that ever happens. good plan?
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karmiclimber
Mar 20, 2009, 12:27 AM
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It might be simpler to aid climb. Thats what I did. Granted, I fell off with trad and my advice will probably be flamed into the ground. But it made me feel more confident with my placement and I felt better knowing out of the 1,000 pieces of protection I put in, maybe 1 would hold, haha. Your method sounds good too, but complicated.
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patmay81
Mar 20, 2009, 12:37 AM
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karmiclimber wrote: It might be simpler to aid climb. Thats what I did. Granted, I fell off with trad and my advice will probably be flamed into the ground. But it made me feel more confident with my placement and I felt better knowing out of the 1,000 pieces of protection I put in, maybe 1 would hold, haha. Your method sounds good too, but complicated. this is almost exactly the advice I was going to give. intentionally falling on gear can get expensive, it wears gear out as well as ropes. just to some clean aid, thats how I was taught gear placement way back when... clean aid with a toprope back up. you can make aiders and daisies really cheap out of webbing and cord.
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petsfed
Mar 20, 2009, 12:38 AM
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TheSl0th wrote: so, i've been taking a low key trad course, but im still not satisfied with my placement techniques. how doable do you guys think setting up a top-rope then rappelling down, sport climbing up tied to both top-rope and a sport lead. placing gear and falling on it (on purpose) to test placement and stability. keep in mind im tied in to a top rope as well. (this will require two belayers and a set of different commands for each. i think its do-able, i just want another opinion. granted i will be training using this method for a while and not just making a fast transition to trad/multi pitch. essentially, i want to lead trad but need to perfect gear placement before that ever happens. good plan? You'd be better served to mock lead an actual trad route, rather than a sport route. If nothing else, there will be actual placements. Aiding a route, while on top rope would be the best way to figure out what holds and what doesn't. If you're on toprope, it doesn't matter whether the route is bolted or not (although bolted routes probably won't have that many placements). What matters is the availability of placements throughout the pitch.
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TheSl0th
Mar 20, 2009, 12:41 AM
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i know next to nothign about aid clibing though, and my college has a rack thats pretty much never been used. when the time comes, id be buying my own anyway, as long as nobody else is using it i dont feel terribly bad about wearing it out. i can also have them replace stuff. :-D is there a thread abotu aid climbing around here by any chance? granted ill check out my freedom of the hills for all about it aswell.
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karmiclimber
Mar 20, 2009, 12:45 AM
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Oh thank God. I thought for sure 3,000 people were going to jump on me and say how stupid of advice that was to give (cuz thats what they usually do around here). I'm not out of the woods yet, as far as that's concerned, but like I said, aid climbing totally worked for me.
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8flood8
Mar 20, 2009, 1:02 AM
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the method you were describing is called "mock leading" its fine for learning. you don't necessarily need two belayers, but if you only have 1 it needs to be someone who is experienced. mock leading is great if you can coordinate it well and if not, its just a mess. aiding is great, but you actually need to fall on the pieces to see if they will hold because some placements will hold body weight and not hold a fall. the idea of toproping whilst you do this is encouraged as well because you never know if you will zipper all your pieces if you are leading aid.
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patmay81
Mar 20, 2009, 1:06 AM
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TheSl0th wrote: i know next to nothign about aid clibing though, and my college has a rack thats pretty much never been used. when the time comes, id be buying my own anyway, as long as nobody else is using it i dont feel terribly bad about wearing it out. i can also have them replace stuff. :-D is there a thread abotu aid climbing around here by any chance? granted ill check out my freedom of the hills for all about it aswell. ok dude, you better not be trolling me. I feel stupid enough explaining this as it is. You are going to learn more about gear placement and what will hold body weight (and if it wont do that it wont hold a fall) if you weight each piece, than if you fall on them with a top rope back up; since you will be able to inspect each piece after you've weighted it. aid climbing you have an aider which is a webbing ladder and a daisy chain. these share a common locking biner which clips to the piece, and the daisy is girthed onto your harness tie in points. weight the piece (without looking at it, you'll lose an eye that way!) and climb up the aider. place the next piece, and clip your other aider/daisy and repeat. clip a trail rope (lead rope) into the piece after you unweight it. my aiders are home made, with tubular webbing. I just tied over hands to create the steps, but if you have access to a quality sewing machine that will work too. I'm sure there are posts on this site for making your own aiders, and probably better descriptions on clean aid techniques. please make sure you are on a top rope back up with a competent belayer.
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patmay81
Mar 20, 2009, 1:09 AM
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8flood8 wrote: the method you were describing is called "mock leading" its fine for learning. you don't necessarily need two belayers, but if you only have 1 it needs to be someone who is experienced. mock leading is great if you can coordinate it well and if not, its just a mess. aiding is great, but you actually need to fall on the pieces to see if they will hold because some placements will hold body weight and not hold a fall. the idea of toproping whilst you do this is encouraged as well because you never know if you will zipper all your pieces if you are leading aid. no you don't need two belayers to mock lead, that just complicates things. and no, you don't need to fall on pieces to figure out what is a good placement and what isn't. Lastly, I would hope that an averagely intelligent person could figure out when a line of protection will be prone to zippering. always start off with a top rope back up.
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karmiclimber
Mar 20, 2009, 1:21 AM
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More advice: If you do decide to learn aid to trad...get your partner a gri-gri. Because it takes FOREVER to aid a route. But apparently you are a sloth, so its all bomber ;)
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patmay81
Mar 20, 2009, 1:33 AM
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yes, the grigri works great for the top rope back up. But when you move to leading on gear it takes mad skillz (you can tell they're mad cuz of the "z") to soften the catch adequately. An atc allows for a softer catch which can mean the difference between a piece holding and not.
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karmiclimber
Mar 20, 2009, 1:49 AM
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I keep forgetting about the backup toprope. I've never done that. I used to put in pieces on the ground, or essentially climb to bouldering height, then set up anchors...and I would have my trad climbing sensei inspect my placements. Really, if you are learning trad...unless you are going balls to the wall, you need a mentor. Someone who can look at your placements and say..."That LOOKS good. But look what happens if I pull it this way, etc."
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patmay81
Mar 20, 2009, 2:15 AM
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agreed, a mentor helps a lot. I never had a solid mentor, just some guy who told me "this is a cam, it goes in the crack", the rest I figured out on my own.
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jsj7051
Mar 20, 2009, 2:40 AM
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karmiclimber wrote: I keep forgetting about the backup toprope. I've never done that. I used to put in pieces on the ground, or essentially climb to bouldering height, then set up anchors...and I would have my trad climbing sensei inspect my placements. Really, if you are learning trad...unless you are going balls to the wall, you need a mentor. Someone who can look at your placements and say..."That LOOKS good. But look what happens if I pull it this way, etc." This is the way I learned. Worked well and quickly plus more fun . Also follow a better climber and when you clean a piece look at it , remove it , then see if you can place it back the same way. Karmiclimber, looking at you pic and profile ,I wouldn't worry about being flamed .
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zeke_sf
Mar 20, 2009, 2:54 AM
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jsj7051 wrote: Also follow a better climber and when you clean a piece look at it , remove it , then see if you can place it back the same way. Initially, following is probably the best way to learn. Going out and setting up these academic exercises such as mock leading, etc., have their place, but you aren't going to grasp the whole process and what it means quite so well as when you follow somebody who knows what they are doing.
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moose_droppings
Mar 20, 2009, 3:43 AM
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You can place all the gear you want just off the ground, then put a sling on it and bounce test the bejeepers out of it. Do the same thing while top roping a mock aid lead, place piece in, bounce test it vigerously (as mentioned above, don't look at it), place your aider on it and move up. edit: I'd wear a helmet on that mock lead, maybe some gloves to block the piece with your hand if it comes flying out too. Mock leading an aid pitch is fine for learning placing gear, and getting your first few cluster fvcks under control.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Mar 20, 2009, 3:55 AM)
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karmiclimber
Mar 20, 2009, 4:37 AM
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Thanks JSJ.
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TheSl0th
Mar 20, 2009, 5:00 AM
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i have that. hes teachig us everything. hes an extraordanary man. taught mountaineering to the austrian army i think he knows how to place trad gear haha. but in all seriousness, i couldnt have a better mentor. the grigri sounds like a solid plan for having one belayer. didnt even think of that, thanks. as for setinh up at bouldering height, ive done that allready we spent 3 days placing gear at like shoulder height and weighting it. i need to get comfortable falling on my gear, thtd the tough part.
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rangerrob
Mar 24, 2009, 2:50 AM
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Dude, follow the old chicks advice. (Sorry karmi, just diggin ya for your post on the introduce yourself thread!) Aid climbing is the best way to improve your placement skills. You don't need an expensive self belay device though. Two lockers and a clove hitch does the job. Other than that I suggest improving your social skills, and making friends with someone who is a good leader. Have them critique the crap out of your placements while you lead easy routes....like 5.2's...honestly. This is the safest way to learn.
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TheSl0th
Mar 24, 2009, 5:12 AM
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sounds good. i know a few people who i would definitely trust falling on their pieces. ill talk to them. thanks.
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RolonRolon
Mar 26, 2009, 4:42 PM
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I'm trying to get into trad as well. My plan was just to buy 5-6 cams, some stoppers and hexes and go practice on some boulders where falling won' t kill me. Hopefully I won't die, then I can graduate to doing real walls. Solid plan, eh?
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pendereki
Mar 26, 2009, 5:07 PM
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RolonRolon wrote: I'm trying to get into trad as well. My plan was just to buy 5-6 cams, some stoppers and hexes and go practice on some boulders where falling won' t kill me. Hopefully I won't die, then I can graduate to doing real walls. Solid plan, eh? Well actually no, I would not call that a solid plan to learn trad. leading. It might be a way to get familiar with the 5-6 pieces of gear that you have but nothing else. There is a lot more to constructing a safety system while climbing a route than placing a few cams in a crack. Things like a multidirectional first placement, correct, safe spacing of gear, anchor building, and gear management and gear management and energy management and gear management..... Get a mentor would be a better plan, read some books, hell, even racking the gear and playing with the ropes while you watch tv is going to teach you more about trad. than just sticking some pro in a crack on a boulder.
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currupt4130
Mar 26, 2009, 6:49 PM
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pendereki wrote: RolonRolon wrote: I'm trying to get into trad as well. My plan was just to buy 5-6 cams, some stoppers and hexes and go practice on some boulders where falling won' t kill me. Hopefully I won't die, then I can graduate to doing real walls. Solid plan, eh? Well actually no, I would not call that a solid plan to learn trad. leading. It might be a way to get familiar with the 5-6 pieces of gear that you have but nothing else. There is a lot more to constructing a safety system while climbing a route than placing a few cams in a crack. Things like a multidirectional first placement, correct, safe spacing of gear, anchor building, and gear management and gear management and energy management and gear management..... Get a mentor would be a better plan, read some books, hell, even racking the gear and playing with the ropes while you watch tv is going to teach you more about trad. than just sticking some pro in a crack on a boulder. Seconded. Sticking pieces on boulders may be an ok way to learn how to place gear, but are you going to have someone evaluate each placement? Having someone look at your gear that knows what they're doing can be very helpful. They can point out little things you would have never thought of that make for a much better placement. Also, as said above, there is more to climbing a route with gear than just placing the gear.
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TJGoSurf
Mar 26, 2009, 6:54 PM
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Trad is not that hard. Yes it is a mindfuck at times. Place your gear jerk on it in every conceiveable motion, if you still suspect it place another nearby. You have to look at it and say, if i fall on this will it hold me? I'm sure some of you don't value life as much as i do. Always something to keep in mind. I'm not sure where you're from, but in NC there is always somebody to teach you. Just join a yahoo group.
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RolonRolon
Mar 26, 2009, 9:48 PM
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I love to get a mentor but alas, no one has offered yet. I live in Sacramento if there are any willing teachers out there, I'm willing to buy as much beer as you can drink while staying sober enough to teach me.
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