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Dip
Dec 3, 2009, 2:36 PM
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hi, first i'll give my info, then ask my questions. I'm 6 feet, around 170 lbs, male, 31 years old, been climbing for just under 2 years, climb v3/v4, lead 5.11b on sport, 5.8 trad. I'm hellbent on getting stronger this winter. My goal is to lead 5.12 sport and climb v5 by next autumn. Doesn't seem like too lofty of a goal. I climb 3-4 times per week, usually in the gym for 2 hour sessions. I get outside when i can, but it's never more than once a week. This is all the time i can dedicate to climbing, as i have a young son and house and family and all that jazz. Aside from climbing i try to do core work with planks and crunches and pushups for a half hour a day at least 3 to 4 days per week. I also do pullups (i know they don't help climbing but fitness is fine with me) and run 2-3 miles 2-3 times per week. My question is, does anyone have any other suggestions about stuff to do to get stronger, or does it seem like i'm on the right track? And what about eating and nutrition? How many calories per day should i be eating? What kinds of foods. I've tried researching this part on other sites but no one seems to be able to relate it to climbing. any help is appreciated. For what it's worth i read this site every day, although as you can see i rarely post, but i've read some sound advice here, as well as some funny shit, so i was hoping maybe someone could help me out.
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lena_chita
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Dec 3, 2009, 2:59 PM
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It sounds like your general fitness is fine, and the time you spend in the climbing gym is adequate. I would hazard a guess that it is WHAT YOU DO when you are in a climbing gym that is going to make the biggest difference. Get a Self-Coached Climber book for training.
As far as nutrition, assuming you follow general guidelines for healthy eating (plenty of veggies and fruit, legumes, whole grains, lean meat and fish) anf get adequate intake of calories, protein, vitamins, etc. from the foods, you are probably all set.
2 hours a day in a climbing gym do not really require special nutrition and I find it very unlikely that you will see a jump in grades you are hoping for BECAUSE of any nutritional supplements.
I know people who drink protein shakes post-workout. Can't hurt, I suppose, but I personally don't.
The latest Rock and Ice had a Q&A about nutrition while climbing (though it was more about what to eat while climbing outside for the whole day, in order to avoid the late-afternoon slump). A different question than what you are asking. Read through it... though my quick summary of that article is 'do whatever works for you, these are guidelines, but they don't always work', LOL.
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Dip
Dec 3, 2009, 3:06 PM
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yeah i sort of figured i need to change up what im doing at the gym. I'm going to order "The self coached climber" and horst's "climb 5.12" if i don't get them for christmas. I just hear so much from arm chair nutritionists telling me "you need x amount of calories per day with the workouts you're doing," and i have no idea what to believe. When i started climbing i was 200+ pounds so dropping the weight was a good thing at first, but now i'm not so sure i want to get much skinnier
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jt512
Dec 3, 2009, 4:10 PM
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Dip wrote: yeah i sort of figured i need to change up what im doing at the gym. I'm going to order "The self coached climber" and horst's "climb 5.12" if i don't get them for christmas.
I wouldn't bother with How to Climb 5.12; you're already wasting time doing pull-ups. Given your present climbing level and goal, you primarily need to improve movement skills, and secondarily climbing-specific fitness. SCC is essentially the only book out there for these things.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 3, 2009, 4:11 PM)
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roy_hinkley_jr
Dec 3, 2009, 4:30 PM
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Dip wrote: And what about eating and nutrition? How many calories per day should i be eating? What kinds of foods. I've tried researching this part on other sites but no one seems to be able to relate it to climbing. any help is appreciated.
Get SCC for the sport training. Agree the 5.12 book is old but I think he has a new one coming next year. But read Climbing: Training for Peak Performance for the nutrition info. The training info is more for alpine climbers, general fitness, injury prevention and recovery but the nutrition material applies to all climbers.
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jaablink
Dec 3, 2009, 5:02 PM
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It sounds like you have a good training ethic and a busy life. I think JT is right . You should focus on refining your movement skills . Many of us will have a healthy diet of 5.10 11 and 12 with several projects going at all times above our current ability. Cycling through this diet weekly. Master each climb until you can do it perfect on command clean and comfortable, burning the least amount of energy possible each time--- efficiency . Then add more climbs to your program at the appropriate grade and repeat process…
You are only climbing 2 years. Be patient… the rock is not going anywhere.
As far as the diet goes , just eat healthy. I know of climbers with shit diets and crank hard and I know of some who have every calorie weighed out ,and crank hard too… it is better for the body in the long run to eat healthy imo. But it does not seem to be the decisive factor.
You can pm me a list of what you eat every day for the past week if you want , and I will take a look at it… but its probably fine...
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Dip
Dec 3, 2009, 5:19 PM
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Thanks for the advice on the books. SCC it is. I know i've only been at it two years and i do have to remind myself of that from time to time. I just feel like i broke into the v3 5.10 range a while ago and now i don't feel like i'm improving as fast as i should, but i guess anything worth doing takes time. I think you guys are 100% right about spending my time in the gym more efficiently though.
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bustloose
Dec 3, 2009, 8:01 PM
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lots of very wise people have uttered the phrase "train smarter, not harder". just going to the gym and climbing 3 times a week for 2 hours will get you only so far, but to reach your goals, you'll definitely need to put some thought into actually training. as has been mentioned already, work on improving your movement and technique, getting stronger is easy, and lay off the pull ups...
I'm not one for books, but if your peer group isn't able to help you improve as a climber, then i guess you may as well give it a shot.
if you ask 10 people about nutrition, you'll get 10 different answers. if you ask 10 nutrition professionals, you'll get 10 answers that will be remarkably similar. i used to eat burgers and smoke cigarettes and climb 5.13, now i eat healthy, and don't smoke cigarettes, and climb 5.13, but i feel much better, i recover faster, and i don't have energy spikes throughout the day.
proper nutrition is so often overlooked as a key to success. spend some time and go talk to a professional who understands sports nutrition (and if you don't want to be told to eat lots of meat and drink milk, go see a natural nutritionist). I'm not one, but have a very close friend who is, one of the first things he'll tell you is that counting calories is not the right approach, you need to be measuring carbs and protein to the corrent ratios, for the amount of physical work you do, and that most athletes eat way too much protein, and not enough carbs.
here's an example of a natural nutritionist:
http://www.trutritionfacts.com/...ting-seasonally.html
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Dip
Dec 3, 2009, 8:14 PM
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Okay so i've now officially sworn off pullulps forever  Seriously, i've always heard they don't help, but do they hurt? Are they actually bad for climbing?
(This post was edited by Dip on Dec 3, 2009, 8:55 PM)
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jt512
Dec 3, 2009, 8:55 PM
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Yikes, what a mess. Hopefully, as a nutrition major, your friend will actually learn something about nutrition.
Jay
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bothomsen
Dec 3, 2009, 11:45 PM
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what do you do? during those 2 hours in the gym.
and no! pull-ups dont hurt - but do les than 5-8 reps 3-5 sets. if to easy use ekstra weights.
it dont help your climbing if you can do 200pull-ups, but it will help a lot if you have strength to pull on the really hard moves.
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hellavelo
Dec 4, 2009, 1:35 AM
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Hey Jay,
I am not trying to pick an argument with you or anything but i am curious to hear what stood out to you as a mess on that blog?
...just curious.
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jaablink
Dec 4, 2009, 2:14 AM
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It sounds good in theory but it is not realistic. Bananas don’t grow here in NH , but I am a monkey who loves bananas . See the problem there… When a local crop here is in season the markets buy from the local growers , when their harvest has been exhausted the source changes … The demand seems to be grater than the supply. He wants his peppers ,I want some whatever that grows 3000 miles away …
Wtf, I just looked again… he does not even list bananas…. that’s just crazy!!!…crazy I say!!!
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Dip
Dec 4, 2009, 2:36 AM
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As of now i have no set program, and there in lies the problem. I just started doing 4x4's last week, and i by no means have them down to a schedule yet either. Usually i go in, do every problem i can do starting with the V0's and working my way up, then go try to send something i haven't yet sent. Unless i'm lucky enough to have someone there to tie in with, in which case i'll hop on a rope, do every route on that rope, then let my partner go, and do that until too tired to do anything else. The gym i go to isn't exactly a rope climbers paradise, and with my schedule it's rare that i find anyone to rope climb with anyway. I'd like to put the disclaimer that i know this probably isn't the best training regiment, and that's really part of why i posted the question to begin with. Also, i prefer to rope climb if possible, but bouldering is far more convenient given my situation, and the way the gym's set up.
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guangzhou
Dec 4, 2009, 2:52 AM
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jt512 wrote: Dip wrote: yeah i sort of figured i need to change up what im doing at the gym. I'm going to order "The self coached climber" and horst's "climb 5.12" if i don't get them for christmas. I wouldn't bother with How to Climb 5.12; you're already wasting time doing pull-ups. Given your present climbing level and goal, you primarily need to improve movement skills, and secondarily climbing-specific fitness. SCC is essentially the only book out there for these things. Jay
Jay, that's crap. You read about a guy and say he needs to improve his climbing movement without ever seeing or watching him climb.
I don't know many climber who can self assess their fitness accurately.
Dip, you want to improve, ask some climbers at your gym for help. Maybe the staff is willing too. The two books you're considering are excellent resources. Use them like any research material, read and decide what applies to your situation. Pick and choose what you need.
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guangzhou
Dec 4, 2009, 2:54 AM
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Dip wrote: Okay so i've now officially sworn off pullulps forever Seriously, i've always heard they don't help, but do they hurt? Are they actually bad for climbing?
Alex Lowe didn't think they were bad for his climbing.
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supersonick
Dec 4, 2009, 3:01 AM
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Weighted pullups are helpful.
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Dip
Dec 4, 2009, 3:26 AM
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i should clarify the staff at the gym is super helpful, and i go outside climbing with them and have become friends with all of them. It's a small gym, tight knit place. I just sometimes feel uncomfortable asking them for advice on training. I know that's kind of dumb, but they've all been climbing since they were 12, i didn't start til i was 29, i don't know that they remember exactly what they did to get strong, other than climb for a really long time, and started really young. i plan on climbing until i can't, so hopefully the long time thing's covered, but there's not a whole lot i can do about the starting really young part.
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guangzhou
Dec 4, 2009, 3:40 AM
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You live in Pennsylvania, so I can assume most of your outdoor climbing is on granite. (?)
If so, most of the routes you play on are vertical or just below vertical?
The type of rock you climb on and the style of routes you're climbing play a key roll on how to improve.
Me, I climb on a large variety of routes, so I train for general fitness. My technique and experience is my greatest asset, not my strength.
My nearest cliff is slightly overhanging limestone and similar to climbing at Red River Gorge. Also similar to New River Gorge in some ways.
When I climb in Yosemite I focus on cracks and slab, when I play at J-tree, it's low angle face and cracks, when I play at Foster fall, it's vertical square cut holds, when I climb above the beach in Southern Thailand, it's about movement and body contortion.
The best people to give you advice on training are the people who climb in the area you want to frequent. A guy climbing at Malibu Creek can hardly give you good advice on how to climb vertical crimps on granite. Nor can he give you much on endurance.
Me, I am lucky, I climb a wide variety of places. Most climbers frequent area near where they live. A few do a climbing trip elsewhere once in a while.
Ask the guys you climb with for advice. They have seen you climb and know how you move. They know what the local areas need.
Two cents from a guy putting up routes at unknown cliffs in Indonesia for now.
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Dip
Dec 4, 2009, 4:01 AM
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there's actually a pretty solid variety of different route types at the small crags scattered around south central pa. And the NRG and gunks are fairly close as well. So i really just want to improve to be a good "all around" climber. Jack of all trades master of none i guess.
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jt512
Dec 4, 2009, 4:38 AM
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guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: Dip wrote: yeah i sort of figured i need to change up what im doing at the gym. I'm going to order "The self coached climber" and horst's "climb 5.12" if i don't get them for christmas. I wouldn't bother with How to Climb 5.12; you're already wasting time doing pull-ups. Given your present climbing level and goal, you primarily need to improve movement skills, and secondarily climbing-specific fitness. SCC is essentially the only book out there for these things. Jay Jay, that's crap. You read about a guy and say he needs to improve his climbing movement without ever seeing or watching him climb.
We've had this exact same argument before. He's has only been climbing a short while, and his current limit is 5.11b. There is no question that his movement skills are undeveloped.
Jay
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Bag11s
Dec 4, 2009, 4:42 AM
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So, you climb .11b sport and would like to climb .12s a year from now. I like Horst’s approach of consolidating each letter grade and building a stable pyramid of numerous successes with many different types of climbs done at each letter grade.
This winter- do bouldering pyramids in the gym. Work on power, core, bouldering technique and top outs. Take care of your fingers and take it easy on the crimping but become the sloper king. This will set you up for getting outside.
The best way to get good at route climbing is to do lots of them. At the earliest opportunity in the spring begin to steadily frequent the sport area closest to home that has the largest number of climbs- get there one day each weekend if you can. Starting at 11b, work routes to redpoint success that take you an average of two to four work sessions at plus or minus 3 goes per session. Maybe you are working on a few routes at once in the 11b, c, & d range. Keep adding to the 11b ticked list steadily. After a while you’ll have a block of ten or fifteen of those done and a number of 11c’s and a few 11d’s. At some point you’ll notice that you will be doing even the hardest 5.10s you try on sight (if you are fresh), and then 11a… Keep building the pyramid. Every climb this close to your limit that you redpoint will teach you some different subtleties of skills.
The climbs should be hard for you- if not step it up a grade. Really pay a lot of attention to basic details. Seek out the very best clipping stances and stay relaxed while clipping. Exploit your breath both during the hardest moves and at the stances. When getting ready to leave the stance look at the sequence ahead and hit it precisely the way you practiced it. When making a redpoint attempt avoid the impulse to take- duke it out and climb until failure (or success). Climb meticulously and carefully exploit the best part of every hold- feet and hands. In general, move on with conviction once you have clipped. Since you have limited time due to other obligations, forget about ridiculously hard projects that might take a good part of the summer. Aiming for success on one 5.12 shouldn’t be the goal- aiming for success on first one, and then a number of 11d’s, and then 12a’s will prep you for the next level. After some progression, you will notice that the climbs you are on have moves on them that are as hard and weird as the boulder problems you were doing in the gym.
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jt512
Dec 4, 2009, 4:42 AM
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hellavelo wrote: Hey Jay, I am not trying to pick an argument with you or anything but i am curious to hear what stood out to you as a mess on that blog? ...just curious.
It's such a bizarre website I hardly know what to say. Whatever it is, it contains precious little valid nutritional information. It contains no science that I could I find, not a single reference to a well controlled study. It's more a reflection of the author's philosophical bias than the science of nutrition that he is supposedly studying in school.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 4, 2009, 4:46 AM)
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guangzhou
Dec 4, 2009, 4:44 AM
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jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: Dip wrote: yeah i sort of figured i need to change up what im doing at the gym. I'm going to order "The self coached climber" and horst's "climb 5.12" if i don't get them for christmas. I wouldn't bother with How to Climb 5.12; you're already wasting time doing pull-ups. Given your present climbing level and goal, you primarily need to improve movement skills, and secondarily climbing-specific fitness. SCC is essentially the only book out there for these things. Jay Jay, that's crap. You read about a guy and say he needs to improve his climbing movement without ever seeing or watching him climb. We've had this exact same argument before. He's has only been climbing a short while, and his current limit is 5.11b. There is no question that his movement skills are undeveloped. Jay
No question to you, but I have not seen him climb, so I can't say that. He's been climbing almost two years, that not bad for learning to move.
From what I understand, Chris Sharma had lousy footwork because he was to dynamic, now his climbing style has been adapted but other climbers.
I haven't seen Dip climb, so I can't say he doesn't know how to move. Some people learn to move quickly, others take year.
To be honest, I don't even know what his definition of climbing 5.11 means. Me I consider myself a 5.10 climber. Very few 5.10 climbs I won't get on, but I name a bunch of 5.11 I won't touch, and plenty of 5.12 (sport and trad) that I have climbed. Only a couple of 5.13s I redpointed.
For me to claim I climb a grade, I have to be able to do that grade across the board constantly. Gear and heigth being irrelevant.
Work on movement is a cop out. Everyone can improve their movement regardless of what level they climb. I personally don;t know how good or bad is climbing moves are because I've never seen him climb.
Eman
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Dec 4, 2009, 4:56 AM)
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munky
Dec 4, 2009, 11:06 AM
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"Me I consider myself a 5.10 climber. Very few 5.10 climbs I won't get on, but I name a bunch of 5.11 I won't touch, and plenty of 5.12 (sport and trad) that I have climbed. Only a couple of 5.13s I redpointed.
For me to claim I climb a grade, I have to be able to do that grade across the board constantly. Gear and heigth being irrelevant."-guangzhou
That is exactly how I access my level as a climber and I think the more experience you have as a climber on various terrain, Grades, etc. you realize what it really means to say you are a 5.12 or 5.11, or 5.13 climber. "You've climbed Apollo Reed at the New (13a) but have you climbed Scenic Cruise, or Medicine Man in the desert, or what about OZ at Tuolomne, or the "meager" Original route at Whitesides that is mostly 5.9 climbing." Lets see if you can climb 5.13 in those areas. After being humbled on a 5.10 crack or slab, you might redefine your "climbing level", whatever that means anyway.
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