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jt512
Jan 19, 2010, 5:42 PM
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bustloose wrote: No, it's not false.
Yes it is false. I just posted a well-controlled study showing that it is false.
In reply to: i'm not going to get into a study-posting battle.
Of course not. That would mean you'd actually have to examine what the science has shown, rather than what you've read from idiots with personal agendas on the Web.
In reply to: I'm sure you also know you can get Calcium and Vitamin D from a myriad of sources.
I asked you a specific question. I'll ask it again more pointedly. Design a diet, right now, that you could get an elderly woman to follow on her own, that contained no milk, no calcium supplements, and contained 1200 gm/day of calcium. Do it, or concede that you are wrong.
In reply to: also, maybe do a little research about acid / alkaline levels in the body, and which foods are which.
I can assure you that I know vastly more about the effect of diet on acid–base balance than you do.
Jay
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shockabuku
Jan 19, 2010, 5:55 PM
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bustloose wrote: you should try getting off the milk...  you'll probably get 100 answers from 100 people about what to eat on a climbing day. i used to eat crap, and climb 5.13, now i eat very healthy meals, and climb 5.13, but feel a lot better doing it. Pepsi and powerbars is one way to fuel up, but it's far from ideal especially if you want to avoid spikes and crashes...
Statement up front: I rarely drink milk.
I've read your statements that followed this one and I have yet to come across a reason that you posted for not drinking milk other than that you are opposed to it. Is there another reason? If people like it, what's wrong with it?
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hafilax
Jan 19, 2010, 6:06 PM
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bustloose wrote: chadnsc wrote: bustloose wrote: you should try getting off the milk... And why would that be? I drink organic, free range skim milk.  some nutritionists (the ones that aren't paid by the dairy board) will tell you that we are the only species that continues to drink milk after being weaned off of mothers milk. it's sole purpose is to fatten up babies... organic free range is of course better in terms of chemicals and animal treatment.
I'm willing to bet that if you sat a bowl of milk in front of just about any mammal that it would happily drink the whole thing.
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bustloose
Jan 19, 2010, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: Yes it is false. I just posted a well-controlled study showing that it is false.
no, you posted a well controlled study showing that calcium and vitamin D are beneficial
In reply to: Of course not. That would mean you'd actually have to examine what the science has shown, rather than what you've read from idiots with personal agendas on the Web.
no, that would mean i don't feel like getting into a never ending battle of studies. try to separate science from the dairy board, just for a moment and approach the issue with an open mind. there are thousands of idiots posting on the internet, i listen to none of them.
In reply to: I asked you a specific question. I'll ask it again more pointedly. Design a diet, right now, that you could get an elderly woman to follow on her own, that contained no milk, no calcium supplements, and contained 1200 gm/day of calcium. Do it, or concede that you are wrong.
really? don't be so obtuse. "SPEND YOUR VALUABLE TIME ARGUING WITH ME, OR ADMIT THAT YOU ARE WRONG!" fuck off already. If you really think you're that important, you've got issues. If a friend asked me to do that for a family member, i would refer them to a nutritionist.
In reply to: I can assure you that I know vastly more about the effect of diet on acid–base balance than you do.
excellent, perhaps put his vast knowledge to use?
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bustloose
Jan 19, 2010, 6:25 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Statement up front: I rarely drink milk. I've read your statements that followed this one and I have yet to come across a reason that you posted for not drinking milk other than that you are opposed to it. Is there another reason? If people like it, what's wrong with it?
if you've read my statements, then you will have noted that I said, if you like milk, then go ahead and drink it, but do yourself a favour and at least educate yourself on it.
I'm not "opposed" to milk, I'm opposed to the pressure put on people to drink it, and that it's "so good for you".
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jt512
Jan 19, 2010, 6:52 PM
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bustloose wrote: In reply to: Yes it is false. I just posted a well-controlled study showing that it is false. no, you posted a well controlled study showing that calcium and vitamin D are beneficial
No. The intervention was milk. The study thus shows that milk is beneficial.
In reply to: In reply to: Of course not. That would mean you'd actually have to examine what the science has shown, rather than what you've read from idiots with personal agendas on the Web. no, that would mean i don't feel like getting into a never ending battle of studies.
No. That would mean that we'd have to critically evaluate the scientific literature and try to understand the factors that underlie discrepant results. I'm willing to do that if you are. Are you?
In reply to: try to separate science from the dairy board...
I have been involved in vegetarian nutrition research for a decade without funding from the Dairy Board. I suggest that you try and separate yourself from vegan Internet lunatics like Robert Cohen.
In reply to: In reply to: I asked you a specific question. I'll ask it again more pointedly. Design a diet, right now, that you could get an elderly woman to follow on her own, that contained no milk, no calcium supplements, and contained 1200 gm/day of calcium. Do it, or concede that you are wrong. really? don't be so obtuse. "SPEND YOUR VALUABLE TIME ARGUING WITH ME, OR ADMIT THAT YOU ARE WRONG!" fuck off already. If you really think you're that important, you've got issues. If a friend asked me to do that for a family member, i would refer them to a nutritionist.
And that nutritionist would inform your friend or relative that such a diet is impractical. A typical elderly woman will not eat enough kale, collard greens, etc., but will drink two glasses of milk a day.
In reply to: In reply to: I can assure you that I know vastly more about the effect of diet on acid–base balance than you do. excellent, perhaps put his vast knowledge to use?
I do. http://scholar.google.com/...as_ylo=&as_vis=0
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 19, 2010, 7:00 PM)
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bustloose
Jan 19, 2010, 7:18 PM
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quoting quotes of quotes is annoying and i am guaranteed to screw it up.
with that argument, you could give Crystal Light to people who don't drink enough water, and then claim that Crsytal Light is beneficial to them. You know damn well you could have run that study with other sources of Calcium and Vitamin D, with the same result.
from time to time, i enter into discussions with peers who have been evaluating and attempting to understand scientific literature. I listen and try to get both sides of the story and that is what i base my views on. No, I am not willing to sift through that literature myself.
it's great that you have a substantial background in vegetarian nutrition research. Why not move away from your well chosen example of someone who won't eat a well rounded diet? As a healthy adult, do you really believe that you *need* milk in your diet?
and I have never actually even heard of Robert Cohen, nor do I follow any other vegan internet lunatics.
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jt512
Jan 19, 2010, 8:39 PM
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bustloose wrote: with that argument, you could give Crystal Light to people who don't drink enough water, and then claim that Crsytal Light is beneficial to them.
No. I don't know what Crystal Light is, but if it is just water, then it doesn't matter whether you give them Crystal Light water or water from another source. The substances are identical. Even in the study I cited, the authors cited the brand of the milk that they used, but they are not implying that the benefit is specific to that brand.
In reply to: You know damn well you could have run that study with other sources of Calcium and Vitamin D, with the same result.
First of all, don't presume to know what I know; you don't know what I know, and on this subject I happen to know a great deal more than you. One thing that I know is that different sources of calcium and vitamin D have remarkably different effects on bone health. You, yourself, intimated as much when you muttered something about acid–base effects of foods. Controlling for vitamin D intake, the same amount of calcium from milk, cheese, calcium carbonate supplements, calcium citrate supplements, kale, and spinach will each have different effects on calcium uptake, excretion, and retention. None of these foods and supplements are just calcium. The other constituents of these substances affect bone metabolism as well. The study I cited thus proved a benefit for milk per se.
In reply to: Why not move away from your well chosen example of someone who won't eat a well rounded diet?
I'm not talking about someone who won't eat a well-rounded diet. You are. You're talking about eliminating the most important source of calcium in the Western diet. An adult needs at least the amount of calcium in two glasses of milk per day. The amount of cooked kale—one of the richest plant sources of calcium—needed to supply the same amount of calcium is about 5 cups. Have you ever tried to eat five cups of cooked kale (or other high-calcium green leafy vegetables) day after day? Even dedicated vegetarians don't come close to that level of intake. In our study of American vegetarians, we found that, on average, vegetarians eat only about ¼ cup of green leafy vegetables per day. Even the 95th percentile of green leafy vegetable intake was less than one cup per day.
In reply to: As a healthy adult, do you really believe that you *need* milk in your diet?
I do not believe I need milk in my diet. I believe I need at least of 600 mg/day of calcium. I know that that is a difficult amount to obtain without dairy products or calcium supplements in the diet.
In reply to: and I have never actually even heard of Robert Cohen, nor do I follow any other vegan internet lunatics.
So, what is the source of your philosophy about milk? (That's what it is, BTW, philosophy, not science.) And where did you learn (or at least hear about) acid–base effects of foods. Outside of real nutrition journals and scientific conferences, you don't hear much about this rather technical subject, except on vegan web sites.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 19, 2010, 10:05 PM)
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hyhuu
Jan 19, 2010, 9:03 PM
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bustloose wrote: hyhuu wrote: bustloose wrote: there is no benefit to drinking milk as an adult. i do like that your "striking point" is that we drink the milk of a different species, some would say that's an evolutionary step backward. what, do you suppose the milk of a cow is for, could it be, perhaps, helping the growth of it's own young? bingo. ever wonder why so many people are lactose intolerant to some degree? milk is for babies, from mothers. and yes, of course there is more to it than just helping growth, i was being flippant. but the fact remains, that infant development is based on breast milk, which ceases to have any value after a certain developmental period, right around say when mothers tend to stop breast feeding... what a bizarre coincidence eh? Chadnsc, this is in no way directed at you. Are you kidding me? That's the argument? Is there any science to back up those claims? Because it sounds like a 3rd grade logic to me. Is there a biochemist in the house to elucidate us on the human or living organism biochemical process? Strictly from my basic understanding, except for the carbohydrates (lactose), the protein, fat and mineral in milk are the same as those from meats. Perhaps the reason babies only drink milk is because that's the only form of food they can digest until their diggestive system mature to diggest other food sources. But that doesn't mean that milk can't be comsummed once the diggestive system is matured so to say that's milk offer no value is just absurd. wow. just, wow. claims? words fail me. human breast milk is completely different than cow's milk. you do know that you don't give infants cow's milk, right? it's either breast milk or formula. there is nothing you can get in cow's milk that you cannot get from other sources. educate yourself, then make your decisions. if you like milk cause you think it's tasty, and it doesn't disagree with your belly, then go to town, but at least learn some facts about milk first.
I agree that there is nothing in cow's milk that you cannot get from other sources. Read my previous post carefully. And by that, it also implies that cow's milk is just as beneficial as other sources. Biologically, an animal protein is an animal protein. Personally, I'm not much of a fan of milk but such claim is just idiotic.
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durangoclimber
Jan 19, 2010, 9:08 PM
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The "Divorce Diet" has worked for me. After 16 years with the woman...I have lost 43#'s in the 9 months since she left..and I get to climb when I want and take my kids climbing when they want. I think I win!
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Jonmac92
Jan 20, 2010, 12:27 AM
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Hey guys sorry i haven't been able to reply as often as id like college can be time consuming plus working at the rock wall. anyways there seems to be a heated debate on Milk never would've expected that to pop up. im hearing a lot of diversified answers. the other thing that i've been wondering about is dealing with that just pumped feeling you get in your forearms i know this is normal and i can climb quite a long time before it decides to show up ( considering im able to climb 3 times a week) so how does everybody deal with that
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matterunomama
Jan 20, 2010, 4:00 AM
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Jonmac92 wrote: Hey guys sorry i haven't been able to reply as often as id like college can be time consuming plus working at the rock wall. anyways there seems to be a heated debate on Milk never would've expected that to pop up. im hearing a lot of diversified answers. the other thing that i've been wondering about is dealing with that just pumped feeling you get in your forearms i know this is normal and i can climb quite a long time before it decides to show up ( considering im able to climb 3 times a week) so how does everybody deal with that
Yes, back to your original question...I think CRANK Forearm Fuel works great. It has vitamins as well as sodium/magnesium/and calcium lactate. For more about lactic acid as the cause of 'the pump': http://www.nytimes.com/...tion/16run.html?_r=1. CRANK is from Redpoint Nutrition http://www.redpointnutrition.com
As far as the milk controversy..It is well known that chocolate milk is one of the best 'sports drinks', as far as balanced energy and nutritional content. Saying that adult humans should avoid milk reminds me of people that try to make their cats vegan-cats are obligate omnivores! (and they love milk)
"If God did not mean for humans to eat animals he would not have made meat so delicious"
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colatownkid
Jan 20, 2010, 4:33 AM
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Jonmac92 wrote: Hey guys sorry i haven't been able to reply as often as id like college can be time consuming plus working at the rock wall. anyways there seems to be a heated debate on Milk never would've expected that to pop up. im hearing a lot of diversified answers. the other thing that i've been wondering about is dealing with that just pumped feeling you get in your forearms i know this is normal and i can climb quite a long time before it decides to show up ( considering im able to climb 3 times a week) so how does everybody deal with that
i'm going to attempt to reply with some information that directly addresses your question. but first a disclaimer: i'm just a random dude on the internet. i've done some reading about nutrition, training, climbing-specific training, etc. however, i am by no means an expert. (i say this because there are others on this site like jt512 and aerili who are, in fact, experts in these fields.)
generally speaking, your diet should be high in unrefined carbs and lean proteins and low in fat. this will provide the energy needed to climb, the necessary nutrients to build muscle, and the lack of fat needed for a high strength-to-weight ratio. jt512 has an article on his server that he wrote regarding nutrition for climbers. perhaps he'd be kind enough to link it?
regarding the comment above about supplements: it's my understanding that supplements generally do little to enhance success in climbing. some supplements may even adversely affect your climbing by causing water-retention (and lowering the strength-to-weight ratio). unless you really know what you're doing, i'd avoid them.
as for pumping out: that is to be expected when you climb at a level that is difficult for you. if you feel you are pumping out too soon, you may be suffering from "flash pump." this is what climbers call it when you climb something too difficult without first warming up. the result is a heinous pump early that is very difficult to get rid of. if you think this is happening, i recommend warming up by doing laps for a few minutes on something well below your limit. you might even go so far as to go for a 10 minute jog first, then do some easy laps, and then start cranking.
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sungam
Jan 20, 2010, 9:39 AM
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matterunomama wrote: Jonmac92 wrote: Hey guys sorry i haven't been able to reply as often as id like college can be time consuming plus working at the rock wall. anyways there seems to be a heated debate on Milk never would've expected that to pop up. im hearing a lot of diversified answers. the other thing that i've been wondering about is dealing with that just pumped feeling you get in your forearms i know this is normal and i can climb quite a long time before it decides to show up ( considering im able to climb 3 times a week) so how does everybody deal with that Yes, back to your original question...I think CRANK Forearm Fuel works great. It has vitamins as well as sodium/magnesium/and calcium lactate. For more about lactic acid as the cause of 'the pump': http://www.nytimes.com/...tion/16run.html?_r=1. CRANK is from Redpoint Nutrition http://www.redpointnutrition.com As far as the milk controversy..It is well known that chocolate milk is one of the best 'sports drinks', as far as balanced energy and nutritional content. Saying that adult humans should avoid milk reminds me of people that try to make their cats vegan-cats are obligate omnivores! (and they love milk) "If God did not mean for humans to eat animals he would not have made meat so delicious"
As for nutrition on the whole - you best bet is to aim for a varied and balanced diet, and stay away from the usual suspects (fast food, junk food, etc.).
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MS1
Jan 20, 2010, 4:41 PM
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For your forearm pump question, I suggest you search for "ARC" and "power-endurance" training. The first is a method for increasing the amount of time you can climb before you start to feel a significant pump; the second is training to climb longer while feeling the pump.
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zeth01
Jan 21, 2010, 12:30 AM
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LFRV 80/10/10
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billcoe_
Jan 21, 2010, 4:55 PM
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jt512 wrote: bustloose wrote: there is no benefit to drinking milk as an adult. That is flat-out false. For example............ Jay
http://www.livescience.com/...90624-milk-myth.html
..."When you measure calcium by cup of food product, milk is high on the list. When you view it by calorie, though, milk is at the bottom. A hundred calories of turnip greens have over three times as much calcium as 100 calories of whole milk, for example. ..."
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byran
Jan 21, 2010, 6:38 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: jt512 wrote: bustloose wrote: there is no benefit to drinking milk as an adult. That is flat-out false. For example............ Jay ..."When you measure calcium by cup of food product, milk is high on the list. When you view it by calorie, though, milk is at the bottom. A hundred calories of turnip greens have over three times as much calcium as 100 calories of whole milk, for example. ..."
Yeah, but turnip greens are icky. Who wants to eat that? Milk on the other hand is delicious. Especially chocolate milk.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 21, 2010, 6:42 PM
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byran wrote: billcoe_ wrote: jt512 wrote: bustloose wrote: there is no benefit to drinking milk as an adult. That is flat-out false. For example............ Jay ..."When you measure calcium by cup of food product, milk is high on the list. When you view it by calorie, though, milk is at the bottom. A hundred calories of turnip greens have over three times as much calcium as 100 calories of whole milk, for example. ..." Yeah, but turnip greens are icky. Who wants to eat that? Milk on the other hand is delicious. Especially chocolate milk.
chocolate milk with frosted mini wheats is a treasure I guarantee will not disappoint.
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byran
Jan 21, 2010, 7:16 PM
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bustloose wrote: some nutritionists (the ones that aren't paid by the dairy board) will tell you that we are the only species that continues to drink milk after being weaned off of mothers milk. it's sole purpose is to fatten up babies...
Well anyone calling himself a "nutritionist" probably doesn't know what he's talking about, or atleast hasn't gone to school or earned any sort of degree. However, most registered dietitians would agree that milk is one of the most complete foods (thanks to evolution). It's got a balanced amount fat, protein, and carbs, as well as sodium.
And I've also got to ask, what do you think happens if you put a bowl of cows milk infront of an adult cat? Or an adult pig? Or an adult bear? Most mammals love milk and will drink it every chance they get. It's just not available to them after infancy.
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Coffmann
Jan 21, 2010, 7:48 PM
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Sorry, but I have to reply to the milk discussion. First off, the above poster compared turnips to WHOLE milk. Skim milk has a fraction of the calories.
The primary reason I want to respond is to the claim that there is no benefit to drinking milk as an adult, and the claimant (whoever it was) then cited the existence of lactose intolerance to support this. This is backward: intolerance is the basal state, tolerance is the derived state.
A quote from the textbook Evolution by Futuyma:
"However, people in several populations around the world have persistently high LPH levels in adulthood, especially in northern Europe and in certain populations in Africa. Milk and milk products have traditionally been an important part of the diet of all these populations. Adult lactose digestion has evolved at least three times in seperate populations (Holden and Mace 1997; Tishkoff et al. 2007), based on different mutations....DNA sequence evidence suggests that these evolutionary changed occurred after dairying was adopted. That a similar feature arose independently in a similar ecological context - a diet of dairy products - strongly suggests that it is an adaptation to that context." (Futuyma 2009, pg 297). The emphasis is mine.
All diets should, of course, be personally tailored.
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jt512
Jan 21, 2010, 7:54 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: jt512 wrote: bustloose wrote: there is no benefit to drinking milk as an adult. That is flat-out false. For example............ Jay ..."When you measure calcium by cup of food product, milk is high on the list. When you view it by calorie, though, milk is at the bottom. A hundred calories of turnip greens have over three times as much calcium as 100 calories of whole milk, for example. ..."
That's true, but not meaningful. If a person were to substitute turnip greens in their diet for whole milk, in a manner that maintained their level of calcium intake, then they would have to make up the caloric deficit somewhere else in their diet, anyway.
BTW, the most accurate part of that article is its byline: By Christopher Wanjek, LiveScience's Bad Medicine Columnist.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 21, 2010, 8:00 PM)
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aerili
Jan 21, 2010, 9:00 PM
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byran wrote: Well anyone calling himself a "nutritionist" probably doesn't know what he's talking about, or atleast hasn't gone to school or earned any sort of degree.
This is generally true. The reality is that in most states, anyone can set up shop and call themselves a nutritionist.
I agree with jt512; hardly anyone is going to eat the ridiculous amounts of collard, kale, broccoli etc. that it would take to provide high amounts of calcium. For some people, such consumption could cause GI distress as well. Not to mention that some of those greens that provide the highest amounts of calcium, like spinach, also contain oxalic acid, which reduce the body's absorption.
I work with an RD as well and he thinks milk is okay for adults to consume and is healthy. He is not in cahoots with the Dairy Council either.
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bustloose
Jan 22, 2010, 7:38 PM
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Do I, or do I not wish to continue this discussion with people who are experts at looking at only one side of an argument?
no, I do not.
I stated before, and I'll mention it again, just do a little research, and maybe look at both sides of the story, then decide how you like.
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