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dingus
Feb 2, 2010, 6:18 PM
Post #126 of 151
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kinch wrote: My point is you cannot plagiarize something that is already in the public domain.
My point is guide book authors really hev no lasting incentive and plenty of disincentive, to publishing. The above sentence highlights the reason.
Cheers
DMT
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kinch
Feb 2, 2010, 6:26 PM
Post #127 of 151
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The Internet has certainly changed the way people view this type of information as more and more of it becomes available for free online. Maybe this means guidebooks in their current form become obsolete. Maybe publishers can figure out ways to provide value that the Internet cannot match. I don't know the answer, but I do know that focusing only on the negative aspects ignores the bigger picture. Technology will continue to evolve, closing some markets and opening others. It has been so for hundreds of years.
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asiaclimber
Feb 2, 2010, 10:07 PM
Post #128 of 151
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Kindle has a 3 week battery life after the recent patch released. You can download the book on the way to the craig and use it while you are there.
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guangzhou
Feb 3, 2010, 12:53 AM
Post #129 of 151
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asiaclimber wrote: Kindle has a 3 week battery life after the recent patch released. You can download the book on the way to the craig and use it while you are there.
Do you like your Kindle. Considering buying one. No commited yet, but I'll most likely have one by summer.
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i_h8_choss
Feb 3, 2010, 12:47 PM
Post #131 of 151
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chrisJoosse wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: chrisJoosse wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: Yeah and people will immediately update thier blogs as soon as they get off the climb, still pumped, light up a ciggy, and tell the interweb all about thier sick send. Blogger fans will be standing by, waiting for the update. Call me old-school.....but technology is pretty lame sometimes. It takes away the purity and art in certain things. Fortunately, with technology you can largely choose what content you consume. Sure, there will always be the chest-beating spray, whole tribes organize themselves around that stuff. That's not a problem with tech, it's a problem with people. Nothing is taken away when someone blags their 'sick send'. Unfortunately, I had to consume this content. And it's tech's fault, not yours ??? Technology is an enabler. It makes stuff possible- things we like, as well as things we don't. It giveth cell phones and pacemakers and internet forums, and it delivereth spam, goatse, 2girls1cup, and countless other horrors. What it does not do, however, is force you to do anything that it makes available. You don't have to read this shit. When you say that technology takes the purity and art out of things, it is tough for me to understand- you have the option at any time to eschew it altogether. You haven't lost any options, you've only gained. Your cell phone doesn't own you, you own it. If it's the other way around, the problem isn't with technology, it's in the way you relate to it. I understand that all technology presents a double-edged "opportunity" complete with costs. We now have choices between endless options and possibilities, which can feel like a curse, but which isn't one at all if you really think about it.
If you understand the double edged sword, does that mean you are agreeing with me?
You replied to me, remember? I do have to read this. It's like a drunk asking for money on the street. I can't just turn off my ears.
There is an art about a doing a traditional climb with no beta and no electronics. Not relying on something else is much more exciting and pure. You should try it sometime.
The mind is a better "enabler". When the shit hits the fan, are you going to rely on yer skillz, or turn to the device and ask it what you should do.? You heard about these spot devices? It's an easy way out for some people. Forgot to learn about self rescue or first aid, so just hit the button and the chopper will be here in an hour. I've worked on SAR teams and have seen this before. The mountains are a very wild place. If you don't have the experience to get yourself out of a jam, don't bother going. I read another thread where you said you got into climbing to help you stay fit for kayaking. Well how about getting into climbing because you like climbing... dude.?
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Kevthecoffeeguy
Feb 3, 2010, 2:30 PM
Post #132 of 151
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kriso9tails wrote: This isn't really true though. Netbooks and the iPad are somewhat dissimilar products. The point of the iPad is to offer something that has a more organic, user-friendly interface. The point of a netbook is to be small, cheap, and awkward so that you don't really give a shit if it breaks or gets stolen. Okay, maybe that's not fair, but even if both products are aiming at a similar middle ground, they're doing it in different ways. I don't know why anyone would try to use the iPad as a laptop. Personally, I consume a lot of digital media. Books, music, television, movies, news (etc.). The iPad is geared towards this type of usage.
WOW now i pads are organic. who would have thought it true. but you read it here first.....
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jeepnphreak
Feb 3, 2010, 4:09 PM
Post #133 of 151
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asiaclimber wrote: Kindle has a 3 week battery life after the recent patch released. You can download the book on the way to the craig and use it while you are there.
Not really...I have a friend that has a Kindle and its fine AS LONG AS ITS WARM OUT. take that thing ice climbing and the battery is dead in less than a day. Take is alpining for 3-4 days and it just unessary weight. those thing hate -20 temperatures
we have yet replace the reliablility of a laminated piece of paper phopocoied form a guide book.
the benifits to paper
1, light weight
2 never goes dead
3 you can drop it off a clif and it still works just fine.
4 you can step on with a crampon and it still works.
5 you can use it a TP in a pinch (at the end of the trip)
6 if you loose it you our a nickle and its another nickle to replace.
7 cold has very little effect on paper.
8 moisture may be an issue but laminate it your good to go.
9 set in the bottom of a back and drop 15 kilos of gear on it and it dosent get crushed.
sorry but technology is still very inferior in a out door setting compared to the old tried and true book. Beside most of the kindles ipad and such rapes you for several hundreds of dollars that I rather put towards gear.
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kriso9tails
Feb 3, 2010, 7:03 PM
Post #134 of 151
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Kevthecoffeeguy wrote: WOW now i pads are organic. who would have thought it true. but you read it here first.....
Please tell me that this is a lame joke and that you did actually understand the comment. I'm finding it harder and harder to tell with people these days.
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silascl
Feb 3, 2010, 7:39 PM
Post #135 of 151
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kinch wrote: dingus wrote: The big problem with guidebooks is the rampant theft of the material by those who post known routes to online databases pretending it is their own, original material. Like the routes db on this board, it contains hundreds of such thefts. Who do you think owns the names and ratings of the routes at a cliff? The publisher who made the guide book? The climbing community? Do the first ascentionists own the names of their routes? Do guidebook authors need their permission to include the routes? My point is you cannot plagiarize something that is already in the public domain.
Which part is in the "public domain"? Sure I could google up Nose first ascent and get some info that's freely available. But if I wanted to see who did the FA on that 11b at Pinnacles I would probably have a tougher time. The guidebook author took the time to gather information, organize it, and publish it. When someone takes the info from a guidebook and puts it all online, that is stealing.
If they did their own research, came to the same conclusions, and published identical info, that wouldn't be stealing.
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kinch
Feb 3, 2010, 7:48 PM
Post #136 of 151
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You cannot own a fact, you can only own a description of a fact. So the name of a route or the rating of a route or its first ascentionist are in the public domain. The guidebook author's description of a route is copyrighted and belongs to whoever holds that copyright. But I would argue most of the information in a climbing guidebook belongs to the community because it was contributed to the guidebook author by the community.
I'm not downplaying the amount of work required to create a guidebook, but there are areas covered on this site for which no guidebook exists. So who owns those names and ratings? RC.com? The semi-anonymous poster who added them to the db? I would say neither. I think they are owned by the community itself.
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dingus
Feb 3, 2010, 7:53 PM
Post #137 of 151
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kinch wrote: I think they are owned by the community itself.
ergo the problem with guide books.
DMT
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Gmburns2000
Feb 3, 2010, 8:17 PM
Post #138 of 151
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kinch wrote: You cannot own a fact, you can only own a description of a fact. So the name of a route or the rating of a route or its first ascentionist are in the public domain. The guidebook author's description of a route is copyrighted and belongs to whoever holds that copyright. But I would argue most of the information in a climbing guidebook belongs to the community because it was contributed to the guidebook author by the community. I'm not downplaying the amount of work required to create a guidebook, but there are areas covered on this site for which no guidebook exists. So who owns those names and ratings? RC.com? The semi-anonymous poster who added them to the db? I would say neither. I think they are owned by the community itself.
+1
It's the same with maps, for instance. Just because Delorme might have been the first to put out a map of a town or state, that doesn't mean Delorme owns the data. It merely owns how that data is put together, but even that has limits because that doesn't mean another atlas company can't put together the same information in the same manner. They certainly can and do. Most atlases have the same info put together in the same manner.
And I'm pretty sure that map companies, for instance, don't do all their research from scratch. It would be stupid for Garmin to do all the research on its own if it wanted to add that data to its GPS. In fact, it'd be really smart for Garmin to reference all the other maps already made so that it knew what the market would bear. This isn't stealing. It's due diligence.
I'd find it very difficult to believe that the folks at Falcon, for instance, spoke to each FA'ist in a particular area to get the info for it's data. I'd find it much more believable that they used a bunch of different resources, including info gained from other guides, and put all that information together in their own way. Its definitely not uncommon for two different guidebooks for the same crag to have the exact same description of a route.
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silascl
Feb 3, 2010, 8:28 PM
Post #139 of 151
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kinch wrote: You cannot own a fact, you can only own a description of a fact. So the name of a route or the rating of a route or its first ascentionist are in the public domain. The guidebook author's description of a route is copyrighted and belongs to whoever holds that copyright. But I would argue most of the information in a climbing guidebook belongs to the community because it was contributed to the guidebook author by the community.
In reply to: I'm not downplaying the amount of work required to create a guidebook, but there are areas covered on this site for which no guidebook exists. So who owns those names and ratings? RC.com? The semi-anonymous poster who added them to the db? I would say neither. I think they are owned by the community itself.
Honestly I'm getting more into this than I wanted to, and more than I really care about the subject.
My main point is that guidebook authors have a small hope of getting back some of their costs and maybe funding further climbing projects. That incentive doesn't exist for people who put up info on mountainproject or rc.com. So I'm skeptical that the future is user generated content, by the masses and for the masses.
I can google up any recipe I want, but nine times out of ten the cookbook on my bookshelf has more complete information that results in a better experience.
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kinch
Feb 3, 2010, 8:37 PM
Post #140 of 151
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silascl wrote: Honestly I'm getting more into this than I wanted to, and more than I really care about the subject.
That makes two of us. I didn't mean to steer this thread into a discussion about copyright when the conversation about guidebooks on mobile devices is so much more interesting.
silascl wrote: My main point is that guidebook authors have a small hope of getting back some of their costs and maybe funding further climbing projects. That incentive doesn't exist for people who put up info on mountainproject or rc.com. So I'm skeptical that the future is user generated content, by the masses and for the masses.
I don't think the future is user-generated content, either. But I do think there is a clash brewing between the old school of paper guidebooks and the coming wave of electronic devices that could replace them. It will be interesting.
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asiaclimber
Feb 3, 2010, 10:16 PM
Post #141 of 151
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Love my Kindle, I bought it back in sept and have already paid for it with how much i have saved on books i have bought. not to mention it's green so no more cutting down trees for my entertainment. If you are an avid reader then i strongly advise getting one. You can also load pdf files into it so i have the entire Ogawyama.com guide with over 1000 routes on my kindle. mixing battery life with size and weight i really can't wait for more guide books to go into kindle format.
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chrisJoosse
Feb 4, 2010, 2:45 AM
Post #142 of 151
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i_h8_choss wrote: If you understand the double edged sword, does that mean you are agreeing with me?
In this context, your statement "technology is pretty lame sometimes. It takes away the purity and art in certain things" doesn't make sense to me. Technology takes away nothing in the way of art or purity. People might use it in a way that might not live up to your standards of purity and art, but that's people doing it, not technology. If you have a complaint about the guy using his iThingy for beta, your complaint is with him, not the iThingy. And his level of purity and art his business anyhow and none of yours or mine.
i_h8_choss wrote: There is an art about a doing a traditional climb with no beta and no electronics. Not relying on something else is much more exciting and pure. You should try it sometime.
No shit, really? 
Again, I understand- doing it without beta or aid is in your view more pure, more adventurous. But have you somehow lost the ability to go without your i-thingy now that they exist? No.
And for what it's worth, I've done it. And it was great, and I'll do it again.
i_h8_choss wrote: The mind is a better "enabler". When the shit hits the fan, are you going to rely on yer skillz, or turn to the device and ask it what you should do.? You heard about these spot devices? It's an easy way out for some people. Forgot to learn about self rescue or first aid, so just hit the button and the chopper will be here in an hour. I've worked on SAR teams and have seen this before. The mountains are a very wild place. If you don't have the experience to get yourself out of a jam, don't bother going.
It seems that in your concern is more about others, who probably shouldn't be taking thier lives into their hands based on misplaced faith in their iGizmos- is this accurate?
i_h8_choss wrote: I read another thread where you said you got into climbing to help you stay fit for kayaking. Well how about getting into climbing because you like climbing... dude.?
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guangzhou
Feb 4, 2010, 3:23 AM
Post #143 of 151
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This morning I received an email an made me realize how much I hate technology. Yes, email is technology that takes away from the purity of my climbing.
The email had this link and report. http://tiny.cc/EEHG3
Wihout technology, I would never have heard of this place and I would not be interested in visiting and climbing the area. Stupid technology killing my spirit of adventure.
Yet another place I want to explore. So much rock around Asia, how will I ever climb all these places.
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i_h8_choss
Feb 4, 2010, 10:09 AM
Post #144 of 151
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This thread is called "the death of guidebooks". We've all been typing about how maybe someday, printed paper guidebooks will become obsolete and be replaced by electronic databases on the I-thingys or computers. That would mean that this choice that you speak of would not be available. Sure we have the choice now, but what about in 10-20-or 50 years.? Everyone would have to chose to use the I-thingy if they needed some beta. I know what a choice is. I've been choosing things for 29 years. The I-thingy companies want to get rid of books. That way, everyone will have to go out and buy and I-thingy.
Companies like Apple want control of their market. Take away choice, and they'll have control.
I-thinky.
Art is something original and beautiful. A ground up first ascent is exactly that. Everything else is not art, it's been done before.
I-thinky.
and you still didn't answer my question. Are you in computer sales? Cause if you are, that's great. Good for you. People who work in computers want to see computers succeed. Me, I could care less.
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chrisJoosse
Feb 4, 2010, 10:17 PM
Post #145 of 151
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There's a lot about the concept of a guidebook that can change without trapping us in a future with no alternatives but to have an iThingy. For example, for remote climbs, I've carried printed sheets of information off the net in a ziploc bag- I doubt the printer or the internet is threatened even if the bound guide book might be.
I think people will always use what works for them and I doubt any one technology will exclude all other options. Tech history is strewn with the corpses of companies that tried to control their markets to the exclusion of the alternatives.
I am not in computer sales, but I am a software developer. I agree that a future in which all people are locked into a no-choices world would be horrible, but I don't see that coming- companies have been trying to lock in their customers for years and it will never happen for the same reasons it hasn't already happened.
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brownie710
Feb 4, 2010, 10:22 PM
Post #146 of 151
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i try not to say anything disparaging usually but...
fucking yuppies
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asiaclimber
Feb 5, 2010, 12:16 AM
Post #147 of 151
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Me thinks i have just found the next place to take a extended vaca.
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guangzhou
Feb 5, 2010, 12:50 AM
Post #148 of 151
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asiaclimber wrote: Me thinks i have just found the next place to take a extended vaca.
If you mean here, http://tiny.cc/EEHG3
we just might have to coordinate our vacations.
of course, we'll have t use email, Skype, and other technologies to make it happen.
Maybe June of 2011, how does that sound for you?
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acorneau
Feb 5, 2010, 2:50 AM
Post #149 of 151
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asiaclimber wrote: Me thinks i have just found the next place to take a extended vaca.
You're taking an extended cow?!?!?
Dude, that's gross.
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gmggg
Feb 5, 2010, 2:06 PM
Post #150 of 151
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