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majid_sabet


Apr 23, 2010, 9:50 AM
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Climbing gym disaster
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From the news

Sun 11 Apr 13:30

Munich. A climber fell 15 metres in an indoor rock climbing facility and suffered severe injuries from the fall. Police reported on sunday that the 26 year old lost his grip on the climbing wall while securing an intermediate rope buckle.
His 23 year old climbing partner, who wanted to secure him with the rope, couldn't activate the break in time. The rope slipped through her hands and her partner fell directly onto the PVC floor. The impact broke his lumbar vertebra but there was no immediate threat to his life. The woman suffered rope burns to her hands.


http://www.themunichtimes.com/...d&article_id=416


acorneau


Apr 23, 2010, 9:59 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
From the news

Sun 11 Apr 13:30

Munich. A climber fell 15 metres in an indoor rock climbing facility and suffered severe injuries from the fall. Police reported on sunday that the 26 year old lost his grip on the climbing wall while securing an intermediate rope buckle.
His 23 year old climbing partner, who wanted to secure him with the rope, couldn't activate the break in time. The rope slipped through her hands and her partner fell directly onto the PVC floor. The impact broke his lumbar vertebra but there was no immediate threat to his life. The woman suffered rope burns to her hands.


http://www.themunichtimes.com/...d&article_id=416

By "intermediate rope buckle" I'm guessing they mean a quickdraw on the wall.

Unfortunately, it sounds like belayer error, plain and simple.

Hope the guy is OK and the belayer learned her lesson.

Unsure


Gabel


Apr 25, 2010, 3:53 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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Hello,

I have taken the freedom to register, retrieve german information on the web and translate it. I hope this helps to clear things up a bit and understand what happened.

On Sat 10th of April 2010 a 26yo male climber decked from 12-15m height at the High East climbing gym Heimstetten. He was reportedly climbing a grade 7 UIAA route when he fell. It is told that he was asking for rope and fell while trying to clip in.
His 23yo female belayer could not catch his fall and suffered rope burns to her hands. He was then transported to the hospital where they diagnosed fractured lumbal vertebrae/s.


Source: http://www.kletterfieber.net/kletterunfall-im-high-east-heimstetten-1891/

The following is an account of somebody on the scene:

In reply to:
ich war am besagten Tag im High East. Was ich gesehen habe war das er gut und schwer geklettert hat und das sie eher leichtere Sachen gemacht hat. Ob sie nun Anfängern war oder nicht ist Mutmaßung. Fakt ist, dass sie mit einem Petzl Reservo gesichert hat. Was ich nachher mitbekommen habe ist das sie wohl dachte er braucht mehr Seil zum Einhängen in die nächste Exe und er einen schweren Zug gemacht hat von dem er abgeflogen ist. Sie hat nicht zu gemacht und dann wars zu spät zum halten. Er hat riesen Glück gehabt das er nicht schlimmer verletzt ist. Mir stellen sich jetzt noch die Haare auf wenn ich an die Höhe und das Geräusch des Aufschlags denke.

I was on the scene. What I have seen is that he was climbing well and hard routes while she was climbing easy stuff. Wether she was a beginner I cannot tell with certainty. I know as a fact that she was belaying with a Petzl Reverso.
Later I witnessed that she might have thought he needed more rope fore clipping while he was in fact trying a difficult move and fell. She did not brake and therefore she couldn't hold him. He was lucky. I still have goosebumps when I think of the sound of his impact.


The climbing gym states:

We phoned him and considering the circumstances he is fine. Get well soon.

Source: http://www.high-east.de/index.php?page=show_news&n_id=69


So, it does sound like a typical belayer error.


gblauer
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Apr 25, 2010, 7:29 AM
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Re: [Gabel] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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This happened to me a few years ago. I had finished my climb and my belayer failed to control the rope when I popped off the wall. Even though we had direct eye contact and I said "coming off" and she said "ok" and I said "got me?" and she said "sure do" (or something like that...in other words we had verbal communication of my plans to get lowered). She let the rope run through her ATC and I hit the deck from 35 feet. I broke my back, spent two days in the hospital and was back climbing pretty darn quickly. My back hurt, but, my ribs were so much worse. They were not broken, but, boy did they hurt.

The incident screwed with my lead head (outdoor only) for that entire season. Although the incident occurred indoors, I was fine climbing inside (with a limited set of belayers). For some reason, my lead head was really troubled outdoors.

Oh well, that was a few years ago and I have moved on...or maybe I haven't...


(This post was edited by gblauer on Apr 25, 2010, 7:30 AM)


jmeizis


Apr 25, 2010, 9:29 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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Geez man you made it sound like the building collapsed and 20 people died with the thread title. Glad the climbers ok, but this sounds like an unfortunately common occurence.


ClimbClimb


Apr 25, 2010, 10:10 AM
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Re: [gblauer] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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gblauer, your story was terrifying. Did you ever figure out what went wrong or any lessons to be drawn, besides having known-good belayers?

Hope everyone gets well soon from the German climbing accident.


jt512


Apr 25, 2010, 10:25 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
gblauer, your story was terrifying. Did you ever figure out what went wrong...

It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay


ClimbClimb


Apr 25, 2010, 10:31 AM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

But even then, imagine if we knew that say, red-headed belayers with small hands and smell of peanut butter Clif bars were more likely to fail to lock-off. That'd be useful. That's what I'm talking about.


jt512


Apr 25, 2010, 10:35 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 25, 2010, 10:36 AM)


Gmburns2000


Apr 25, 2010, 11:54 AM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]


jt512


Apr 25, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay


johnwesely


Apr 25, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

You must be belayed by some sketchy people that you think this is necessary.


jt512


Apr 25, 2010, 12:15 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

You must be belayed by some sketchy people that you think this is necessary.

Famous last words.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Apr 25, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?


jt512


Apr 25, 2010, 12:27 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?

Um, I fall plenty when I'm working routes.

Jay


johnwesely


Apr 25, 2010, 12:38 PM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?

Um, I fall plenty when I'm working routes.

Jay

Do you grab the belayer side of the rope until you know you are caught?


Gmburns2000


Apr 25, 2010, 12:44 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?

Um, I fall plenty when I'm working routes.

Jay

so how do you know? how do you know when to trust your belayor? certainly a verbal confirmation on "take" is more certain than a sudden fall, right?

If anything, it should be easier for the belayor to control the rope when the climber takes than when the climber falls. Do you ease on to the rope when you fall, too? I mean, in the end, what's the difference? The belayor still has to control the rope.

I ease onto the rope quite a bit, but it rarely has anything to do with the belayor. That is usually a result of my head playing games with me and me not trusting the gear, but that's just my own neurosis.

The only time I ease on to the rope as a result of a fear of the belayor not catching me is when I'm climbing with someone new. That usually only lasts a couple of climbs, though. Otherwise, a simple, "take - got you - thanks" should do just fine. If it doesn't, it certainly isn't my trust in a verbal confirmation's fault.


jt512


Apr 25, 2010, 12:55 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?

Um, I fall plenty when I'm working routes.

Jay

Do you grab the belayer side of the rope until you know you are caught?

No, but it's a different situation. First, there is never any ambiguity about what the belayer's job is when you're climbing: he's belaying. At the anchors there can be ambiguity, miscommunication, and error. First you need slack, then tension, then to be lowered, and all this needs to be communicated with the climber and belayer at opposite ends of the pitch, and possibly out of each other's sight.

Second, grabbing the rope until you're sure you're on tension is a safeguard against one of the commonest causes of grigri-involved accidents: failure to shockload the grigri.

Third, if you sport climb long enough you will eventually weight the rope at the anchors thinking you're on tension, when you're not. This will almost certainly result in nothing more than a surprising drop of a few feet as your belayer wakes up. Occasionally, however, climbers have been dropped to the ground. If you are in the habit of always grabbing the rope until you feel tension, you'll never be one of the "occasionally's."

Finally, any time you have the opportunity to take responsibility for your own safety in climbing, and you fail to do so, you just plain fail.

Jay

P.S. How can you not feel at least a little bit stupid arguing against a safety precaution with no downside in a thread in which a serious accident is discussed that this precaution would have avoided?


(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 25, 2010, 12:59 PM)


johnwesely


Apr 25, 2010, 1:01 PM
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jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?

Um, I fall plenty when I'm working routes.

Jay

Do you grab the belayer side of the rope until you know you are caught?

No, but it's a different situation. First, there is never any ambiguity about what the belayer's job is when you're climbing: he's belaying. At the anchors there can be ambiguity, miscommunication, and error. First you need slack, then tension, then to be lowered, and all this needs to be communicated with the climber and belayer at opposite ends of the pitch, and possibly out of each other's sight.

Second, grabbing the rope until you're sure you're on tension is a safeguard against one of the commonest causes of grigri-involved accidents: failure to shockload the grigri.

Third, if you sport climb long enough you will eventually weight the rope at the anchors thinking you're on tension, when you're not. This will almost certainly result in nothing more than a surprising drop of a few feet as your belayer wakes up. Occasionally, however, climbers have been dropped to the ground. If you are in the habit of always grabbing the rope until you feel tension, you'll never be one of the "occasionally's."

Finally, any time you have the opportunity to take responsibility for your own safety in climbing, and you fail to do so, you just plain fail.

Jay

That is a fair enough point, but how is coming on to the rope once you have clipped your anchor any different from falling?
If you are talking about cleaning anchors, then I guess I know what you are talking about, but I never take myself off the anchor until I feel the belayer pulling anyways.


jt512


Apr 25, 2010, 1:16 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?

Um, I fall plenty when I'm working routes.

Jay

Do you grab the belayer side of the rope until you know you are caught?

No, but it's a different situation. First, there is never any ambiguity about what the belayer's job is when you're climbing: he's belaying. At the anchors there can be ambiguity, miscommunication, and error. First you need slack, then tension, then to be lowered, and all this needs to be communicated with the climber and belayer at opposite ends of the pitch, and possibly out of each other's sight.

Second, grabbing the rope until you're sure you're on tension is a safeguard against one of the commonest causes of grigri-involved accidents: failure to shockload the grigri.

Third, if you sport climb long enough you will eventually weight the rope at the anchors thinking you're on tension, when you're not. This will almost certainly result in nothing more than a surprising drop of a few feet as your belayer wakes up. Occasionally, however, climbers have been dropped to the ground. If you are in the habit of always grabbing the rope until you feel tension, you'll never be one of the "occasionally's."

Finally, any time you have the opportunity to take responsibility for your own safety in climbing, and you fail to do so, you just plain fail.

Jay

That is a fair enough point, but how is coming on to the rope once you have clipped your anchor any different from falling?
If you are talking about cleaning anchors, then I guess I know what you are talking about, but I never take myself off the anchor until I feel the belayer pulling anyways.

Actually, I'm mainly talking about cleaning anchors.

Jay


johnwesely


Apr 25, 2010, 1:21 PM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off.

Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes.

It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you.

Jay

like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes]

Yes, actually, I do do that every single time.

Jay

You don't fall much then do you?

Um, I fall plenty when I'm working routes.

Jay

Do you grab the belayer side of the rope until you know you are caught?

No, but it's a different situation. First, there is never any ambiguity about what the belayer's job is when you're climbing: he's belaying. At the anchors there can be ambiguity, miscommunication, and error. First you need slack, then tension, then to be lowered, and all this needs to be communicated with the climber and belayer at opposite ends of the pitch, and possibly out of each other's sight.

Second, grabbing the rope until you're sure you're on tension is a safeguard against one of the commonest causes of grigri-involved accidents: failure to shockload the grigri.

Third, if you sport climb long enough you will eventually weight the rope at the anchors thinking you're on tension, when you're not. This will almost certainly result in nothing more than a surprising drop of a few feet as your belayer wakes up. Occasionally, however, climbers have been dropped to the ground. If you are in the habit of always grabbing the rope until you feel tension, you'll never be one of the "occasionally's."

Finally, any time you have the opportunity to take responsibility for your own safety in climbing, and you fail to do so, you just plain fail.

Jay

That is a fair enough point, but how is coming on to the rope once you have clipped your anchor any different from falling?
If you are talking about cleaning anchors, then I guess I know what you are talking about, but I never take myself off the anchor until I feel the belayer pulling anyways.

Actually, I'm mainly talking about cleaning anchors.

Jay

Oh, I assumed you were talking about clipping chains and being lowered because Gblauer was talking about climbing in a gym when she fell.


jmeizis


Apr 25, 2010, 3:19 PM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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If there's never ambiguity about what the belayer's job is when you're climbing, why does that stop when you get to the anchor? If they're not smart enough to follow simple instructions or evaluatively make safety decisions based on their judgement then yes it probably is important to grab the other side of the rope. I have a habit of doing it as well, but that habit is born out of having just met my belayer minutes ago and having either recently taught them or not being able to trust their qualifications. If you're in fear of regular partners dropping you at the anchor then I don't know how you can take falls with them.

Besides that if your partner is using the gri-gri the way they should be then it will lock before they lower you. Even if it didn't they should still be able to hold you at the anchor and lower you without incident. Hence the reason it's called an assisted locking device. Then again most gri-gri users I see don't know what the hell they're doing so I can see taking precautions against such idiocy.

I can think of no situation where a miscommunication could result in getting dropped to the ground unless the route is ten feet tall or your belayer incompetently lets go of the rope. Both are ridiculous situations that shouldn't happen. If they can catch a sport fall then they should be able to catch whatever slack they fed out at the anchor. I'm assuming you lower through the anchors by passing a bight through and tying into at the bight before untying from the other end. Part of taking responsibility for your and other people's safety is not lowering through the anchors. Unless you're planning to fork up the cash to repair them.

The situation I can think of where a miscommunication could result in a climber falling all the way to the ground is one in which the climber says "Off Belay" and their belayer, following instructions, takes the rope out of the belay device, and then the climber, thinking they're still on belay, leans back and decks. If you call "Off Belay" and think someone's gonna catch you though then you're an idiot.

I agree one should take responsibility for their own safety though. So I guess it's not unreasonable to grab the other side of the rope but it sure seems like an unnecessary precaution, like extra belay loops.


potreroed


Apr 25, 2010, 3:21 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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The belayer in the original post was using a reverso; Gail's belayer was using an atc; both accidents could have been avoided had the belayers been using a gri-gri or a cinch.


jmeizis


Apr 25, 2010, 3:32 PM
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Re: [potreroed] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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Unless they failed to use those properly as well, and considering what happened that seems likely.


(This post was edited by jmeizis on Apr 25, 2010, 3:53 PM)


Rudmin


Apr 25, 2010, 5:34 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Climbing gym disaster [In reply to]
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I expected to hear an epic story about how an indoor climbing team made a foolhearty summit push in poor conditions too close to closing time and got swept off the wall.

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