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onarunning
Apr 30, 2010, 8:07 PM
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So after reading a lot about The Self Coached Climber, about a month ago I decided to read it. Right away I started doing the drills, and I feel like they have changed my climbing quite a bit. I back step and flag and drop knee much more. I think about the way I'm moving much more, too.
I realize that within the world of training for climbing, a month isn't that long of a time. The thing is, though, that I feel like the drills and ideas have had an impact on how I climb on routes that are about a grade under what I onsight. When I am onsighting at my limit or projecting something a little beyond my limit, I feel like all technique I have goes out the window, and I do whatever it takes to hang on. It generally is not graceful or effective.
How do I transfer skills that I'm developing in drills and exercises to real, trying-as-hard-as-I-possibly-can climbing?
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pendereki
Apr 30, 2010, 8:20 PM
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Practice.
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lena_chita
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Apr 30, 2010, 8:24 PM
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1) Time. It takes time before something that you practice in low-stress conditions becomes instantly available to you in high-stress situations. It takes time before things become 'automatic'. So keep practicing those drills.
2) Mental awareness. Sounds like you are paying attention and analyzing what you are doing, and that's the first step. The next step is to consciously decide, when you notice yourself overgripping, using poor form, etc. to relax, breathe, and try to do it calmly and efficiently.
3) Repeat 1 and 2, above. Accept that it won't always happen. And try again next time.
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hafilax
Apr 30, 2010, 9:11 PM
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Repeat the route while trying to be more efficient with each attempt by following the guidelines of good technique. Don't be afraid to try something crazy. Sometimes the intellectual analysis of the move isn't right.
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jt512
Apr 30, 2010, 10:05 PM
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onarunning wrote: So after reading a lot about The Self Coached Climber, about a month ago I decided to read it. Right away I started doing the drills, and I feel like they have changed my climbing quite a bit. I back step and flag and drop knee much more. I think about the way I'm moving much more, too. I realize that within the world of training for climbing, a month isn't that long of a time. The thing is, though, that I feel like the drills and ideas have had an impact on how I climb on routes that are about a grade under what I onsight.
It's not realistic to expect to be able to immediately apply skills that you have mastered at one number grade to challenges that are a full number grade, or more, more difficult. Work your way up gradually. If you're good at flagging at say, the 5.9 level, start practicing flags on 5.10a's. Pick routes at this level and climb them repeatedly. Work on each move until you feel that you are executing every move impeccably. As you gain skill at one level, increase the difficulty of your practice routes to the next level.
Jay
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johnwesely
Apr 30, 2010, 10:26 PM
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The best thing you can do is climb as consciously as possible. Control your breathing. Climb slowly. Make sure that all of your attention is devoted to climbing. Slipping into auto pilot means you are only going to use skills that are very well ingrained.
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xaniel2000
May 3, 2010, 2:36 PM
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It makes sense that you're having difficulty applying new techniques when you're climbing at your limit.
Take weight lifting as an example. To improve form, it's necessary to remove weight and practice with a weight that's below your max. It may hurt your ego to do less than max, but it's going to help you in the long run.
Same goes for climbing. If you're trying to instill new techniques, take a step back and work routes/problems below your limit. Once that's second nature to you, it'll be much easier to apply it to climbs at your limit.
I guess my message overall is hang in there, because the problems you're facing are not uncommon, and are certainly capable of being overcome.
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bill413
May 3, 2010, 4:45 PM
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Billy Jean King once said that she needed to change her serve, to improve it; that meant accepting she was going to lose matches for a year.
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jbone
May 3, 2010, 5:03 PM
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Climb more. Don't worry about how hard you can climb just try to climb hard on what your climbing.
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onarunning
May 3, 2010, 6:00 PM
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I don't mind this outlook at all. I would rather feel smooth as I move up through grades that are lower than what I can thug through, rather than climbing with bad technique.
Then I guess the question becomes, is their a time to climb at my limit at all? Or should all my energy go into improving technique?
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bustloose
May 3, 2010, 6:30 PM
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there is ALWAYS a time to climb at your limit, both redpoint and onsight.
you should make it a goal to improve not only your technique but also your ability to see the upcoming moves and climb through them as efficiently as possible without too much screwing around to find the right position, whatever that position might be.
with any luck, you'll develop your instinct instead of trying to repeat what you saw in a book. i assure you, in all my years of coaching and climbing, i see more people improve when they STOP trying to apply "perfect technique" to everything. that backstep/dropknee/whatever is often overkill...
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sidepull
May 3, 2010, 7:20 PM
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onarunning wrote: I don't mind this outlook at all. I would rather feel smooth as I move up through grades that are lower than what I can thug through, rather than climbing with bad technique. Then I guess the question becomes, is their a time to climb at my limit at all? Or should all my energy go into improving technique?
This just screams of a big disconnect or misinterpretation of what you read. Go back and read The Self-Coached Climber again. If you are following the recommendations, then all your training is not "technique" training and you should have more time per week for "real climbing" than most people on this site. I'm serious, go back and read it again and I think you'll realize you've missed/over-simplified/mis-understood some pretty big steps.
Good luck.
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lena_chita
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May 3, 2010, 8:08 PM
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onarunning wrote: I don't mind this outlook at all. I would rather feel smooth as I move up through grades that are lower than what I can thug through, rather than climbing with bad technique. Then I guess the question becomes, is their a time to climb at my limit at all? Or should all my energy go into improving technique?
There is a disconect there somewhere in your interpretation.
What I was trying to say, when you are in the gym doing your movement drills-- that is practice.
And then EVERY TIME you climb a route, at your limit or below, indoor or outside, you apply it -- or try to. It would be easy to apply what you learned on easier climbs. It would be harder on harder climbs. But you try to do it anyway.
It doesn't mean that you have to only climb easy routes until you get completely smooth on those. That doesn't make much sense.
You climb a mixture of routes, easy for you, and hard for you, and try to be efficient in your movement and apply the skills that you have learned -- that is how you will eventually get to the point where your movement skills are automatic and you don't forget how to flag when you are gripped.
Really, what you are experiencing is a normal progression.
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sidepull
May 3, 2010, 9:04 PM
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Lena,
I think the other thing that the OP is missing here is that the "exercises" (for lack of a better word) in TSCC prescribe different levels of difficulty. For example, 4x4's have a much higher intensity than ARCing which is different VIR's which is different than doing "hardest single move" training etc., etc. Moreover, because of the book's emphasis on non-periodization (I can't remember what Fluxus calls it) a lot of these exercises are often wrapped into a single training day. So, if you're doing these things you'll A) be packing a lot of climbing into a single session, more climbing than the average joe that just "climbs hard" and B) you will be climbing hard, you'll just be smart about it and less likely to be injured. Also there's C) you'll feel worked because you actually challenged your muscles in a more holistic way than the guy that comes in and tries to climb a V5 that can't do the third move on for 2 hours.
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onarunning
May 3, 2010, 9:35 PM
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sidepull wrote: onarunning wrote: I don't mind this outlook at all. I would rather feel smooth as I move up through grades that are lower than what I can thug through, rather than climbing with bad technique. Then I guess the question becomes, is their a time to climb at my limit at all? Or should all my energy go into improving technique? This just screams of a big disconnect or misinterpretation of what you read. Go back and read The Self-Coached Climber again. If you are following the recommendations, then all your training is not "technique" training and you should have more time per week for "real climbing" than most people on this site. I'm serious, go back and read it again and I think you'll realize you've missed/over-simplified/mis-understood some pretty big steps. Good luck.
I'll be the first to agree that I should read it again. I probably will. Thanks for pointing out this misunderstanding on my part. Lena helped clear up some of the misunderstanding in my thought process. Thanks all.
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johnwesely
May 3, 2010, 9:51 PM
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lena_chita wrote: onarunning wrote: I don't mind this outlook at all. I would rather feel smooth as I move up through grades that are lower than what I can thug through, rather than climbing with bad technique. Then I guess the question becomes, is their a time to climb at my limit at all? Or should all my energy go into improving technique? There is a disconect there somewhere in your interpretation. What I was trying to say, when you are in the gym doing your movement drills-- that is practice. And then EVERY TIME you climb a route, at your limit or below, indoor or outside, you apply it -- or try to. It would be easy to apply what you learned on easier climbs. It would be harder on harder climbs. But you try to do it anyway. It doesn't mean that you have to only climb easy routes until you get completely smooth on those. That doesn't make much sense. You climb a mixture of routes, easy for you, and hard for you, and try to be efficient in your movement and apply the skills that you have learned -- that is how you will eventually get to the point where your movement skills are automatic and you don't forget how to flag when you are gripped. Really, what you are experiencing is a normal progression.
+1
If you stay on all easy routes, then you might get really good at easy route but will improve slowly if at all. That is why you see people who have been climbing for a really long time climbing relatively easy routes. There is nothing at all wrong with that if that is your thing. I don't think I have improved number wise at all in the last 2 years. About half of that is because my tendons are about as strong as a stale rubber band, and the other part is that I have been slowly moving up the grades on traditional climbs so I have a strong base when I am ready to start pushing it. However, that being said, I feel much more solid on climbs now than I ever had, even though I am pretty sure that I am objectively "weaker" now than I have been in the past.
Really, the point I am trying to make is that while climbing easier routes will help you improve your technique and can be a ton of fun, If you don't get on climbs that are too hard for you, you are not really going to improve numbers wise. Good luck with your training.
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rockprodigy
May 10, 2010, 11:44 PM
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There are ways to "stress proof" new techniques that you are learning.
Say you are learning to backstep, and you can do them easily on a 5.8 TR. Now try it on a boulder problem close to the ground. This should be slightly more stressful than a TR. When that feels easier, try doing it on a boulder problem higher off the ground, or on one harder, etc. This allows you to gradually increase the stress up to the level you might experience on a difficult onsight.
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