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majid_sabet
Mar 23, 2012, 12:39 AM
Post #52 of 65
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: just belay off anchor and you are done. Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations 
blah blah blah and sure, if you are building chicken sh*t anchor made of two loose pieces like 75% of the climbers out there, I would not trust a 10lbs haul bag to be belay from of it but if you have a solid anchor, I see no reason why people should belay off their belay loop.
not to forget that belay off harness keeps the belayer tie-down and in case emergency where belayer needs to escape belay ( again 75% do not know how to do it), belaying off harness is not the best choice in many situations as people think.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 23, 2012, 12:44 AM)
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chadnsc
Mar 23, 2012, 12:56 AM
Post #53 of 65
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Colinhoglund wrote: majid_sabet wrote: [IMG]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3518/pict0059bg.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3194/screenhunter01mar212336.jpg[/IMG] Just noticed this, WTF???? Over built top belay with a grigri with an OMG!!!!111!!1!1! un locked locking biner!!!!! And not even sure what Majid is trying to show in the second picture.
I don't know, the first pick is just a two bolt anchor with a locker and a gri gri. I wouldn't call that overbuilt, quite simple actually.
Edit to add:
Now the second pick, that's a different story.
(This post was edited by chadnsc on Mar 23, 2012, 12:58 AM)
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ptlong2
Mar 23, 2012, 1:49 AM
Post #54 of 65
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bearbreeder wrote: Tom Jones wrote: This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop, to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor. this also means that yr tie in should be very tight i should think ...
No, it doesn't matter how big the loop is.
bearbreeder wrote: [I can't] remember anyone [clipping their belay device into] both the belay and rope loops ... all the "pro" climbers and guides [I've] seen just go though the belay loop generally ...
I haven't witnessed it either but do I know that some people do it.
I have also never heard of a belayer's harness ripping apart while catching a factor 2 fall. I just thought it was worth tossing the thoughts of a harness designer into the discussion.
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sp115
Mar 23, 2012, 3:26 AM
Post #55 of 65
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majid_sabet wrote: bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: just belay off anchor and you are done. Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations blah blah blah and sure, if you are building chicken sh*t anchor made of two loose pieces like 75% of the climbers out there, I would not trust a 10lbs haul bag to be belay from of it but if you have a solid anchor, I see no reason why people should belay off their belay loop. not to forget that belay off harness keeps the belayer tie-down and in case emergency where belayer needs to escape belay ( again 75% do not know how to do it), belaying off harness is not the best choice in many situations as people think.
75% you say...
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TarheelJD
Mar 23, 2012, 4:38 AM
Post #56 of 65
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So there is a problem with the idea that belaying off the rope loop is superior to the belay loop in the specific scenario where you are belaying up the second with a sub par anchor. This whole concept is premised on the thought that by belaying off the rope loop you (as the belayer) are in a better position to catch a fall with your "body" (see legs) than you would be if you were belaying from the belay loop. This is basically belaying off the anchor except with your harness tie in points running through a masterpoint made of your tie-in figure 8. I'm willing to make a strong argument that if you need (and expect) to add marginal strength to this system with your legs to safely catch a follower then your anchor isn't really an anchor.
Sure belaying from the rope loop in this scenario is probably better than the belay loop because your body wouldn't be subject to the torsional forces in a traditional belay loop situation (basically getting turned sideways as your belay loop is pulled down and the rope leads the opposite direction). But a situation where this is required is pretty rare unless you are in desperate circumstances anchor wise. More importantly, the average person perusing the beginners forum on RC is unlikely to properly identify such a situation. And perhaps most importantly, if your anchor actually is an anchor, then belay from it.
This isn't to say that using the rope loop is wrong, it's probably just more confusing than it's worth to the average person in this particular forum.
(This post was edited by TarheelJD on Mar 23, 2012, 4:40 AM)
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bearbreeder
Mar 23, 2012, 5:39 AM
Post #57 of 65
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ptlong2 wrote: No, it doesn't matter how big the loop is.
yr correct ... it shouldnt matter ... brain fart ...
maybe ill see someone do it someday ... hmmmmm
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bearbreeder
Mar 23, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #58 of 65
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sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: just belay off anchor and you are done. Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations blah blah blah and sure, if you are building chicken sh*t anchor made of two loose pieces like 75% of the climbers out there, I would not trust a 10lbs haul bag to be belay from of it but if you have a solid anchor, I see no reason why people should belay off their belay loop. not to forget that belay off harness keeps the belayer tie-down and in case emergency where belayer needs to escape belay ( again 75% do not know how to do it), belaying off harness is not the best choice in many situations as people think. 75% you say...
a majeeeed statistic of course ...
there are perfectly good reasons to not use a direct belay in certain situations ... if majeeeeed actually climbed hed know this ....
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JimTitt
Mar 23, 2012, 7:35 AM
Post #59 of 65
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majid_sabet wrote: just belay off anchor and you are done.
Some climbers have progressed from top-roping to leading.
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chadnsc
Mar 23, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #60 of 65
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JimTitt wrote: majid_sabet wrote: just belay off anchor and you are done. Some climbers have progressed from top-roping to leading.
Could be that Midget only leads and thus only belays up his second . . . .
Hahahahahahahahaha, sorry I couldn't keep a straight face through that one.
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notapplicable
Mar 27, 2012, 12:07 AM
Post #61 of 65
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robdotcalm wrote: Colinhoglund wrote: One concept everyone here seems to be missing or unaware of is that using the tie in loop to belay off of is very dangerous in the case of using a "Yosemite finish". Apparently the roll over threshold is vastly reduced and because of the orientation of the free end back through the knot, it will fail on the first roll. A climbing mag (Gripped or Climbing, I don't remember) did some tests and warned against the Yosemite Finish for this purpose. Here's the link http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=2538384;page=unread r.c
Interesting. Seems I was the third poster in that thread but never came back to see the concern somewhat validated.
While I'm skeptical that a figure-8 knot would roll due to the forces exerted by catching even a "worst case scenario" lead fall, I'm also not sure it's worth the risk when you can just clip the belay loop along with the rope loop. It would be interesting to see some drop tests on a few ringloaded figure-8 tie-in variations though.
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looseanchor
Mar 28, 2012, 12:29 AM
Post #62 of 65
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Take a look at Figure 7 and 8 of this Petzl Instruction Manual for the Falcon Mountain harness, that shows using a retraced Figure 8 through the ventral attachment points or, in the alternative, carabiners through the belay loop.
http://www.petzl.com/...-FALCON-MOUNTAIN.pdf
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rgold
Mar 29, 2012, 5:11 AM
Post #63 of 65
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That picture has nothing to do with the discussion about belaying off the rope loop rather than the belay loop.
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mikebee
Mar 29, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #64 of 65
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Just heading back to the original topic a bit (shock horror), but there is nothing wrong with the gym teaching new lead belayers to tie in to the other end of the rope. It ingrains a good habit early on.
Once the newbs have done a bit more leading, they'll realise that they can skip that part for single pitch climbing less than half a rope length, but before that, it means that 1) it is impossible for them to lower their partner off the end of the rope, and 2) get the leader into a good habit of being able to check the belayers tie in. Checking the seconds tie in is always a good habit to be in for multi pitch climbs.
So while it is slow and tedious for a regular sport climber to be thinking about having a second who ties in, it's a case of teaching safest practice, and letting the students figure out the shortcuts themselves, when their understanding is better.
As for the current discussion regarding belaying off a tie-in loop, I had it recommended by a mountaineering guide a few years ago. His argument was not as sound as rgolds (saves weird twisting forces on the harness), but this guide reckons belay off the tie in loop, and tie in with a pretty big loop, as it declutters the belay loop and tie in points which may have daisy chains on, and will likely be partially obscured by layers of clothing and possibly a pack waistbelt. He argued that between cold, gloved hands and the clutter, keeping the belay device a bit further out makes rope management easier.
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ceebo
Mar 29, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #65 of 65
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mikebee wrote: Just heading back to the original topic a bit (shock horror), but there is nothing wrong with the gym teaching new lead belayers to tie in to the other end of the rope. It ingrains a good habit early on. Once the newbs have done a bit more leading, they'll realise that they can skip that part for single pitch climbing less than half a rope length, but before that, it means that 1) it is impossible for them to lower their partner off the end of the rope, and 2) get the leader into a good habit of being able to check the belayers tie in. Checking the seconds tie in is always a good habit to be in for multi pitch climbs. So while it is slow and tedious for a regular sport climber to be thinking about having a second who ties in, it's a case of teaching safest practice, and letting the students figure out the shortcuts themselves, when their understanding is better. As for the current discussion regarding belaying off a tie-in loop, I had it recommended by a mountaineering guide a few years ago. His argument was not as sound as rgolds (saves weird twisting forces on the harness), but this guide reckons belay off the tie in loop, and tie in with a pretty big loop, as it declutters the belay loop and tie in points which may have daisy chains on, and will likely be partially obscured by layers of clothing and possibly a pack waistbelt. He argued that between cold, gloved hands and the clutter, keeping the belay device a bit further out makes rope management easier.
If they don't include the circumstances this is used in and have the climbers actualy go through them then what is the point.
When a person is leanring the basics of TR i don't include a random piece of info like what Z clipping is..
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