Forums: Climbing Disciplines: Big Wall and Aid Climbing:
Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Big Wall and Aid Climbing

Premier Sponsor:

 


wigglestick


Apr 9, 2002, 8:03 AM
Post #1 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1235

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Since returning from my recent 22 hour car to car pseudo-epic in Zion I have been thinking about different ways that I can improve my speed/efficiency while aiding.

I was wondering if any of you wall rats have any suggestions on how to manage all that gear. Specifically, if you are carrying a rack consisting of 3 sets of TCU's, 2 set of HB's, 2 sets of nuts, 2 sets of the bigger cams and the other odds and ends that an aid route may require. How do you rack that gear? My partner have an on-going arguement about the best way to organize the gear. He says that you should put similar sized nuts on a single biner, so that if you drop it you don't lose the whole set of HB's. But I say that you should put the whole set on a single biner so that if you drop it you don't lose everything you have of a single size. I do most of the leading so I usually get my way. And I have yet to drop anything so it hasn't been an issue, yet. What are your opinions on racking nuts? Cams? Crazy aid stuff?

Also, do you do anything special while cleaning the pitch to keep the gear organized so that you can have an efficient changeover at the belay? By the second pitch I usually have a clusterphuck and can never find the piece I want etc. What are your thought on this? Also if anybody else (elcapbuzz, hint hint), who knows how to climb fast has any other advice for moving a little more efficiently I would appreciate it. Thanks



[ This Message was edited by: wigglestick on 2002-12-19 08:52 ]


addiroids


Apr 9, 2002, 6:20 PM
Post #2 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 1046

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

As a fellow slowpoke let me give you some of what I have learned:

Rack by sets. If you have everything colour coded by set, you can re-rack really quickly and you don't drop all of that size. I usually have like 2 sets of nuts on lead, with the ability to tag a spare set up if I need to. The HB's go on two different biners according to set too. I actually have them on 3 biners since I have doubles of brass and singles of larger ones.

Use a tag rack. You are the one working your ass off up there while your partner is daydreaming of the night he will have with Helga. Why can't your partner put the lotion away and be getting all the sh!t organized so as you say, "I am running short on small nuts or TCU's, get them ready" he can get it ready and send it up to you without Presidential stains on all the gear. Besides, if you don't need the #4 or #5 Cam until later in the pitch, there is no reason to carry it up every placement. Just tag it later.

Decide on the racking system before you leave the car. If you are leading most of the stuff, then jacko just has to learn your system and quit crying. Hell, give him the rack while you are drinking beer (Guinness) at the campfire and let him play with it and get acquainted with YOUR style. But if his way is better for BOTH OF YOU, then so be it.

I'm sure Dr. Piton has some stuff to say about this even if it is for a clean rack. But keep in mind that Dr. Piton can only make things efficient. He does not do things fast as you will read on his Trip Reports. I'm sure if Warren Harding and Dean Caldwell(?) were climbing today, they would have someone who may beat them on the "Longest time spent on a wall".

By the way, what wall was it that they spent like 28 days on and told the SAR team to, "Fvck off!!" when they tossed a rope down to them to "rescue" them???

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag

[ This Message was edited by: addiroids on 2002-04-09 20:33 ]


wigglestick


Apr 10, 2002, 9:55 AM
Post #3 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1235

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Addiroids,
Thanks for the response. Glad to know I am not the only one who seems to climb at a snails pace. But I have a few responses to your post. First, do you really think a Tag Rack allows you to climb faster? My problems surfaced on Prodigal Son which is graded IV+. We committed to going light and fast (although it didn't end up that way) and only took 2 ropes (lead line and a 8mm hauline), an atom smasher to hold water/shells/snacks/etc. Since we only had 2 ropes we would only be able to utilize the tag rack for the first 100 feet of a pitch. And the problem with that is that you tend to start running out of gear towards the top of the pitch. Also, it seems to me that I would waste alot of time climbing into the top steps of my aiders, bumbling with a few placements, realizing that I need some gear from the bag, climbing down a few steps, hanging and yelling to my partner, waiting for him to find the gear and tie it to the haulline, drag up the gear, organize it on my rack, climb back up to the top steps, fumble with the gear some more before finally making any forward progress. It may be more work to carry everything you think you need for the pitch on your gear sling but it has got to be faster having everything you need at your finger tips.

I realize that my biggest impediment to speed is my own lack of experience and ineptitude. But I am trying to ferret out "the better way" as soon as possible. I like you idea of color coding everything. My other major problem was that I always seemed to be running out of free biners. I started the route with about 35 free biners hanging from my rack and 3 or 4 pitches up I couldn't find an extra one without having to shift gear from one biner to another etc.


peas


Apr 10, 2002, 10:09 AM
Post #4 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 30, 2002
Posts: 400

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi Wigglestick,
I use a bit of a modified version of addiroids tagging setup. When I start seconding, I take all the pieces out of the anchor and just clip the whole rat's nest to my harness. As I jug the rope, I don't waste a lot of time on re-racking things all that carefully. Once I get to the belay, I hand my partner the messy rack and the former anchor and he hands me the tidy rack that he was just leading with and I hop on lead immediately. Since belaying aid is about as much action as watching paint dry, he has a lot of time to reorganize the mess and send it up to me on the haul line. I can't lead fast enough to beat him to 1/2 rope, so I don't have to worry about that. I also don't have a huge rack, so it's not a problem that he sends me up the whole rack.
That said, I've never tried the multiple tag method. Hope this helps.


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 10, 2002, 10:22 AM
Post #5 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17543

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I notice that the title has changed... Let me guess... The good Dr asked that you ask him the question.

Am I right ??? Let's be honest now.


wigglestick


Apr 10, 2002, 10:27 AM
Post #6 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1235

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

peas, the "rats nest" you describe is exactly what I am hoping to avoid. Also, I usually do 90% of the leading so we can rarely do what you describe.

rrrAdam, you already know the answer so can we not turn this hopefully education thread into another pissing match?


peas


Apr 10, 2002, 11:16 AM
Post #7 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 30, 2002
Posts: 400

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Right, I forgot the part about your partner not leading, but I think that my system still works.

He still cleans using the rat's nest/semi-careless racking technique, but it's you (lucky guy) that gets to start leading with the leftover clean rack from the last pitch.

He (unlucky guy) gets to sort the rats nest and rack while you're leading and send it up to you when he's done. If he doesn't rack fast enough, you'll need some gear before he's done and you'll have to tag multiple times, but if he does rack fast enough, he just lets you know when he's done and you haul it up at your convenience. ie. when you're already low in you aiders.

Either way, I think tagging works faster than both of you reracking at the anchor at the same time.


passthepitonspete


Apr 10, 2002, 4:50 PM
Post #8 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 9, 2001
Posts: 2183

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

First of all, I believe you guys have mixed up "tagging" with "zipping".

When I have talked about a Solo Tag Rack, I am talking about a specific system for soloing.

You don't really use a tag rack when you are "zipping" gear between leader and second and/or third.

This is the topic of a separate post, which I have answered here,

Ask Dr. Piton.... about how to move gear efficiently between leader and second (and/or third)


passthepitonspete


Apr 10, 2002, 4:52 PM
Post #9 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 9, 2001
Posts: 2183

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I am Dr. Piton, and I have created some of the Most Epic Clusterf*cks known to climbingdom!

I also own The Biggest Damn Rack You Have Probably Ever Seen.

When you combine the above two scenarios, then you have the potential to create a living nightmare for yourself while you are on the wall. Yet somehow, I have actually managed to reach the summit of a big wall or two.

The reason I can do so is because there is indeed a better way to rack your gear, and to tame the monster that your big wall aid climbing rack so easily becomes.

There is ALWAYS a better way!

But before you can properly rack your gear, you must first modify your rack.

Please click here to see How To Modify Your Big Wall Gear Rack. In this post, you will find the link that takes you to this sketch of a modified big wall gear rack.

These modifications of your gear rack are fundamental to doing things the better way.


passthepitonspete


Apr 10, 2002, 7:35 PM
Post #10 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 9, 2001
Posts: 2183

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

When it comes to racking your gear on a big wall, the general order of business
is

Chaos! Chaos! Chaos!

This is what we chemical engineers refer to as "entropy" - the spontaneous tendency towards disorder.

If you have ever climbed a big wall - or better yet, tried to climb a big wall but failed - then you will understand exactly what I mean.

"You must alvays have a vell-organicized rack," or you will forever be fighting your gear and getting nowhere. Wigglestick has found this out the hard way, as have I, incidentally. Perhaps if you read this post and do as I suggest, you can find out the easy way instead. You can learn by avoiding my mistakes, for I have made many.

As Paul has pointed out, just because my rack is efficiently organized and I can climb fast does not mean that I must climb fast. In fact, it's because my rack is so well organized that I can take my time and smell the daffodils. Those obsessed with speed might do well to consider pursuing a bit of Big Wall Leisure, instead.

"On a toujours la choix!"



Note to Impressionable Youths:

While the benefits of having a well organized lead rack cannot be understated, the same does not hold true for your desk or locker at school. You should only keep these areas as neat and tidy as you need to in order to keep your schoolteacher off of your back. To keep your school work area any neater would be a colossal waste of your precious time and energy which you could otherwise invest climbing. (This is not to imply in any way that you should invest too much time in climbing - the benefits of loafing cannot be understated either.

Those who may doubt that I practise what I preach need only check out my office, assuming of course you can open the door through all of the clutter.




HOW TO RACK YOUR RACK

I am going to divide this post into two parts, the first being how to rack your stuff on carabiners, and the second being how to put the stuff on your rack.



RACKING YOUR GEAR ON CRABS

When it comes to racking your gear on crabs, you must ALWAYS RACK FOR REDUNDANCY! This means that you must NEVER have two or more of the same thing on any single crab.

If you learn nothing else from this post, LEARN THIS:

*** RACK FOR REDUNDANCY ***

For instance, if you only have two half-inch sawed-offs, then you would never rack both of them on the same crab. What on earth would you do if you ever dropped that one carabiner, and you were faced with a crack where absolutely nothing but a sawed-off baby would fit? Your whole ascent could grind to a halt on the spot!

ALWAYS MAINTAIN REDUNDANCY in your racking. You must develop this habit from the beginning, and stick with it. Because sooner or later you will drop gear. This is not prophecy - this is fact.

Wigglestick is correct in his post above, where his BWT partner suggests racking similar-sized wired stoppers on the same carabiner. While Dr. Piton does do this himself on such rare occasions as he goes free climbing, this is NOT the better way to rack wires on the big wall! You need only read of my ascent of the West Face of El Cap to understand the benefits of maintaining redundancy in your racking systems.



RACKING LABELS - THE BETTER WAY!

A racking label is a temporary piece of coloured tape that you stick on gear to categorize it into a particular grouping.

For instance, I have a blue set of nuts, and I also have a green set of nuts. Each set goes on its own carabiner to maintain redundancy. This way if I am stupid enough to drop one of these carabiners, I do not lose all of one size of stoppers! I still have a complete set in backup.

I also have two sets of micro-nuts, divided into two groups with racking labels.

My hooks are divided into three sets, each identified by its own colour of sling. Same idea applies - my red hooks go on one crab, white on another, black on a third. If I drop any one crab, then I'm not completely buggered.

If you have read my ascent of Mescalito, then you will realize the benefits of not putting all of your hooks onto one crab!

I used to have racking labels on my pins and on my cams, in order to divide them into three sets. I no longer bother.

In the case of the latter, I now rack each of my cams on its own colour-coded designated carabiner. For instance, each of my yellow Aliens goes on its own yellow-gated crab, and my red #1 Camalot goes on a red gated crab. Paul has already mentioned above the benefits of colour coding his gear into sets, eh?

If you cannot afford to put each cam on its own designated carabiner, then you might want to divide your cams into two or three sets using racking labels to help maintain redundancy, and make sure you don't accidentally stick two of the same size on any one carabiner. With the myriad of cam manufacturers and colours, this mistake can be easily made.

In the case of pitons, I simply make a point out of not putting two of the same pins on any single crab.

Note that racking labels are temporary. This means that if you hook up with a partner and need to organize your gear into sets, you can do so with a temporary piece of coloured tape. Don't confuse your racking labels with your gear identification labels, if you use such traditional big wall technology.

Arnold voice:

"Real Mahnly Men use nail polish to mark zer gear. Just do not use pinky-purple, or I shall haf to kill you."



RACKING WIRES AND CAMS

Please see above.



RACKING PITONS

Rack your pins on oval carabiners. You need to use ovals with their smooth curves. Buy a few ovals for this purpose if you don't already own some. Ovals aren't much good for anything else anyway!

I usually put three or four pins on each oval. If you rack Lost Arrows, then you might put a #1, #2 and #3 on one oval. Note that if you alternate their orientation, Lost Arrows sit better on the crab.

For racking angles, I might put a baby, a stubby and a standard on one oval. Always maintain redundancy, especially with key pieces like sawed-offs!

Ditto for beaks and peckers - just make sure you break them down into two or three sets. Racking labels can be handy for novices to put on pins, until such time as you are so conditioned that you would never even dream of putting two of the same thing on one carabiner.

Some people like to throw all of their pins into a bag like a Fish Beef Bag. Just make sure you have two bags - one for each set of pins. It is hard to maintain redundancy with this system unless you have racking labels on your pins.



RACKING HEADS

It's not really practicable to put racking labels on heads. I usually keep two of each size on a single crab, and leave the rest on the tag rack if I'm soloing, or with my partner to zip up as needed.



RACKING HOOKS

As mentioned above, divide your hooks into sets, and keep them in sets by putting one set on the same colour of sling. You can put one set on one carabiner.

Store each set of hooks in a little drawstring bag that you put around the hooks when they are attached to their crab but are not in use. This will save you
endless heartache and entanglement! Hooks are designed to hook [duh] and this is precisely what they will do.



RACKING NYLON

If ever there were a place where I might cheat a bit on my redundancy, it is racking nylon.

I use wide-gate standard crabs to rack my short slings, standard slings, double-length slings, tie-offs and keepers. I might have as many as ten or fifteen items of nylon on a single crab.

Bring a TON of nylon on a big wall! You will use it for everything - even taped down [or prusiked-down] for pro. Your belays, bivis and gear will eat the stuff up! So pack accordingly.



RACKING FREE BINERS

There is one fundamental premise that you must internalize, and it is that you CANNOT have enough free carabiners!! Having enough free crabs is even more important than having enough nylon.

It is simply not possible to have too many of the things! They are the rigging glue that holds together your machine. They disappear so fast you won't believe it. If you are "always" looking for a free carabiner, then you didn't bring enough, did you?

If this ever again happens to you, then you will hear my words mocking you,

"I told you to bring more free biners! Sheesh."

Rack your free biners in "footballs" of seven. I refer to "christmas trees" of seven free biners as "footballs" since when you watch the game, you learn to count in sevens. This was told to me by my Merrican partner on Lurking Fear - little did he know we have our own Canadian Football League up here, which also counts in sevens. And like, we only need three downs, eh?

I prefer to rack my free biners in "footballs" because I like the way they hang, and they are easy to count at a glance.

I can't help but laugh when I read of Matt running out of free crabs! Funny how that happens, eh?

After I have racked everything, much of which goes on its own designated crabs, I like to have about seven or eight "footballs" of free crabs left over. You just can't have too many!

[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-12-19 12:06 ]

(This post was edited by cliffhanger9 on Mar 26, 2013, 5:56 PM)


passthepitonspete


Apr 10, 2002, 8:27 PM
Post #11 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 9, 2001
Posts: 2183

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

HOW TO PUT STUFF ONTO YOUR RACK

The whole idea here is that you don't get stuff tangled.

Your wires will tangle with your nylon, your heads will tangle with your cams, and your hooks .... well, your hooks will tangle with EVERYTHING!

Sheesh.

Believe it or not, there is a better way to put all this stuff on your rack so it doesn't tangle.

Chemical engineers know that "like dissolves like," so in the same way as you know that ethanol dissolves extremely well in water - and if you don't know this, you have no business being on a big wall - then you should also know that nylon mixes well with nylon, and metal mixes well with metal.

What doesn't mix is nylon and metal!

Heads and sometimes stoppers are notoriously nasty - the burrs on the ends of the cables will preferentially seek out every chunk of nylon on your rack, and magically stick to it like a schoolteacher sticks post-its on a blackboard.

Scary, eh?

So we will be racking stuff to reduce entanglement.



GETTING YOUR RACKING SYSTEMS SUSSED

Now that you have properly racked all of your gear onto carabiners, it is time to put the stuff onto your rack.

You should note that I am left handed - you might want to substitute left for right in this next bit.

The important part here is to STAY ORGANIZED!!!

You must ALWAYS rack your stuff in the SAME way and in the SAME place, or else you will not be able to find it! Your rack could well weigh fifty pounds or more - it's flippin' HUGE - and if you don't know precisely where that little micro-cam is, you ain't gonna find it, mate.

Equally essential is that your cleaner must also rack the gear on his cleaner's rack in exactly the same way as you rack it on your lead rack! As Paul says, get your racking system sussed before you leave the parking lot! Figuring it out at the first belay is no place to start.

When it comes to racking, you and your partner MUST BE ONE. Get this sussed ahead of time, and get it dialled.



RACK WHILE YOU CLEAN

Now, as the cleaner cleans the pitch, he MUST rack the gear AS HE CLEANS! Waiting until you get to the belay to organize the rack is not the better way! This is probably the most easily prevented time waster on the big wall. The cleaner's rack should be equipped with rack tethers just like the leader's rack. This is especially important when soloing so you can get the rack off of you right away. It also needs to have the rear nylon subracks and the front subracks installed, too.

If the cleaner has racked his rack exactly the same as the leader, then changeovers are a snap!



LEFT SIDE OF RACK

I put all my metal on the left side - this being my pins, heads, chisels and punch, and extra large cams (four inch and above.)

I tend to keep the smaller things like blades and arrows towards the front, and the big honkin' angles towards the back and the bottom.

I also put my hooks which are not in use, and which are stored in their drawstring bags, on the left side.

Since we are using a double gear sling, we have plenty of room.



RIGHT SIDE OF RACK

I put all of my cams, with the exception of my extra large cams, on the right side. This keeps the slings on the cams from tangling with the metal. I have all of my Aliens on the top right gear loop, and I have my one inch to three inch cams on the bottom right gear loop.

This is a monumental pile of cams! Fortunately, I can actually find what I'm looking for because of the colour coding.



FRONT SUBRACKS

On my left front subrack, I put my wired stoppers and micro-stoppers. I also put my hooks in use and my heads in use up here on the left front subrack.

On the right front subrack, I put a couple "footballs" of free biners.

The front subracks is also where I'll stick my favourite pieces, or the piece I think I'll need next.



REAR NYLON SUBRACKS

On the rear subracks, I put all of my nylon where it dangles out of the way and doesn't tangle in anything. When I need it, I just reach behind and pull it to the front.



PERSONAL RACK

The Personal Rack is just the gear slings on my harness.

On the rear left, I have my hammer holster.

On the front left, I have my funkness device and nut cleaning tool. I also have my personal carabiner with duct tape on 3mm cord, ATC, big wall gloves, Swiss army knife and cord, and lighter.

I sometimes hang my pouch, which contains my lunch, penlight, ibuprofen, headlamp as needed, beer, and inflatable Helga doll with airpump, from my front left personal rack.

On my front right personal rack, I have my jugs, Grigri, and camera.

On my rear right personal rack, I put stuff for the belay which would include the compound pulley for hauling, or the hauling ratchet. I would also stick the cordalettes on here, too.




HOLY FRIG! ALL THIS STUFF IS HEAVY!

Well, yeah ...

But like, you don't take it all with you at once, eh?

Only a BWT would do that.

Sheesh.

If you are climbing with your partner, you will have a zip line attached to the back or side of your harness with a locking carabiner. You need to use a locker because this is a critical link.

When you need extra gear, your partner can zip stuff up to you using the zip line.

If you are soloing, then you don't want to carry all your spare gear with you. Instead, you have all your spare gear hanging on your solo tag rack, so when you need some stuff, you can just pull it up, eh?

When I solo El Cap, I do it wearing about a fifteen pound lead rack!





I am Dr. Piton,

and I am too lazy to want to carry any more weight on my rack than I absolutely must.

(This post was edited by cliffhanger9 on Mar 26, 2013, 5:58 PM)


krustyklimber


Apr 12, 2002, 6:42 PM
Post #12 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 25, 2002
Posts: 1650

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

 I GET IT!!!

Jeff


passthepitonspete


Apr 15, 2002, 11:48 PM
Post #13 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 9, 2001
Posts: 2183

Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

When it comes to speed climbing, incidentally, Dr. Piton is the last person you should ask!

Dr. Piton has been recognized by Hans Florine on speedclimbing.com as setting a different TYPE of speed record!

If you want to learn the tricks of fast ascents, then you should ask the
master of sick speed ascents. Why don't you Ask El Cap Buzz, eh?


mikeinidaho


Apr 20, 2003, 12:18 PM
Post #14 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 19, 2003
Posts: 20

Re-Racking between pitches [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Dr. Peton, this seems to work for me --- I have always'd switched all my gear from my big wall rack to (or from) my partners. We each have a double sling wall-rack system, and we re-rack everything. The reason is that I am very particular about where everything goes on MY rack. While my second is jugging up I carefully organize the rack onto the anchor. I will most often organize everything using a daisy chain that I keep in the top of the "party bag"* - I put the daisy chain on the anchor horizontally, so the belay stance has a whole lotta places to clip & organize everything. This is superiopr to "clotheslining" onto some section of cordage on the anchor.

So the second gets to the anchor and (after racking as he cleans) clips the tidy load of gear - one piece at a time - from the anchor/daisy to his big wall rack.

I think I know what you think of this (having just read your post) But, lemme know what YOU (Doctor) think of my humble methodology.

*Party Bag (n); Large stuffsack with anchor points. The ONE main bag you pull out of the top of the pig. Contains snacks, water, duct tape, topo, sun block, lip stuff, tiny camera and daisy chain.


mikeinidaho


Apr 20, 2003, 12:30 PM
Post #15 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 19, 2003
Posts: 20

Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Now, when you say a "FOOTBALL" of 7 crabs , what exactally do you mean?

Please explain exactally how you buid one of these.

I build a set of 5 non-lockers. A single crab with 4 crabs clipped to it. It is hung on my gear-sling by the single biner, I remove the 4 crabs, one at a time, and finish with that single crab. I can do math easier with groups of 5. Math using 7? Geeesh!

Also - when you clip your many sewn nylon runners to the gear loops on the back of your gear-sling... do you clip 20 runners into one biner? Do they all hang down 24 inches (metric 65cm?), do you tie 'em up short somehow?

DO TELL...


flamer


Apr 20, 2003, 3:04 PM
Post #16 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Matt,
Hey Bro!
First of all I am hoping that Ammon will impart some of his vast knowledge of speed climbing! Second I would recommend reading Hans and Bills "skills for more efficient climbing" book. They cover racking systems (as they purtain to speedy ascents) quite well.
And lastly I'll chip in my 2 cents. First of all I have to ask...did you really carry all that stuff for a one day ascent of Prodigal??
If you want to do speed ascents you should TREAT THEM LIKE LONG FREE ROUTES! What I mean by this is...NO HAULING, NO "AID" rack. Of course you should be honest with yourself concerning what is over your head and what is not.
Both climbers should carry their own water and food, my main wall partner and I use camelbacks. Sometimes the second will carry a camelback with a larger "extra pack" area and we will stuff jackets in here.
As far as racking goes the first thing is KEEP THE AMOUNT OF GEAR YOU CARRY TO A MINIMUM!! Look at your intended route....Take Prodigall for example. There are a TON of good bolts on the route right? The belays are Bomber right? So forget that 3rd set of TCU's...do you really need 2 sets of large cams? Instead of leaving gear clip the bolts only and supplement them with the occasional bomber nut. You will obviouly be looking at larger falls but that's a risk you take for moving faster. On routes like Prodigal almost every placement is bomber...you have to take it on a route by route bia's(sp?).
When racking I put every cam on it's own biner(wire gates are key for weight). Then I clip one of the same size cams to the rack and the other to the biner of the first.
Think about this...do you really need a big wall double rack for a "Long free route"? Try using your standard gear sling.
Belays and changeovers are critical. Have 2 "anchor kits" that you leap frog up the wall. On routes like Prodigal with 2 or 3 good bolts at every belay try this for you kit...
3lockers, 2-3 standard Krabs, 2-10 foot cordelettes. I'm not going to go through set up(unless somebody really wants to know) Now make evry belay the same as the last(if possible). This way you and your partner know exactly what to expect at every station, flake the ropes the same way at every station. continued in next post.....


flamer


Apr 20, 2003, 3:12 PM
Post #17 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

When your partner reach's the belay you should both know how and when the rerack will take place. This will change according to strategy(leading in blocks etc.) and personal preferance. Clipping the rack onto the anchor so the second can pick and chose is a tremendous waste of time! Instead you should wait and clip the gear Directly onto the next leaders rack...avoiding even handing it off if possible...remember seconds turn into minutes. Minimize every movement.
I have alot more tips but I don't want to RANT TO MUCH!! I'd be happy to answer any Questions I can. Of course Ammon and others are more versed in speed stuff than I, but I do enjoy(and prefer) racing up routes!!
josh
The less you carry...the faster you go!!


alpinestylist


Apr 20, 2003, 3:45 PM
Post #18 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

You could do MUCH worse than to listen to Flamer. He is fur sher is a light is right proponent. RANT on!

His system is dialed, aggressively downsize, less is more.

Here is one way I have done things on single push's.

In Zion, on trade routes, or C1 spots. Put a couple cams of the appropriate size (on prodigal son you could do this with nuts too), and keep a single set, racked on their own biners to protect.

You have to lose the pig...no hauling. everybody carry their own crap (even leader), or have the second wear a pack.

once you do that you can begin to short fix, having experience soloing with aid is helpful here. On walls with one partner I take two dynamic ropes. Ideally with any ascent you would want to only carry one, but two lets you zip/tag gear from the follower mid pitch, and gives you a back up if something janky happens to lead line. but nothing janky ever happens on a wall, eh? :wink:

I disagree with the rat nest cleaning. I think it helps to show up as the follower with some racking system. This is how your 35 misc. biners disappear en route. Break the draws or shoulder slings off the piece. Rack all the nuts on a biner, and have all the cams on one biner, on one cleaning sling.

Always have two complete anchor kits, cordalette and lockers/non lockers that stay with the cord.

Gotta quit hauling, leapfrog a little further, topstep, free whatever you can( even if just a couple of moves), and SHORT FIX!


freezerfrost


Apr 20, 2003, 6:31 PM
Post #19 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 19, 2002
Posts: 134

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

pass the pins dude, you got OCD or sumpin? whatever happened to KISS?


flamer


Apr 22, 2003, 8:32 AM
Post #20 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Dude! I'm taking what Mr. Alpinestylist said about my comments as a serious compliament!
Coming from the guy who holds the current speed record on the Hallocingen wall....sorry Brent had to say it....
josh
p.s. my spelling sux


passthepitonspete


Apr 22, 2003, 9:18 AM
Post #21 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 9, 2001
Posts: 2183

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Speed? Sheesh.

It is a little-known fact that I appear on Hans Florine's webpage in the speed climbing records on El Cap section. So there.


rockprodigy


Apr 22, 2003, 10:08 AM
Post #22 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'll add my two cents as well...

If you're on C2 or less, don't even use a tag/zip line. Are you telling me you can't carry all the gear you need for a pitch?? If you can't, then you're using WAY too much gear...BACKCLEAN! Hauling up gear mid-pitch wastes a whole lot of time, and from a physics perspective you're doing exactly the same amount of work as if you just carried it the first time.

Exception: If you're short fixing every pitch, which you should do, then you will need a tag/zip line to get the gear back from the previous pitch.

Keep in mind, if you short fix, you don't have to use the established belays...you can stretch the rope out longer (depending on how fast your second is). If you short fix, then you're not at any one belay for very long, so why do you need a big fat ledge? You don't...you're belayer may be pissed, but screw him, he's not leading.

Another way to go faster on easy aid is to use only two aiders, not 3 or 4. They just complicate things and slow you down, make you more comfortable, so you want to stand around wasting time.

Wear climbing shoes, they will also encourage you to keep moving, not standing and they allow you to make more high steps and stuff.

Absolutely do not haul if you're diong a route in a day. Your second is quite capable of jugging with a 50 lbs pack...if it's any heavier, you have too much stuff for a one day ascent. Lead with a camelback. Aid climbing isn't that strenuous that you can't have some weight on you...imagine if you were doing hard aid...you'd have 30-40lbs of steel pins hanging from you!

Try crack jumaring...this can work very well in zion where the cracks tend to be very uniform. Instead of leapfrogging your aiders, slide them up "inchworm" style as if you were jumaring. This works well where the crack is the same size for a long stretch (most of Moonlight Buttress, upper (5.10)pitches of Spaceshot, etc.), otherwise, use the standard method.

OK, that's enough for now.


alpinestylist


Apr 22, 2003, 12:06 PM
Post #23 of 23 (13026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193

Re: Oh Doctor - Please define "footballs"... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I forgot who just mentioned stretching pitches when you are short fixing...

but I don't think that is always the best. If you ARE not shortfixing, then yes stretch that rope for all it's worth.

If you are short fixing and go 190 feet (60m cord), then you will only have 10-15 feet of rope to begin leading with, you will reach its end before the second arrives, thus negating any speed savings.

Go 160 feet, pull up 40 and GO...


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Big Wall and Aid Climbing

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?
$13.46 (10% off)
$14.36 (10% off)
$17.06 (10% off)
$4.05 (10% off)



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook