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jdean
Jul 9, 2003, 11:53 AM
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Hey Climbsomething,
debates like this are great ways to flush out the punks, blowrod gumby wannabes, and general know-nothing dumbasses on this board. That way we can give them hell for months to come until someone finally catches them "practicing what they preach" and beats the hell out of them. So I say DEBATE ON!
Mj
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mike_ok
Jul 9, 2003, 1:52 PM
Post #27 of 168
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In reply to: The World is not perfect and leaving gear is up to the owner, just be ready to face the fact that it might be taken, and its your own fault if it is. you cannot blame it on anyone else. Modern gear is made to be taken off the wall after climbing, if not by the owner, maybe someone else. CLIMB ON!!!
Earlier I used an example of a wallet. Let's change it. Say its a car. I agree, if someone leaves their keys in a car, doors unlocked, they're asking for it to be stolen. No doubt. But that doesn't change the fact that the guy who drives off in it is STEALING it. Its not like when the police find him he can say "hey, fair game. He left the keys in it."
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scottcody
Jul 9, 2003, 2:58 PM
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Booty Rules are as follows:
Removable gear found while climbing a route can be considered booty if the owner of the gear has not request that the gear be retrieved prior to the climber attaining the gear.
I would argue that in sport climbing the rule should be amended to state that the prospective bootier must climb the route in good style. (i.e. no dogging your way up)
This means that:
If your project is my warm up and you have left for the day without leaving any sign (i.e. quick links on the hanger side of the draw, red ribbon, pad lock on the first bolt, etc.) that you are working the route, then I am within my right to claim booty.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 3:19 PM
Post #29 of 168
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In reply to: Booty Rules are as follows: Removable gear found while climbing a route can be considered booty if the owner of the gear has not request that the gear be retrieved prior to the climber attaining the gear. I would argue that in sport climbing the rule should be amended to state that the prospective bootier must climb the route in good style. (i.e. no dogging your way up) This means that: If your project is my warm up and you have left for the day without leaving any sign (i.e. quick links on the hanger side of the draw, red ribbon, pad lock on the first bolt, etc.) that you are working the route, then I am within my right to claim booty.
Thief.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 3:23 PM
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In reply to: ... take them if they are there for more than a day.
Thief.
In reply to: PS. I know I have no room to talk (Just barley redpointing 5.10's)....)
The only valid point in your entire post.
-Jay
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under_score
Jul 9, 2003, 3:38 PM
Post #31 of 168
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Hey everybody, the wall side of the QD's consisted of one of these puppies:
http://treetools.com/catalog/mallionrapide/k403.html
Just like at the Gym, where they have QD's up for all to use, they make them semi-permanent. it's like stealing a stop sign. Anything that you need to remove from the wall with a tool other than a puller or maybe a hammer was meant to stay. what if i took my ratchet up climbs with me and pulled all the bolts out so i could take the hangers? stupid.
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scottcody
Jul 9, 2003, 3:39 PM
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If you think so... :roll:
I think leaving unnecessary fixed gear (i.e. draws) is littering.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 4:24 PM
Post #33 of 168
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In reply to: If you think so... :roll: I think leaving unnecessary fixed gear (i.e. draws) is littering.
You don't make the rules. This issue has been decided by consensus. You have the right to disagree, but not to steal. It's not your call.
-Jay
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mreardon
Jul 9, 2003, 4:49 PM
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If you take something that wasn't yours, you stole. If you can't understand that some people don't climb projects every day and feel the need to remove the draws, leave them at the base of the climb, otherwise you stole. If you think that draws left on a route is "litter" then never show up at Owen's River Gorge, the VRG, Yosemite (fixed ropes everywhere), or most any area because you'll be offended, and yes, if you remove the draws and walk away, you stole. Lastly, I managed to catch one person in the process of stealing my stuff. Forget karma, I'm a bit more proactive and had no problem delivering the payback in person. He barely limped away. And I'm the nice one in our bunch. If a hundred bucks (if that) worth of gear is really worth all that aggravation to you, then by all means continue the practice, because you obviously have bigger issues to deal with.
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pico23
Jul 9, 2003, 4:59 PM
Post #35 of 168
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: personally I think if there are draws on a route. they are mine if I can get to them. Its kindof like a reward for me if I can get that far on a route. Then you are a thief. -Jay You're walking along the street, you see a ten dollar bill. You pick it up and put it in your pocket. You're walking along the street, you see a wallet. *Hopefully* you pick it up and try to find the owner.
Typically, if a wallet is returned to you the cash is missing. It's expected. Even if you carry $500 in the wallet you can expect it all to be gone and if it isn't you are very lucky. This is what I call a return fee. If it's returned within 12-24hrs most people consider this a reasonable fee considering the hassel of replacing the entire contents of the wallet. Just as a note, I have never found a wallet (therefore never taken anyones money, before you start calling me a thief) and I have only lost my wallet when in high school and it only had a few bucks in it and a learners permit, high school ID and liesure/parks pass. The wallet was returned but the money missing. I do know people who have lost wallets several times (my brother) and each time the money was missing but everything else returned.
I'm not a sport climber so I can't comment on the whole project thing but if I was on a trad route with gear left, it's mine!!! As a matter of fact, I'll often aid a section I can't climb just get the booty that I spot. I would return it if I found out it was left for an accident or a rescue but for anything else it is mine. Likewise if I leave it it would be someone elses booty gear.
I wish someone could explain to me why anyone would leave $100+ worth of draws on a route in the first place? Why not just re-place the draws the next time you climb and not have to worry about someone who doesn't understand what a project route is?
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 5:27 PM
Post #36 of 168
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In reply to: I wish someone could explain to me why anyone would leave $100+ worth of draws on a route in the first place? Why not just re-place the draws the next time you climb and not have to worry about someone who doesn't understand what a project route is?
Because cleaning and putting up the draws can be harder than climbing the route. I've worked routes where putting up the draws took so much effort that I couldn't work the route again that day.
-Jay
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robmcc
Jul 9, 2003, 5:32 PM
Post #37 of 168
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In reply to: You don't make the rules. This issue has been decided by consensus. You have the right to disagree, but not to steal. It's not your call. -Jay
Therein lies the contradiction. Consensus vs. Rules. Consensus doesn't make rules, it makes consensus. There's also a consensus "leave no trace" ethic. Sport climbers have decided they're not part of that consensus, for example, and that placing bolts on otherwise unprotectable rock is ok. Consensus gets you absolutely nothing more than the cooperation of those willing to go along with the consensus, which is most climbers, but not all. There seems to be consensus that for various "crimes", you should exact physical revenge on the perpetrator. Chopping, retrobolting, stealing gear, and the like come to mind. Oddly, that goes against the societal consensus that you don't take the law into your own hands, and the rule (law) that generally speaking, you don't get to beat someone up. I guess you pick which consensus you like and hope you don't have to answer to the people making up the other consensus.
My personal feeling, which I'm sure puts me in the blowhard gumby category, is that leaving draws up when you aren't climbing is an unwarranted eyesore, but then I don't like the bolts either. :)
In the end, you just have to deal with the fact that you're dealing with a diverse population. Climbers on the whole seem to be decent people, but there are thieves among us. There are probably those who'd feel they're taking a moral stand by nabbing your draws, though I'm not among them. If you leave your stuff unattended, you aren't leaving it at the mercy of the consensus, you're leaving it at the mercy of any person of undetermined ethics who may wander by.
Maybe I'm missing the point. Do you (the original poster) want sympathy? You've got it. That's awful that you're out the money. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that the set of climbers and thieves intersect. Do you want to expand awareness among climbers that a full set of draws on a route are not booty? Good idea, probably good way to do it (posting here), but it won't deter thieves.
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scottcody
Jul 9, 2003, 5:49 PM
Post #38 of 168
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In reply to: You don't make the rules. This issue has been decided by consensus. You have the right to disagree, but not to steal. It's not your call. -Jay
What on earth makes you think that I made up the booty rule. Is everyone who has ever collected booty from a route a thief.
Since I am so far off the mark on my understanding of what constitutes "fair booty". Please enlighten me.
robmcc, good point thanks
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 6:02 PM
Post #39 of 168
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In reply to: In reply to: You don't make the rules. This issue has been decided by consensus. You have the right to disagree, but not to steal. It's not your call. -Jay What on earth makes you think that I made up the booty rule.
Because project draws are not booty. They're not yours for the taking, and there is no such "booty rule" saying they are. Thief.
In reply to: Since I am so far off the mark on my understanding of what constitutes "fair booty". Please enlighten me.
Read the thread, if you can. Never mind: On a sport route, bail gear is booty, project gear is not. Is that so hard to understand?
-Jay
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foograbbinstone
Jul 9, 2003, 6:21 PM
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Back to the car thing!!!
Just fueling the fire here. If someone leaves the keys in the car and you make off with it,you can't be charged with theft. You can be charged with a lesser charge of unauthorized use!! Not that it matters your still a thief but I just figured I'ld clear that up.
To the topic at hand, it seems to me pretty straight forward to me. I'm no superstar, just a climber I own draws of my own and other assorted gear!!
Multiple pieces would lead me to believe I was looking at a project.(Rumney has multiple routes with draws currently in place) A Single piece is a bailer,or the 2nd couldn't remove a piece while following(trad)!!
I call that bootey!!! What you choose to do with said bootey,is entirely up to you! You wanna keep it? Keep it!....... You wanna post in lost and found
Post it!!.............you wanna shove it where the sun don't shine? Shove it!!\
Be forewarned though, stealing(cause that's what it is) the draws from someone's project, is akin to , screwing with a Lobstrermans traps! They don't fool around, they shoot first and ask questions later!!
Do you really wanna get your ash kicked and hospitalized over a quickdraw!!!
Next time you consider pilfering something, ask yourself, Is today a good day to go the hospital!!!!!!!!!
.0000000000012 cents worth
foo
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alpiner
Jul 9, 2003, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: On a sport route, bail gear is booty, project gear is not. Is that so hard to understand? -Jay
If it's public land, left gear is littering. Period. The only question is how long it remains before removal. On private land, leave it up for as long as you wish and shoot the trespassers.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: On a sport route, bail gear is booty, project gear is not. Is that so hard to understand? -Jay If it's public land, left gear is littering. Period.
Frankly, that is just plain bullshit. Let me guess, you don't like bolts either.
-Jay
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leaverbiner
Jul 9, 2003, 6:47 PM
Post #43 of 168
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In reply to: Back to the car thing!!! Just fueling the fire here. If someone leaves the keys in the car and you make off with it,you can't be charged with theft. You can be charged with a lesser charge of unauthorized use!! Not that it matters your still a thief but I just figured I'ld clear that up. foo
I know it's a bit off topic, but I had to respond to the above quote . . . Foo, you are incorrect . . . whether or not someone left the keys in a car, whether they left it running or not has no bearing on the crime one is charged with . . . what can influence the charge, or the probability of conviction is the INTENT of the person taking the car. Also called scienter or mens rea. See, to be prosecuted for a crime there are two primary elements that must be proven, Actus Reus and Mens Rea. That is, an act or an ommission (Actus Reus) and a culpable mental state (Mens Rea). The easiest way for this to be grasped is by disection of the offenses associated with the killing of another person. For example, most people are aware of the generic terms manslaughter and murder, and having watched too many tv shows know that each of these terms can be broken down into degree, often called Man 1, Man 2, Murder 1, Murder 2 etc . . . Most states have slightly different designations, but the concepts are the same . . . for each of these offenses it is primarily the intent, or lack thereof, of the actor that determines the offense . . . you can have a negligent killing of another person, a reckless killing of another person, a purposeful/intentional killing, or a premeditated and intentional killing . . . its the mental state that matters most at this stage. Back to the car analogy . . . if the person stealing (generic for taking without permission) the car didn't intend to keep the car, but merely intended to take it for a joy ride, he may only be able to be charged with an offense such as "unlawful use" (there are too many terms used by the different states to try to describe them all), where as if he intends to keep it permanantly or sell it to another his crime will be in the nature of "theft" . . . The only "act" that matters is the taking of the personal property of another. Keys in the ignition do not alter the "act" as they do not amount to an abandonment or permission.
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galt
Jul 9, 2003, 6:52 PM
Post #44 of 168
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Webster says... "Steal - 1.To take (the property of another) without right or permission."
You have NO RIGHT to take that which does not belong to you. Crag, gym, car, bank... it doesn't matter. If I left my car at a trail head for 2 days, would you consider that booty? Why not, isn't it "Littering?"
When people bail from routes they don't leave their best draw. Heck, 9 times out of 10 you'll get stuck with a single biner (probably their worst one), do you really want to use it? My life is worth much more then a worn out $6 biner.
The definition also says "...without... permission." Climbers (as a whole) have formed an ethic of taking booty. Fair enough, if you play in another ballpark you have to play by their rules... However, don't expect anyone to condone what you are doing. In the end it is what it is.. Stealing.
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alpiner
Jul 9, 2003, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: Frankly, that is just plain s___. Let me guess, you don't like bolts either. -Jay
And that's the attitude gets crags closed. If a sportclimber doesn't like the law, just say it's s___ and ignore it. Since the route in question is in Spain, it may well have been on private land. But if it's on public land, then leaving draws is simply littering. No different than leaving a pile of butts and bottles strewn around and saying to a ranger "it's okay, we're working on a project and will clean it up in a week or 3."
Wrong, I'm all for bolts. They certainly aren't an eyesore like abandoned draws with shiny biners. Let me guess, you chisel routes too.
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benpullin
Jul 9, 2003, 7:08 PM
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Hey scottcody -- there are a ton of fixed ropes in Yosemite leading up to Heart Ledge on El Cap, I'm sure a few to Sickle, and heaps of fixed heads, gear, and ropes on Leaning Tower -- I was there last week! Let's go man, if we hurry we may never have to buy another rope for the rest of our climbing careers! Think of all the money we'll save!
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pico23
Jul 9, 2003, 7:09 PM
Post #47 of 168
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In reply to: If you leave your stuff unattended, you aren't leaving it at the mercy of the consensus, you're leaving it at the mercy of any person of undetermined ethics who may wander by.
Or someone who is as ignorant as I am to the ethics of and existance of "projects". I know better now (see these threads aren't useless banter afterall) and so I would leave your draws. All the same I'd have hoped you wouldn't have given me a beating for just being ignorant if I'd have been caught cleaning your draws that I'd have assumed were abandoned on a public rock face. They key is you (probably) don't own the route or rock face so the draws in a sense are litter. I'd have to say, now that I know, I wouldn't clean them as booty gear but I can see some peoples valid arguement that they are litter.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Frankly, that is just plain s___. Let me guess, you don't like bolts either. -Jay And that's the attitude gets crags closed.
No it's not. There are or have been draws up on every single sport crag I've climbed. This has not threatened access at a single one.
-Jay
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alpiner
Jul 9, 2003, 7:24 PM
Post #49 of 168
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In reply to: There are or have been draws up on every single sport crag I've climbed. This has not threatened access at a single one. -Jay
If you believe that, then you're dumber than you sound.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There are or have been draws up on every single sport crag I've climbed. This has not threatened access at a single one. -Jay If you believe that, then you're dumber than you sound.
There is nothing to "believe." The crags are open. We have chats with the rangers. No one complains about draws being left up. No one. This is the real world.
-Jay
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