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wc
Sep 10, 2003, 12:07 AM
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Just curious if anyone out there would be willing to pay for a training program specifically designed for bouldering. It is a complex and involved program based on years of research and experimentation by a practicing Physical Therapist/boulderer. A few of his friends (myself included) have tried it and it definitely is effective.
The problem is all the information needs to be compiled and organized into a format that can be used by others, the word of mouth/email thing just doesn't work. The problem is, nobody wants to put the time into the project for nothing.
So do people think there is enough training documentation out there, no matter how misguided it is? Or are people interested in getting their hands on a solid, scientifically based training program that works?
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wyomingclimber
Sep 10, 2003, 4:38 PM
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Why not call around to the climbing book publishers and see if anyone is interested in publishing it as a book?
Based on the huge increase in the popularity of bouldering and goofy power trick, particularly by the younger generation, the fact that there isn't a training book specifically for bouldering(that I know of) seems strange.
Of course, there are some good training books out there by Goddard/Neumann and Horst, but they tend to be really technical and include a lot of aspects that aren't really relevant to the boulderer.
I would think that a relatively simple, fun to read book focusing on cycling power and strength training would be really popular.
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wc
Sep 10, 2003, 4:46 PM
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Yeah, he talked to some publishers and got the typical response of "sure, send us a rough draft and we will see if we are interested." Which is what we expected, but nobody wants to put the hours of time into putting it all together if nobody is going to be interested... I guess it would just have to be a "lobor of love" thingy.
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wyomingclimber
Sep 10, 2003, 4:54 PM
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You should talk to them a little more and try to come to a compromise.
I've been involved in the publishing industry for years and it seems like you could get a deal done with less than a rough draft. Maybe a detailed proposal with a sample chapter, an outline, a list of the author's qualifications, and an explanation of highlights (ie what sets this book apart from others.)
I mean if Heather Sagar managed to get that nonsense published you sure as heck ought to be able to...
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unabonger
Sep 11, 2003, 2:09 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, he talked to some publishers and got the typical response of "sure, send us a rough draft and we will see if we are interested." Which is what we expected, but nobody wants to put the hours of time into putting it all together if nobody is going to be interested... I guess it would just have to be a "lobor of love" thingy.
What did you want the publisher to do? Write you a check based on your good word? Jesus you have to take them something. I can write a rough draft in one weekend. "Lobor of love" indeed.
The perturbed UnaBonger
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wc
Sep 11, 2003, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: What did you want the publisher to do? Write you a check based on your good word? Jesus you have to take them something. I can write a rough draft in one weekend. "Lobor of love" indeed.
I don't like your tone boy! And stop taking my name in vain for Christ's sake.
I'm very proud of you for being able to write a rough draft in a weekend, your home room teacher must be very proud. However, when you have to compile 4 years of SOMEONE ELSE'S writings, put them in a cohesive package, track down references, and communicate with people who live 10 hours away it is a little more than a weekend project for most. I realize they need something before they will pay, or agree to pay, anything, and he wasn't looking for any kind of payment... I'm not as stupid as you seem. I assume they would give a dip knob like you the same "sure, send us a rough draft and we will see if we are interested" response for your weekend homework assignment as they would a serious, scientifically based publication.
Which brings us to this forum, where I was trying to get input on whether there was any interest in such a book... not input on how quickly you can spew out a load of crap from you arse!
In the famous words of so many... STFU wanker...
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bandycoot
Sep 11, 2003, 6:37 PM
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Look at the book "training for climbing" That sells. Of course there is a market! There are many books on training that are successful. Good luck!
Josh
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mother_sheep
Sep 11, 2003, 7:23 PM
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So if your scientific training program really works and if you've got some cash saved up, you could always publish it yourself. Lots and lots of work involved though. I'm trying to self publish a book right now. You have to set up an LLc, purchase ISBN numbers, find a layout person, artist (you may not need this but I do for my book), then there are production and marketing issues that you have to weed through. This is your first step towards something though. Market research. But yes, if there was a training program out there that I was convinced could work for me, heck yeah I'd drop some cash.
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gblauer
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Sep 11, 2003, 7:31 PM
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I hate to say it, but like most things you really have to put the work in...in order to get the payoff. Sorry.
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collegekid
Sep 11, 2003, 7:36 PM
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yes, you could easily sell your book (so long as what you say is true).
If you need proof that there is a market for your book, just go into the technique and training forum...every other thread seems to be about "how to get stronger."
I may even be interested in purchasing this book, depending on the price...otherwise i'd probably just look it over when i'm in rei or sport chalet.
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unabonger
Sep 11, 2003, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: Which brings us to this forum, where I was trying to get input on whether there was any interest in such a book... not input on how quickly you can spew out a load of crap from you arse! In the famous words of so many... STFU wanker...
Well, ok. I think there is plenty of room on the market for a good training book. But why yours?
Check the sales statistics on the ones that are out there: From Bobby Bensmans bouldering book to John Gregory's training book to Steve Ilg to Goddard to Horst to Clyde Soles Which ones are selling and why? What can your book offer that isn't already out there?
Personally my standard for up to date training info is Horst's newest. Plenty of scientific reference and comprehensive discussion of every aspect of training for climbing. Can you beat it?
Now for more ass spew: Even if you can offer something that's not out there, you have to convince us to buy it. And we're not going to pay much. Horsts book is selling from maybe 12 dollars on Amazon. So you're probably going to do it for nothing even if there's interest. And just who is your friend? Who are you? Why should we trust that you know what the f you're talking about? Your word? Have you published before? Mag articles? Not only can I write a rough draft in a weekend, I can read it in 20 minutes at the bookstore. That's the reality.
If this gets done, it will get done because someone has the desire to DO IT, not because they wanted to make a living off it. Sorry, but that's the way writing is for most people that do it, an imperative.
The speedreading UnaBonger
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: Check the sales statistics on the ones that are out there: From Bobby Bensmans bouldering book to John Gregory's training book to Steve Ilg to Goddard to Horst to Clyde Soles Which ones are selling and why? What can your book offer that isn't already out there?
How many of them are practicing Physical Therapists, that also climb v11, and have been nothing short of obsessed about getting stronger for the last 5 years?
I don't know if it can beat Horst's book, I haven't put the time into reading Horst's book, but I know people who have technical problems with some of his ideas. I know that all 5 people I am aware of who have tried this program have nothing but good things to say about it and notice positive results within 2 weeks of starting.
In reply to: So you're probably going to do it for nothing even if there's interest.
I'm cool with that, as long as people are interested and gain something from my effort. I don't need to get rich off this, I am perfectly happy with my income, it allows me to travel for 3-6 months a year, why would I need more $$$? I just don't want to waste my time.
In reply to: And just who is your friend?
A brilliant Physical Therapist and visionary philosopher with an unfathomable understanding of the underlying essence of the universe.
Just some wanker.
In reply to: Why should we trust that you know what the f you're talking about?
Why shouldn't you? Do you have trust issues? Perhaps you should seek therapy. A wonderful world of opportunity awaits those who are open to sharing and seeking knowledge.
In reply to: Have you published before?
Yup, Christensen, W., Roselle, G. T., Bowman, J. R., (2002) HIGH TEMPERATURE (> 600 o C) DEVELOPMENT OF FRACTURE PERMEABILITY IN THE ALTA, UTAH STOCK: CONSTRAINTS FROM THERMAL AND ISOTOPIC EVIDENCE PRESERVED IN THE CONTACT AUREOLE, GSA Abstracts and Program, Paper No. 189-12.
Note the first author... yup WC, that's me.
And another on the way...
In reply to: Mag articles?
Nope, haven't tried. Never found much interest in that. Seems like a waste of time really. Have you read some of the chit they print?
In reply to: Not only can I write a rough draft in a weekend, I can read it in 20 minutes at the bookstore. That's the reality.
Your mommy must be very proud. Good for you.
In reply to: If this gets done, it will get done because someone has the desire to DO IT, not because they wanted to make a living off it.
I don't remember ever saying anyone wanted to make a living at it. You really need to chill the fock out and stop making ASSumption big guy. I appreciate your input, you have some legit points. I was just trying to find out if there was any interest before I tried to put it in a form that other people could use. Why waste my time reformatting the whole thing if nobody is interested? I understand it pretty well and can clarify any questions I might have pretty easily thanks to the benevolent omniscients of my friend, I was just seeing if anyone else would be interested. Obviously you aren't so just STFU KNOB.
In reply to: Sorry, but that's the way writing is for most people that do it, an imperative.
No need to be sorry for that, you have plenty of other problems you should be sorry about.
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crackaddict
Sep 12, 2003, 12:11 AM
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I would say that there is a market for it have you ever been to Planet Fear .com
All kinds of coaching and training going on here.
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solid
Sep 12, 2003, 12:21 AM
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I would say you haven't presented anything worthy of a second thought. In fact, you haven't. Claiming a revolution is occuring does not cause the coup.
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jt512
Sep 12, 2003, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: Check the sales statistics on the ones that are out there: From Bobby Bensmans bouldering book to John Gregory's training book to Steve Ilg to Goddard to Horst to Clyde Soles Which ones are selling and why? What can your book offer that isn't already out there?
A specific training program, from the sound of it.
In reply to: Personally my standard for up to date training info is Horst's newest. Plenty of scientific reference and comprehensive discussion of every aspect of training for climbing. Can you beat it?
I don't know if he can "beat" it, but it sounds like he might be able to complement it. Horst's book gives a lot of general priniciples of training and a slew of exercises to choose from, but it is very general; you have to determine which exercises are best for you and design your own triainging program, which is no easy task. Horst has already covered the general training principles, which, presumably, wc's PT friend's program is in accord with. It seems that what would differentiate this book from Horst's is the application of those principles to the development of a specific training program for bouldering. Sounds good to me. Can he come up with something for sport climbing?
-Jay
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micahmcguire
Sep 12, 2003, 2:38 AM
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I'm sorry, but bouldering training? what is there to train except your strength and technique? those things evolve, they grow with familiarity. teaching someone the technical aspects of roped climbing can take a bit, but aside from a couple quickie pointers the only thing that will make a boulderer increase his or her level of skill is simply to do alot of bouldering. that is why I would probably have to seriously pick fun at anyone with a "how to boulder" book. they'd take it in the shorts
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unabonger
Sep 12, 2003, 2:14 PM
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In reply to: How many of them are practicing Physical Therapists, that also climb v11, and have been nothing short of obsessed about getting stronger for the last 5 years?
You're buddy might have a good program, but that's not that impressive of a resume. V11? 5yrs? Physical Therapy? So what? I've been obsessed for almost 20 years. Can he describe the krebs cycle or what an aerobic threshold is?
In reply to: A brilliant Physical Therapist and visionary philosopher with an unfathomable understanding of the underlying essence of the universe.
Great. Sounds like you've got a great start on a cult that worships rehabilitation. What's that have to do with his credentials in climbing training?
In reply to: unabonger wrote: Why should we trust that you know what the f you're talking about? Why shouldn't you? Do you have trust issues? Perhaps you should seek therapy. A wonderful world of opportunity awaits those who are open to sharing and seeking knowledge.
My trust problems are none of your business. The relevant issue is why would we think you're book is anything better than what's out there? Because he's a physical therapist and has been getting strong for 5 whole years?
In reply to: Note the first author... yup WC, that's me.
Well congratulations. You're clearly an important and powerful force in the area of fracture analysis. But you've done NOTHING to establish credibility in the climbing community at large. You're little cult notwithstanding, people will only give it more than a glance if you can establish that you have some authoritative knowledge in the industry that's relavant. In the meantime, I'll be sure to refer my hundreds of friends to your fascinating treatise on isotopic evidence....when they need to fall asleep.
You want an example of someone who actually has knowledge that did a book that hasn't sold? Look up "Sagar" on Amazon.
In reply to: Nope, haven't tried. Never found much interest in that. Seems like a waste of time really. Have you read some of the chit they print?
Well of course they print sh*t. You're so hip to state that. But you're also missing the point. Its a proving ground with an audience that can review it and judge it and decide if the author has a clue.
In reply to: I don't remember ever saying anyone wanted to make a living at it.
Yeah, we see. You've bragged about your income already. You're a huge fish in the pond. But you said in your first post you didn't want to do all that work for nothing. So what do you expect to do it for?
The quotefest UnaBonger
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unabonger
Sep 12, 2003, 2:42 PM
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JT512, you should write it. You seem to have a better grasp on what he can offer than he does!
The curious UnaBonger
Yeah, I already feel like I wrote the introduction to his book for him!
-Jay
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 3:08 PM
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Unabonger,
You have some serious aggression problems. When is the last time you hugged your father? Look into it, it might help you deal with your problems. Who knows, maybe you will even be able to make friends someday... and you won't have to pull the bong solo.
Somehow you got the misguided notion that your "whimsical, sarcastic, outlandish, fanciful, boorish, insulting" comments are somehow funny and interesting to others. My guess is most people find them as stupid, unhelpful, unworthy, and unimaginative as I do.
good luck in everything, you obviously need it.
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reborne
Sep 12, 2003, 3:12 PM
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just publish it yourself like alot of people are doing with guide books now adays its a bigger risk but if you can sell it you get alot more money ... even if you write it send it to publishers and noone wants it you can always fall back on sending it out to a printer yourself .... but talk to chockstone
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: what is there to train except your strength and technique? those things evolve, they grow with familiarity. that is why I would probably have to seriously pick fun at anyone with a "how to boulder" book. they'd take it in the shorts
That is interesting you feel that way. I suggest you read some books about strength training if you want to learn the truth! Do you think Olympic power lifters simply lift the heaviest things they can whenever they train, and the strength and technique just evolves?
One if the biggest misconception in climbing training is that climbing hard is the best training for climbing hard. :roll:
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wyomingclimber
Sep 12, 2003, 4:22 PM
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You should definitely pick up Horst's Training for Climbing and Neumann's Performance Rock Climbing. You might be surprised at how good they are. Also, both authors are fairly qualified, particularly Neumann, who I believe holds a Masters in exercise physiology from one of the top schools in the world.
While Horst's book is much more practical (vs theoretical) than Neumann's, I think both authors shy away from outlining exact training programs because of the significant problem of different people reacting to training differently. It's hard to put together a single program that would be perfect for both me and Chris Sharma (though certainly the same basic principles would apply.)
And I'm going to disagree with your spirited opponent on the Heather Sagar issue. I wouldn't bother with her book when you're doing your research. It didn't sell well for good reason.
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fredrogers
Sep 12, 2003, 4:36 PM
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wc, yes I think there is a market for your potential book. But you are going to have to work on being "marketable". You'll probably need to get some recognizable climbing personalities to vouch for your program. It sounds like it will be a lot of work to organize your materials and then present them in an easy-to-understand format. Good luck. If you find that it's too difficult to write and publish a book than perhaps you can present the material in articles for Climbing or Rock and Ice. The articles they usually offer on training are extremely broad, unuseful, and written by people with little to no knowledge of training. You could always post them here for free. Why don't you give us some teasers of what your program is like?
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unabonger
Sep 12, 2003, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: Unabonger, You have some serious aggression problems. good luck in everything, you obviously need it.
You might know isotopic frissurious geo evidentiary rules but you've done nothing to show us what you're credentials are to write a training book. I've offered serious criticism that you seem unable to respond to except with unimaginative slams at my psychology. All of which might be valid, but you still haven't shown us why anyone would be interested in your book. Learn to seperate the meat from the troll and respond accordingly.
A specific training program might be good, but we all live very different lives, for example, you probably live in a cage. So we have different scheduling and climbing needs even within the bouldering subspecialty. So c'mon. Why not rough it out here, and we can offer you criticism. Once its been tempered in this fire, or rec.climbing, then take it worldwide.
Or can't you take the heat?
The aggressive UnaBonger
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dingus
Sep 12, 2003, 5:07 PM
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No, I would not pay. There is too much free info readily available. Sorry.
DMT
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