|
deleted
Deleted
Oct 28, 2003, 3:55 AM
Post #26 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
thanks.
but don't believe everything you read on the internet. get out there yourself! :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Oct 28, 2003, 4:00 AM
Post #27 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: DUDE! Do not for a minute consider the trolls above to be legit! You should never believe the advice you read in an internet forum! Trad climbing is dangerous and all that fancy-shmancy gear they sell in climbing shops does NOT hold falls! If you fall on trad gear it will not hold. Please - stay in the gym, or at the very least, only clip bolts. Climb safely. Sheesh. pete it sounds like you need to take some trad lessons from someone who knows how to place gear! As for the guy who posted the original question, trad gear will hold as long as it was placed correctly, the only way to learn is to second someone who knows the gig. Pete wouldnt be a good choice. I have fallen on alot of gear, some short, some whippers, and iv'e never had a peice rip (knock wood) I also had a partner forget to "lower out" on a pendulum and swing like tarzan on a yellow metolious and it actualy walked itself deeper(uphill!) into the crack, go figure. :lol:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Oct 28, 2003, 4:02 AM
Post #28 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
When I was a fairly new climber (wait... I'm still fairly new, having been at this for 4 years now...) I had a real problem trusting small gear. At the time, anything less than a #3 Camalot or a 3.5 Tri-Cam or a #11 BD Stopper was considered "small." In my misguided opinion, I held to the masculine mantra: Bigger is better.
Then I went climbing at Tallulah Gorge, Georgia. Took a 20 footer on a 0.5 WC Friend. I held. I nearly shat my trousers.
The very next day, I went to the climbing shop in Atlanta and bought my own 0.5 WC Friend. Somewhere between "Oh, $h!t" and reaching the ground after being lowered, I realized what every trad climber must learn at some point: It's not the size of the gear that matters, it's how well it is placed.
|
|
|
|
|
deleted
Deleted
Oct 28, 2003, 4:04 AM
Post #29 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
[quote:833b3253b3="reno"]It's not the size of the gear that matters, it's how well it is placed.[/quote:833b3253b3]
[i:833b3253b3]jeezus[/i:833b3253b3], reno ... if i had a dollar for every time a woman has said that to me! :lol: :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
hema
Oct 28, 2003, 4:13 AM
Post #30 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 251
|
A couple of friends were climbing in Krabi a few years ago, one fell (on the fourth bolt if I remember correctly) and the bolthanger snapped resulting on a longer fall to the bolt below and some really sore ankles.
As for firsthand experience I fell on a number four nut and it held. So no probs there, the only thing that got me scared was the first peace and it was placed just about 2m above gournd and my foot were already above the peace when I fell. To make things a bit more interesting I was climbing with double-ropes and the free rope got stuck on my feet, as I was trying to get it out behind my feet I was at quite a dodgy place and my hands slipped resulting in a fall. After the fall my head was about half a meter above the ground and my feet were pointing towards the sky.
Luckily I put the peace in as the routes crux (Eriois-A, Olhava, Finland, about 5.9) is the start, 'cause without it I might have some serious neck problems and a hell of a headache.
|
|
|
|
|
chillenfish
Oct 28, 2003, 4:16 AM
Post #31 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 48
|
I read a lot of these that state that trad gear is "great if placed right"...What i was wondering was where do you learn to place gear in the right spot and knowing what you could make fit.
|
|
|
|
|
deleted
Deleted
Oct 28, 2003, 4:18 AM
Post #32 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
it's an acquired skill. practice, practice, practice.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Oct 28, 2003, 4:18 AM
Post #33 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: but to say sport routes are safer than their trad counterparts is way off. not only do bolts fail for a variety of reasons -- including jt512's anecdote about both bolts failing in a two-bolt anchor...
Going to have to disagree with this. A good sport route with 3/8 inch and 1/2 inch bolts like one typically sees in new sport areas is most certainly less dangerous than any trad route of similar difficulty in general.
As has been demonstrated in two instances recently, even what appears to be a good trad anchor of three to four pieces of gear can in some circumstances fail in extreme falls (F2). Also, those of you who trad climb, tell me how many nuts you saw work themselves loose just in the last month? Ever see a bolt do that, even a manky, crummy one? Doubtful. The horrendous bolt failure accidents are generally limited to sea cliffs where stress corrosion cracking destroyed them very quickly, or they were manky 1/4 inch trash like in Yosemite where more than one person has taken the ride due to those popping. As for Jay's anecdote, I hadn't read that one yet.
Yes, always inspect your pro, be it a bolt or your own hand placed trad gear. But no way are the risks in trad climbing the same as in sport climbing. The data does not support that.
|
|
|
|
|
okcdirtbag
Oct 28, 2003, 4:19 AM
Post #34 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2003
Posts: 65
|
no, my last piece did hold. MY belayer just had to take up a TON of slack to due to the pieces above it pulling out.
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Oct 28, 2003, 4:19 AM
Post #35 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
In reply to: In reply to: It's not the size of the gear that matters, it's how well it is placed. , reno ... if i had a dollar for every time a woman has said that to me!
If you had a dollar for everytime a woman has said that to you, then what? You still wouldn't have enough to buy admittance to the weekday matinee...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Oct 28, 2003, 4:26 AM
Post #36 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
In reply to: In reply to: but to say sport routes are safer than their trad counterparts is way off. not only do bolts fail for a variety of reasons -- including jt512's anecdote about both bolts failing in a two-bolt anchor... Going to have to disagree with this. A good sport route with 3/8 inch and 1/2 inch bolts like one typically sees in new sport areas is most certainly less dangerous than any trad route of similar difficulty in general. As has been demonstrated in two instances recently, even what appears to be a good trad anchor of three to four pieces of gear can in some circumstances fail in extreme falls (F2). Also, those of you who trad climb, tell me how many nuts you saw work themselves loose just in the last month? Ever see a bolt do that, even a manky, crummy one?
And I'll disagree with this (even though you and I spent Saturday clipping bolts!)
When placing gear, one has no choice but to inspect said gear for adequate placement. It's part of the chess game that is Trad Climbing.
Bolts, though, are so frequently taken for granted by many climbers (Tim, do you think the highschool kids we saw at Clear Creek *really* inspected the bolts they were clipping?) Hence, the reliability of the bolt is questionable if the climber did not place the bolt. Not so with gear. If I place it, I'm pretty damn sure it will hold. If I am not so sure, I switch it for a different piece.
True, bolts have gotten better. Better materials, better placements (experience is a great teacher, eh?) and better self-policing of bolts by other climbers (American Safe Climbing Association, for example.) But no bolt is 100% safe. And unless the climber knows how to inspect a bolt for patency, it is no safer than a micro-nut placed in a flaring parallel crack.
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Oct 28, 2003, 4:30 AM
Post #37 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
In reply to: thanks. but don't believe everything you read on the internet. get out there yourself! :wink:
No I don't believe anyone...but I can usually tell who is talking BS and will discount them right away. The rest of you out there I'll listen with great precaution.
So check out this ground fall and tell me if you were this guy and if you had a bolt next to that placement would you clip it the next try instead of pro. I would.
http://www.chockstone.org/.../tower_fall_big.mpeg
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Oct 28, 2003, 4:52 AM
Post #38 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: And I'll disagree with this (even though you and I spent Saturday clipping bolts!)
Let's move beyond the hypothetical to actual data then, since all we are doing here is stating opinions. I don't have the last ten years of the American Alpine accident report issues, but I will bet you a six pack that there are ten accidents involving trad gear that pulled for every broken bolt accident in there. Not including other errors like belaying, rockfall, or missed clips, no gear in before the fall, I challenge you to produce one broken bolt accident for every five of these trad accidents even.
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Oct 28, 2003, 5:02 AM
Post #39 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
In reply to: In reply to: And I'll disagree with this (even though you and I spent Saturday clipping bolts!) Let's move beyond the hypothetical to actual data then, since all we are doing here is stating opinions. I don't have the last ten years of the American Alpine accident report issues, but I will bet you a six pack that there are ten accidents involving trad gear that pulled for every broken bolt accident in there.
You think maybe that's cause there are more people climbing dangerous trad routes (alpine, big walls, etc.) than heavy traffic bolt lines?
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Oct 28, 2003, 5:06 AM
Post #40 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: And I'll disagree with this (even though you and I spent Saturday clipping bolts!) Let's move beyond the hypothetical to actual data then, since all we are doing here is stating opinions. I don't have the last ten years of the American Alpine accident report issues, but I will bet you a six pack that there are ten accidents involving trad gear that pulled for every broken bolt accident in there. You think maybe that's cause there are more people climbing dangerous trad routes (alpine, big walls, etc.) than heavy traffic bolt lines?
So you think sport climbing accidents are underreported then? Then we'll just go by each of our personal memories of local sport areas. In the six years I was climbing in Austin, there were exactly zero sport climbing accidents due to bolt failure. I knew of two trad accidents where gear pulled, and each of those climbers were experienced.
Your turn.
|
|
|
|
|
dalguard
Oct 28, 2003, 11:06 AM
Post #41 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2003
Posts: 239
|
Sport climbing is clearly safer than trad climbing and indoor gym climbing is even safer than that but ice climbing and high altitude mountaineering are less safe than trad climbing. The jury's kind of out on aid climbing but it probably goes in between sport and trad.
White water kayaking beats them all except the high altitude mountaineeirng and mountain biking is somewhere around ice climbing.
So, um, what was the point exactly?
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Oct 28, 2003, 1:25 PM
Post #42 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: Sport climbing is clearly safer than trad climbing and indoor gym climbing is even safer than that but ice climbing and high altitude mountaineering are less safe than trad climbing. The jury's kind of out on aid climbing but it probably goes in between sport and trad. White water kayaking beats them all except the high altitude mountaineeirng and mountain biking is somewhere around ice climbing. So, um, what was the point exactly?
Your order of risk for these sports I totally concur with, as would Walt Shipley too no doubt since he succumbed to white water perils yet was unscathed even by free soloing with a sewing machine leg. There is no single point, but trad is definitely more dangerous than sport in so far as the pro is concerned. Or it sure as hell should be. If a sport area has cruddy bolts that are popping out on everyone, then that area is an abberation that needs correcting. There is no long lasting way to correct a trad placement that will be subsequently cleaned by the second. Each time you place gear the scenario is different.
On the other hand, it is also clearly true that an experienced, conservative trad leader can have fewer close calls than a careless, overconfident sport climber. But missing clips and decking (usually sin helmet in sport), rappelling errors, and belaying snafus are going to catch the sporto. The bolts will nab only those on the leading edge of the bell curve.
|
|
|
|
|
holmeslovesguinness
Oct 28, 2003, 2:50 PM
Post #43 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 548
|
My question then is this - what are the most common causes of injury while rock climbing? My impression is that rappelling and lowering 'user error' type screw ups are probably at the top of the list, but is anyone familiar with the actual statistics from say the last 10 years?
|
|
|
|
|
deleted
Deleted
Oct 28, 2003, 3:40 PM
Post #44 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
i certainly didn't intend to imply sport climbing is more dangerous than trad. in fact -- all factors being equal -- i would say it is [i:46cb5f548b]safer[/i:46cb5f548b] than trad. my point was that, however infrequently, bolts do fail. and should not, as a matter of course, be held in such high regard.
climbs_plastic -- as for the groundfall video, yeah, the piece pulled ... it happens all the time in trad climbing. part of the allure of trad is that you and your partner are responsible for your own safety. and the ante is even higher when it's [i:46cb5f548b]you[/i:46cb5f548b] on the sharp end. some people (myself included) enjoy the uncertainty, the fear, the primal terror that tries to fill our heads and get us to back off. but more than that, it is the acquired ability to calm those feelings down and harness them into a focused energy to get the job done -- i call it "handling the buzz" -- that is the [b:46cb5f548b]real[/b:46cb5f548b] drug.
back to the video: i haven't any data as to the climber's ability or physical state, the grade of the route, the weather conditions at the time, and many other variables that would allow me to comment further. i [i:46cb5f548b]can[/i:46cb5f548b] say that it appeared he only had that one piece in, so he was taking a chance. he was also climbing without a helmet -- never a good idea in [i:46cb5f548b]my[/i:46cb5f548b] book.
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Oct 28, 2003, 4:38 PM
Post #45 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
ho hum ...
i still fail to see what the point of this thread is ..
.. are you guys trying to decide what is more dangerous? -- sounds like alot of the sounding off about how dangerous trad is came from people who have limited experience ..
.. trad is dangerous .. climbing is dangerous .. alot of stuff can go wrong when you get out there .. so practice, pay attention and be safe.
to the guy who asked how you can determine what a good placement is .. the only way to learn is to get on the sharp end and do it .. (so dont get out on your limit at first!) .. and have someone with more experience give you feedback on your placement ... aid climbing is also a great way to get inmediate feedback ..
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Oct 28, 2003, 4:46 PM
Post #46 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: ho hum ... i still fail to see what the point of this thread is ...
Look reealllly close. See it now? No look over there. There's some more over there...wait missed a spot.
Get it now?
It's a conversation like any other thread. It goes here, there, and back to somewhere else. You want the Essay Forum? Or maybe the question is posed to the original thread author?
And yeah, I too find that aid is a great way to get immediate feedback on your pro placements. Fun stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
ksolem
Oct 29, 2003, 1:14 AM
Post #47 of 47
(8499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 126
|
In reply to: In reply to: thanks. but don't believe everything you read on the internet. get out there yourself! :wink: No I don't believe anyone...but I can usually tell who is talking BS and will discount them right away. The rest of you out there I'll listen with great precaution. So check out this ground fall and tell me if you were this guy and if you had a bolt next to that placement would you clip it the next try instead of pro. I would. http://www.chockstone.org/.../tower_fall_big.mpeg
It's a bit tough to see in the video what's available, but I'd be looking for more than one piece in a spot like that. If there's good gear available a bolt is lame.
When I'm about to embark on a cruxy section on a trad climb, I sometimes like to place a couple of pieces close together. The extra security frees me to climb through the next section with commitment. A common cause of failure on trad leads is when the climber gets nervous and trys to fidget in some gear halfway through a hard sequence. Make it safe, then commit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
