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xanx
Nov 3, 2003, 5:18 AM
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first off, it is my understanding that The Fly can't be protected with trad gear, at least until we find some way to affix gear to a blank wall.
If Jason (who put up the 55 ft high Evilution) and Sharma felt they needed a rope on The Fly, then the landing is probably crippling. no one sane is going to say that they don't have the balls to do something sans rope if it is possible.
Dave Graham put up the Fly. Looking at some of the other stuff he has put up, and having talked with him, he seems to grade things pretty stiff. He gave the Buttermilker a V12, got upgraded to V13. Spectre from V13 to V14. I was talking to him and he says Emotional Landscapes is like V14 (Klem thinks it is V15) and Bungelestein (sp?) is like V13 (again, i think Klem gave it V14). Tony Lamiche said The Fly was like V14, which easily equates to 5.14d without a doubt. So stop huffing about the grade just cause Sharma did it quickly. The man has flahsed V13 for God's sake!
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pbjosh
Nov 3, 2003, 5:45 AM
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In reply to: Dave Graham put up the Fly. Looking at some of the other stuff he has put up, and having talked with him, he seems to grade things pretty stiff. He gave the Buttermilker a V12, got upgraded to V13. Spectre from V13 to V14. I was talking to him and he says Emotional Landscapes is like V14 (Klem thinks it is V15) and Bungelestein (sp?) is like V13 (again, i think Klem gave it V14). Tony Lamiche said The Fly was like V14, which easily equates to 5.14d without a doubt. So stop huffing about the grade just cause Sharma did it quickly. The man has flahsed V13 for God's sake!
Dave Graham has also had a route he rated .14c/d downrated to .13d and a boulder problem he rated V12 downrated to V9. Shows you how much stock to put in any grades, particularly harder things that have had fewer ascents. And remember that different climbs truly will be easier or harder for different folks.
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thinksinpictures
Nov 3, 2003, 5:54 AM
Post #53 of 88
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Whew. It's a good thing that Sharma, Graham, Kehl, Lamiche et al have people here at rc.com to defend their honor against detractors. Where would they be without us?
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thinksinpictures
Nov 3, 2003, 6:00 AM
Post #54 of 88
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In reply to: Whew. It's a good thing that Sharma, Graham, Kehl, Lamiche et al have people here at rc.com to defend their honor against detractors. Where would they be without us?
Yes, I just quoted myself.
Further thought reveals that without us these hardmen would quite probably be working sh--ty jobs like the rest of us and climbing on weekends, since every time one of us buys a subscription to Climbing or Rock & Ice, or shells out for Anasazis, a new Bluewater rope, or the like, we are paying little bits of what passes for these climbers' respective salaries.
I actually don't know about non-American climbers here - no idea how the whole sponsorship/professional climber thing works across the seas.
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climb_plastic
Nov 3, 2003, 6:41 AM
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In reply to: Further thought reveals that without us these hardmen would quite probably be working sh--ty jobs like the rest of us and climbing on weekends, since every time one of us buys a subscription to Climbing or Rock & Ice, or shells out for Anasazis, a new Bluewater rope, or the like, we are paying little bits of what passes for these climbers' respective salaries.
You just realized that? Welcome to the world of professional sports.
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chitlinsconcarne
Nov 3, 2003, 6:53 AM
Post #56 of 88
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Careful here that you all haven't been sold a bill of goods. Who is the culprit in this larcenous transaction? I am. And so are so many of my peers..we created this whole fallacy of valid ascents and style to make ourselves feel superior to those that did things differently than we did. Natural schoolyard bullies, some of us are still pushing newbies around 20 years later.
Fact is, there isn't any validity to any style of ascent. There are bolted boulder problems, toprope problems, short sport routes, mixed trad lines and endless variations of them all. It doesn't matter. What matters is moving upwards-all of the definitions and subdivisions and recriminations are just so much bs by the weak trying to find a definition that makes them feel better for not being one of the strong.
Put it all away and just go up.
Pull like a freak.
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soretendons
Nov 3, 2003, 7:07 AM
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Last night I got a fortune cookie that basically said "only criticize if you can do better". If that were applied here...
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manacubus
Nov 3, 2003, 8:21 AM
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The other week I got a fortune cookie that said "A dish of carrot hastily cooked may still have soil uncleaned off the vegetable". If that were applied here...okay, maybe that doesn't apply here. Please ignore.
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tradman
Nov 3, 2003, 11:03 AM
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To thinksinpictures:
How does sponsorship work overseas? Well, mostly it doesn't! Take a good example: Malc Smith. Malc is a Scottish guy, superstrong boulderer. He's just sent his latest project, "The Monk Life", which goes at 8b+. So malc's a pro right? Well only just! He's just turned 30, and it's only been in the last two years that he's been able to live off climbing. Before that he was a rope access worker.
But actually this has a good side. It looks like a lot of folks here really hero-worship Chris Sharma to the point that they seem prepared to tolerate style from him that they'd openly mock anyone else for. Hence this "toproped flash". Does anyone hero-worship Malc Smith? Not really, because although he's crazy strong, european champion and so on, he's not some distant "rock god", travelling the world sending big numbers - I've seen him at my local wall in Edinburgh (which is definitely non-elite!) with his lady loads of times, and I have to say he seems like a really cool, laid-back guy.
When there's money and fame involved, I think maybe ethics and style have been messed up and distorted. What do you think?
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thinksinpictures
Nov 3, 2003, 2:40 PM
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In reply to: You just realized that?
No, I'm quite familiar with how sponsporship works. Not quite as familiar as I might like, though. :twisted:
What happened was this: it took me a second to connect the rhetorical question ("where would they be without us?") asked in my first post (intended to poke fun at the fact that a bunch of mere mortals are sitting around debating the various "styles" used by climbing gods on a particular route that probably no one on this site has any hope of sending) with the literal answer, which is of course, "they would be nowhere, because we pay them to do what they do."
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karlbaba
Nov 3, 2003, 3:42 PM
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Top Yura-peon climbers make way, way more money than US climbers. Some climbers are household names in France.
As for folks like Sharma, there is hardly a sport, hobby or art on the face of the earth where a guy with his talent wouldn't make way more.
It's hard to imagine anyone who has pandered less to publicity while doing what need to be done to do what he loves than Chris. It just goes to show that you're danged if you do and if you don't. People like to take shots at the big guys.
I agree with the folks who said "look, they guy is out, fooling around working a wicked hard route and happens to send. Gee Whiz, of course word gets around and now he's being grilled. I doubt he would argue that it wouldn't have been a bit harder to clip the second bolt, but nobody tried to hide that.
We don't "pay" these elite climbers enough to expect them to take this shist
Peace
Karl
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clmbng_addict
Nov 3, 2003, 3:46 PM
Post #62 of 88
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One time i got a fortune cookie that said "you have bright blue eyes." I'm not sure i see how that's a fortune. And my eyes are brown.
Oh yeah, Chris Sharma, The Fly, blah blah blah.....who really cares? Pretty damn amazing however he did it, and personally i couldn't care less how he or anyone else did it b/c it's phenomenal either way and doesn't affect me in the slightest. Time to turn off the comp and go climbing, or at least find something more meaningful to bicker about, like world hunger. peace
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jipstyle
Nov 4, 2003, 6:39 PM
Post #63 of 88
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I agree with Karl ... actually, here is an editorial piece that sums up how I feel about 8a.nu's article (which is the problem, not Chris' send)
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climb_plastic
Nov 5, 2003, 2:49 AM
Post #65 of 88
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In reply to: I agree with Karl ... actually, here is an editorial piece that sums up how I feel about 8a.nu's article (which is the problem, not Chris' send)
He almost did flash it on his first try though. He fell on the last move and the next time he got there he pulled it. So it was close.
Question I have is: are they still calling it a 5.14d if it's top roped or free solo'd or is the rating of the climb lower when you don't have to lead it? ie. rate it 5.14d as a lead exactly the way Dave Graham did it but only 5.14c TR or solo.
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thinksinpictures
Nov 5, 2003, 7:00 PM
Post #66 of 88
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In reply to: Question I have is: are they still calling it a 5.14d if it's top roped or free solo'd or is the rating of the climb lower when you don't have to lead it? ie. rate it 5.14d as a lead exactly the way Dave Graham did it but only 5.14c TR or solo.
No way. You don't change the rating on a climb because of the style it was done it, you just take the difficulty of a particular style into consideration when considering how great an accomplishment it is. For example, if I lead the Fly and you toprope it, then I led .14d and you toproped .14d. Same rating, different meaning: The difficulty for me was absolutelyridiculouscrazyunbelievablehard, whereas for you it was merely superfantasticamazinglyinsanehard, which everyone knows is WAY less impressive.
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bandycoot
Nov 5, 2003, 7:24 PM
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joshy8200 wrote:
In reply to: Let's be real. Do you brag about your greatest top rope ascent?
Just because he's good doesn't mean you should criticize him for climbing a climb a certain way and STAYING SAFE. The guy is an inspiration and anyone who sees him differentlly is jealous. And just to get things into perspective, do you really think he bragged? Or did some climbing reporter report that he did the climb. I highly doubt that he went out of his way to inform the public about his climb. He's there to climb, not climb in the way you THINK he should.
Josh
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vertical_reality
Nov 5, 2003, 7:43 PM
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Joshy, unless you always clip below your waist, you toprope every climb you do too.
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aznrockclimber82
Nov 5, 2003, 8:03 PM
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I don't think he is neccessarily ashamed of that fact...might have been part of his point.....
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cliffhunger
Nov 5, 2003, 8:19 PM
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First, please take it that The Fly's landing IS crippling.
It looks nice from videos and pictures, because underneath it it is all sandy and smooth, but you haven't seen where you will fall.
It is a good 30 degrees overhung, and you start standing on a 2-feet high rock.
Should you fall, you will fall behind said rock (if not your with face on it), and behind it are... more rocks, but not of the nice, flat, caring for your pretty face type. It's more or less a jagged talus.
Next, being a practical climber, you should get on the route and try to evaluate where in the route you will fall.
It will rapidly occur to you that you will fall trying to stick the first move, and in a very uncontrollable way.
The move is: pulling up on nasty crimpers, pushing with one lousy foothold that is situated far back.
When you actually launch for the next hold, picture yourself being cought in a tornado and trying to stick the lousiest hold ever.
You can slap it a million times and not even feel that it will stick the least bit.
The move is very hard to control. This is where most attempts fail.
A fall from this move sends you way back, tumbling and twirling.
(you at least twist an ankle IMHO).
Then, should you stick it, you get into an even more compromising situation, getting your feet up on the starting holds and crossing over to a decent sidepull/pinch. That move is equally hard and stumps most attempts that have made it past the first move.
A fall from there cripples you badly (you'd fall like face first on the boulders below).
Then you reach for a decent spike hold (dynamically) and can fall there also for a nice crippling outcome.
Finally, the 2 next moves are delicate, but easier, and end up on a big sloper where you can clip.
The fall from the clip position is safe, but it is not if you fall with some slack.
Sharma had 2 hours to kill, walked up to it, and decided to try it for fun.
He ended up doing it.
He snagged some beta from Kehl, clipped the higher bolt so he could work it properly, then almost flashed.
Then he just got back on it and sent it.
Not caring is the deal here, because, while on his flash attempt, having done the 3 first moves, he was searching for the right foot beta, he simply decided to let go after a while. I highly doubt that making history was part of his thoughts.
Anyone with the slightest selfish thoughts about being the greatest climber ever would have tried anything to finish such a flash attempt.
So, if someone like Kehl, who is perhaps the only guy with strong enough fingers and big enough balls to try it solo, says he'd rather not, you should believe him more than pictures, videos, and every little opinion on the internet.
And if people like Sharma and Lamiche don't care about one or two bolts clipped, and you know for a fact that they do not care about their image either, maybe you should revise your definition of ethics.
When you see a video of Lamiche doing it with the bolts clipped, you can hardly say that he is "saying he did it but he didn't cause he was on toprope". He says, I climbed it with the second bolt clipped.
True.
Impressive.
And that's that.
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xcire
Nov 5, 2003, 8:28 PM
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any links to a pic of the route?
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xcire
Nov 5, 2003, 8:29 PM
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nevermind im downloading the video
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jabtocrag
Nov 5, 2003, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: Actually, I think Mark's points are pretty valid. He's making more sense than most of the tools in this thread. And look at the title under his username, ferchrissakes! ;)
Oh, if we all could just live up to our "titles" :wink:
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degaine
Nov 5, 2003, 10:07 PM
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Everyone who stated that Chris Sharma and the others do not care about our opinion is certainly right. Anyone who is not impressed by Chris Sharma's effort is either extremely arrogant, or not impressed by much in life (I am impressed for what it is worth).
That said, the real disappointment is the media - whether it be a website such as 8a.nu, or Rock and Ice or Climbing. They must be really scraping the bottom of the barrel, because lately (over at least the last 5 years) the magazines have been overstating accomplishments and completely exaggerating or embellishing certain feats. Both have become "cliquey" and established a "look at me, look at me" paradigm in climbing journalism.
I would like to read real, quality reporting on climbing current events. Media integrity is at the heart of the issue. Call a spade a spade. If an article stated, "Chris Sharma top-ropes The Fly on his first try!," I would want to read on. But I am certainly disappointed to read a headline stating one thing and an article that completely states another.
Another example is Hans Florine's recent California Fourteeners effort. Very impressive. However, this site as well as the Rock and Ice website (and certainly soon to appear in the magazine) stated that he set a record time climbing all of California's peaks over 14,000 feet and have made a big deal over the issue. Well, he did not in fact climb all of the California Fourtneerers (omitting Mt. Williamson due to seasonal closure), so how can he break the record? He also used a plane to travel to Shasta, whereas the previous record holders drove. How is this comparable? I am very impressed by Hans Florine's ability and certainly am impressed by the effort, but this sensationalism B.S. is becoming too much.
I'll stop there. Just my two (okay five) cents.
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jipstyle
Nov 6, 2003, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: He almost did flash it on his first try though.
Well, he certainly couldn't have almost flashed it on his third, or fourth, or seventieth try, could he? ;)
In reply to: He fell on the last move and the next time he got there he pulled it. So it was close.
Yeah .. but the next time was his fourth try ... a fourth try success is not almost a flash. It is very impressive, and (I think) the fastest send of a .14d ... so why not report it that way? I have issues with that website in general, though ... it is just a venue for spraying.
In reply to: Question I have is: are they still calling it a 5.14d if it's top roped or free solo'd or is the rating of the climb lower when you don't have to lead it? ie. rate it 5.14d as a lead exactly the way Dave Graham did it but only 5.14c TR or solo.
A climb is rated according to its difficulty, regardless of whether you lead it or TR it. This isn't going to change anytime soon. It will, however, continue to be the subject of controversy and long flame wars. Rather than repeat them here, just do a quick search. The 'is tr'ing as hard as leading' subject comes up at least monthly on rc.com. ;)
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