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hikerken
Apr 3, 2004, 6:31 PM
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In a recent discussion in which I was a part, a poster felt that a particular person who was a AMGA certified top-rope site manager, who routinely climbs 11's, Trad climbs nearly every weekend, and who teaches climbing as a living, was not "qualified" to teach lead climbing.
That same poster also advised that it would be reasonable to find someone on this board to hook up with, and have that person teach them leading.
I find my self with exactly the opposite view....that the person in the first paragraph is very qualified, and that the "pickup" person is probably not.
Anyone who in certified by AMGA must pass a variety of tests that involve the actual process and techniques of TEACHING, not just climbing. This knowledge tends to transcend particular content.....a good teacher tends to be a good teacher, no matter what they are teaching.
However, a great technician often cannot explain what they are doing, nor how to acquire their skill, may have no patience, and may not be current in their ancillary techniques.
Additionally, the poster greatly discouraged a beginner from taking classes from clubs, as he had seen members of clubs climbing unsafely. This seems illogical to me.....as illogical as saying that because I've seen A member of rockclimbing.com climb unsafely, EVERYONE associated with Rockclimbing.com is an unsafe climber.
But it does bring up the reasonable question: How could a beginner evaluate the safety of any organized program? YMCA, Scouts, clubs, etc.
I realize the point of view that says do all one's learning from a commercial professional guide service, which is certainly not WRONG, but reality is that few will do so, even if we are unanimous in advising so.
(like we all went to professional driving schools to learn how to drive!)
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rokshoxbkr19
Apr 3, 2004, 6:51 PM
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I don't think AMGA means dick. I think it is great if you have the time and bucket loads of money to spend becoming AMGA certified, but nevertheless it certainly does not mean that those who are not certified should not and could not teach.
The guiding company I worked for over the spring and summer last year out in Zion required no previous certificatoins. However, they did require me to climb with all the guides and the owner on several occasions, they tested me and certified me by their own means and most of all made sure I was safe and competent to teach.
As was stated before, being good at something does not mean you are good at teaching that thing. I now own a guiding service, and have several certifications from companies within the region, but have no AMGA certifications. Does that mean I should not be guiding? I would have to say that the many people I have taken on trips and taught would say I should be guiding and the experienced people I climb with and have climbed with would agree. I pride myslef on being an excellent teacher and extremely good with beginners. I also pride myself on being very safety minded and placing safety at the top of my priorities when guiding, teaching and climbing in general.
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j_ung
Apr 3, 2004, 7:01 PM
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Interesting post.
Unfortunately, there is no 100% accurate method by which you can judge a guide's/mentor's proficiency. Certification, recommendations, past experience and reputation are all to some extent subjective. However, IMO, certification seems like the least subjective of them all.
That said, I've also known quite a few guides who carried no guiding certification, and who I regarded highly. One of the most respected guides in the industry carried no certification other than medical until he successfully challenged the AMGA exams without taking the courses. Granted, that's an uncommon level of proficiency.
I don't think anybody would argue that the AMGA curriculum isn't comprehensive. By hiring an AMGA-trained guide, a beginner can at least be assured that the person was put through an exhaustive course and battery of exams. But it isn't a guarantee.
I'm sorry; I know I'm just making points and then contradicting them. There's just no clear-cut answer for this.
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j_ung
Apr 3, 2004, 7:12 PM
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In reply to: I don't think AMGA means dick. I think it is great if you have the time and bucket loads of money to spend becoming AMGA certified, but nevertheless it certainly does not mean that those who are not certified should not and could not teach. The guiding company I worked for over the spring and summer last year out in Zion required no previous certificatoins. However, they did require me to climb with all the guides and the owner on several occasions, they tested me and certified me by their own means and most of all made sure I was safe and competent to teach. As was stated before, being good at something does not mean you are good at teaching that thing. I now own a guiding service, and have several certifications from companies within the region, but have no AMGA certifications. Does that mean I should not be guiding? I would have to say that the many people I have taken on trips and taught would say I should be guiding and the experienced people I climb with and have climbed with would agree. I pride myslef on being an excellent teacher and extremely good with beginners. I also pride myself on being very safety minded and placing safety at the top of my priorities when guiding, teaching and climbing in general.
Valid points. There many such guiding services that are entirely competent and hold few, if any certs. The only point to the contrary that I'll make is this. If I'm a beginner who knows nothing about the sport and I'm trying to decide between two firms, one with certification and one without, I'm likely to pick the one with. Granted, even that point has nothing to do with actual safety. The uncertified outfit could very well be the better of the two, and I may have made a bad choice.
How am I, as a new client, to know the difference? A good guide understands this elelment of uncertainty on the parts of new clients, as I'm sure rokshoxbkr19 does.
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keinangst
Apr 3, 2004, 7:15 PM
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The best certification? Nothing fancy. Ask around the area--generally, climbers in a given community can vouch for the skill and/or safety of a particular teacher. Reputation transcends certification, and that goes for any industry, profession, or hobby.
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curt
Apr 3, 2004, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: In a recent discussion in which I was a part, jt512 felt that a particular person who was a AMGA certified top-rope site manager, who routinely climbs 11's, Trad climbs nearly every weekend, and who teaches climbing as a living, was not "qualified" to teach lead climbing. jt512 also advised that it would be reasonable to find someone on this board to hook up with, and have that person teach them leading. I find my self with exactly the opposite view....that the person in the first paragraph is very qualified, and that the "pickup" person is probably not. Anyone who in certified by AMGA must pass a variety of tests that involve the actual process and techniques of TEACHING, not just climbing. This knowledge tends to transcend particular content.....a good teacher tends to be a good teacher, no matter what they are teaching. However, a great technician often cannot explain what they are doing, nor how to acquire their skill, may have no patience, and may not be current in their ancillary techniques. Additionally, jt512 greatly discouraged a beginner from taking classes from clubs, as he had seen members of clubs climbing unsafely. This seems illogical to me.....as illogical as saying that because I've seen A member of rockclimbing.com climb unsafely, EVERYONE associated with Rockclimbing.com is an unsafe climber. But it does bring up the reasonable question: How could a beginner evaluate the safety of any organized program? YMCA, Scouts, clubs, etc. I realize the point of view that says do all one's learning from a commercial professional guide service, which is certainly not WRONG, but reality is that few will do so, even if we are unanimous in advising so. (like we all went to professional driving schools to learn how to drive!)
Hey, I fixed your post for you. Why didn't you say what you meant? Hahahahahaha.
Curt
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moeman
Apr 3, 2004, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: The best certification? Nothing fancy. Ask around the area--generally, climbers in a given community can vouch for the skill and/or safety of a particular teacher. Reputation transcends certification, and that goes for any industry, profession, or hobby.
Bingo. Go to your local climbing shop and ask for a referral. They'll know who the best guides in town are.
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rokshoxbkr19
Apr 3, 2004, 8:17 PM
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I agree, many of my clients are through word of mouth and I my competency is vouched for by previous clients.
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iclimbtoo
Apr 3, 2004, 9:31 PM
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I feel that common sense a lot of the time is one's best ally. There are a lot of morons out there teaching climbing to people who haven't a clue. I watched this one guy and his wife who were supposedly "teaching" this group of people how to climb at Stone Hill in Eureka, MT tell a kid who was probably around 10 years old to literally run down a short class 3 scree slope. The kid was scared out of his mind. So, since I was up in the general area of this kid, I threw my rope down and told him if he wanted to use it he could. Usually I would have run down it too, but obviously this kid was not comfortable with it, and the "instructors" had more to work on than just that. Maybe what I did was wrong...I think I did the right thing...even though those people were pissed at me for it. I think there are people out there who just don't get it...working with people is a huge other aspect of teaching, not only climbing skills. I think that first people who are going to teach have to have some common sense and know how to work with people beforehand. Then, go on to judge their experience.
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jimdavis
Apr 4, 2004, 5:01 AM
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If you own a guiding service, you should have the money to get certified. I agree that certifications aren't everything, but they are often worth seeking.
Everyone I've known who's taken AMGA courses, or written them, has been able to teach me quite a bit that I would've never thought was true. For example today, I saw the AMGA manual where they had test data from girth hitching slings on wires. And your piece is going to fail way before the webbing will...ect.
I've taken course from Mark Synnott, who deffinitly knows his stuff but isn't certified, and I've worked with Jon Tierney who wrote half of the AMGA technical data.
I think if you want to be a professional guide, and you care about the quality of your guiding, that it'd be well worth your time to go through the AMGA certifications.
To the origional poster...I could probably pass that AMGA TRSM course tomorrow, but it doesn't mean I'm certified to teach you everything and anything...it means I'd know how to keep a group safe Top Roping, and I could show you how to do things involved with top roping safely.
Any one who's taken and passed the AMGA Rock Instructor course, or who you know and trust as a quality instructor, I'd trust to take me out and teach me. Good climbers don't always make good instructors.
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hikerken
Apr 4, 2004, 7:32 PM
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Hey, I fixed your post for you. Why didn't you say what you meant? Hahahahahaha.
Curt
---------------------
Well, because I wanted my post to be about the topic, not about the posters....degenerating into a personal pissing match from which no one learns anthing, and which perpetuates rockclimbing.com as a place where people just want to scream at each other, instead of have an interesting discussion.
Sort of like you, having no knowledge or information to contribute on the topic, but posting anyway...... :roll:
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beaner_says_hi
Apr 4, 2004, 7:56 PM
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Asking for insurance records is also recommended by the AMGA. Even if you don't go with someone who is certified, the process in selecting a guide would be the same. I think, if I'm remembering it right, that the AMGA requires its guides to offer this information.
In regards to certification, not having it from the AMGA doesn't mean "not qualified." Some people just teach because everyone knows who they are. Imagine having to undergo certification when you're more experienced than your tester, for example. And again, there are the costs as already mentioned.
Reputation is good, and I think it's also good to talk to the company over the phone or in person (not email) and find out if you'll actually get along with the guide. I had one company refuse to answer my questions after I asked if there had been any accidents. And that's too bad, because I wouldn't have necessarily excluded him as a result. In fact, I'd think he'd be one of the best teachers, simply because he knows first hand. And I felt really, really bad for him. But, because of the way he responded, that was what removed him from my consideration. I had no doubts whatsoever about his abilities.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 4, 2004, 8:14 PM
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Look for someone who has been climbing -- all kinds: walls, backcountry, alpine, ice, sport, first ascents and classic routes -- extensively for 20 years or more, and who is still alive.
That in itself does not a good teacher make, but it is a good place to start, if you want a similarly long life and climbing career.
Brutus
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hikerken
Apr 4, 2004, 9:15 PM
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So, it seems like most people feel that if a person has a AMGA cert, they are probably good.
My guess is that any commercial service that has been around for awhile would be good, also. Hard to find guides and clients, if you do bad things.
So, that takes care of the commercial folks, but I didn't really have a lot of doubt about them, anyway.
For the club, YMCA, Scouting, university, climbing club folks, about the only thing that I think emerges is to talk to experienced people about them.
For individuals, a lot of experience? I'm not sure Brutus. Certainly would be reassuring about them having adequate skill. I think it would be more important whether their partners had survived...... :)
I think it is terribly difficult to assess such things as teaching skill and patience, vital issues for teaching beginners.
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rokshoxbkr19
Apr 4, 2004, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: If you own a guiding service, you should have the money to get certified
This is the farthest thing from a true statement. Do you have any idea how much work, effort and time it takes to even show minimal profit as a new outfit for guiding? An old addage "what do you call a rock guide without a girlfriend? HOMELESS. We don't make good money, we just love to climb and share it with others.
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wc
Apr 4, 2004, 9:36 PM
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The guy who taught me was the best climber I knew of in my "community" of climbers. He scrambled up and clipped a 'biner to a bolt on the top and TR'ed me up using a hip belay! But hey, everyone vouched for his competence!
But worse was the climbing gym instructor who was showing someone how to give a "dynamic belay" using me as the climber... he jumped to the second clip (the first was unclipped), DROPPED me the entire lenth of the gym (~35'), stopping me 2 feet from the ground, and then used the excuse that the rope burned him!
Furthermore, a well know climber (a lifelong climber who holds speed ascent records on El Cap), forgot to clip the swinging plate of the Gri Gri to the belay biner. I was 45' up, at the crux clip, when he realized what happened. After struggling for rope (which he had lovingly wrapped around his arm several times, as any well traveled, quick witted adventure climber would do in such a situation), I grabbed the draw and clipped in straight.
My point... well, I forgot. Oh yeah, I don't think I would have learned as much about how to belay if I hadn't experience how NOT to belay. Hopefully everyone else can learn from OTHER people's mistakes.
Despite years of climbing, certifications, etc... when you are learning ALWAYS question something if it doesn't seem right... ALWAYS double check everything... and if people make fun of you for double checking EVERY TIME YOU CLIMB, make fun of their mother or something...
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brutusofwyde
Apr 4, 2004, 9:39 PM
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In reply to: For individuals, a lot of experience? I'm not sure Brutus. Certainly would be reassuring about them having adequate skill. I think it would be more important whether their partners had survived...... :)
I stand corrected! :lol:
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beaner_says_hi
Apr 4, 2004, 10:09 PM
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In reply to: My guess is that any commercial service that has been around for awhile would be good, also. Hard to find guides and clients, if you do bad things.
Of course, these people all cater to newcomers, or simply people who aren't familiar with an area. There's a difference between a guide service and a climbing school. So, unless there is a really obvious gaffe, does a newcomer really know if he's been prepared well. What I'm getting at is this: if you're going for a smaller school, try to find someone who wants to get paid to teach you how to climb, not get paid to climb. This is what separates the pros from the amateurs. If he can't give you the time of day to answer questions and let you he knows his stuff and that you'll be well cared for, he may fit into the second category.
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jt512
Apr 5, 2004, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: I Anyone who in certified by AMGA must pass a variety of tests that involve the actual process and techniques of TEACHING, not just climbing. This knowledge tends to transcend particular content.....a good teacher tends to be a good teacher, no matter what they are teaching.
By that reasoning, my 3rd grade English teacher could teach climbing.
Obviously, to be a good teacher requires good teaching skills as well as mastery of the subject matter, which is why it is illogical for you to assume that an AMGA top rope site manager would be qualified to teach a comprehensive climbing course, including traditional, multi-pitch lead climbing, which is what the original poster in that other thread you're referring to was seeking.
In reply to: But it does bring up the reasonable question: How could a beginner evaluate the safety of any organized program? YMCA, Scouts, clubs, etc.
They all but can't, which is the raison d'etre for certification.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 5, 2004, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: My guess is that any commercial service that has been around for awhile would be good, also.
I would consider any commercial climbing school that employed non-certified instructors as suspect because the main reason not to get certified is that you don't meet the qualifications for certification. AMGA has set the bar high.
-Jay
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timstich
Apr 5, 2004, 9:32 PM
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How do you protect a flaring crack? I don't know! I just drink here.
http://www.eastcotehockeyclub.com/images/D&D_2002/20.jpg
I'm happy to tell people what I do in a given situation and am eager to hear what they do, but I'm not comfortable teaching anyone.
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beaner_says_hi
Apr 5, 2004, 10:17 PM
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Well, a lot of skill in teaching means being able to adapt to the student. People learn differently.
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shorty
Apr 5, 2004, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: How could a beginner evaluate the safety of any organized program? YMCA, Scouts, clubs, etc.
My business travels have often sent me around the country, near good climbing areas, and on short notice with little time to line up partners. Over the years I've climbed with a number of guide services, and I have yet to regret any of these days. If it's worth anything, my thoughts on the guide issue.
1. Research is important. Internet, word of mouth, reputation, bios on the guides, even "warm fuzzies" talking to the owners & guides. My bottom line, if something doesn't feel right, go elsewhere.
2. An AMGA service will often cost you more per day, especially for private guiding (the only way I've used guides). For me it's generally been worth it, but not always. Some of my best cragging days were from guys who barely held a driver's license and couldn't even spell AMGA. But man could they climb.
3. The guide will make or break the day. If he/she is competent, safe, having fun, in tune with your head & abilities, understands the climbing area, etc. you will probably have a very good day. However:
4. Your attitude and willingness to learn & follow will make or break the day. If you can roll with the punches and keep a positive outlook, most guides will work their tails off for you.
5. It's pretty amazing to climb with someone whose limits are 10 or 12 letter grades (or more) above your own. I like climb with the top guide available for that service. I learned really quickly that when a 5.14 climber pauses to figure out a move, it's really going to suck for me.
Hikerken -- feel free to PM me if you want additional drivel. I don't know where you intend to climb, but it is possible that I may be able to give you a contact.
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hikerken
Apr 6, 2004, 1:44 AM
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[quote="jt512"]
Obviously, to be a good teacher requires good teaching skills as well as mastery of the subject matter, which is why it is illogical for you to assume that an AMGA top rope site manager would be qualified to teach a comprehensive climbing course, including traditional, multi-pitch lead climbing, which is what the original poster in that other thread you're referring to was seeking.
In reply to: Here is the original post, perhaps you can enlighten me as to where he asks about lead climbing, trad climbing, multi-pitch climbing? Good morning: I decided to learn rock climbing. Some friend of mine that lives oversee showed me the beauty of this sport, he does it since a couple of years and did a 4 month school/training. I looked for a school in LA, didn't find anything very interesting. Only expensive courses of 1 week or 1/2 days classes at the Joshua Tree Park. Now the question: what is the best way to learn this sport in a safe way? I don't think it's possible to learn enough in a couple of days to be safe and confident. How to find people that are good enough to balance your lack of knowledge and experience.? How did you guys start? What do you suggest me? Thanks for your advice!
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hikerken
Apr 6, 2004, 1:48 AM
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shorty, a great, well-thought out answer.
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