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drunkencabanaboy
Apr 7, 2004, 7:18 PM
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DISCLAIMER: I am well aware this topic has been discussed hundreds of times before - so if you feel like flaming me or telling me to use the search then go fuck yourself. Don't bother replying because it's just gonna be ignored. Feel free to do likewise for this post (ignore it).
Ok, I have always been a fan of teaching people the right way to do things, and have thought that tying in was better than clipping in, and belaying with an ATC was preferable to a GRI GRI.
That all changed when I brought a girl to this gym last weekend:
http://stoneworkssilos.com/
At Stone Works they make you tie in, and use an ATC (or other tube-style non-auto-locking belay device - I used my reverso).
I have brought people who have not climbed before to http://www.rockoasis.com/ where they require you to tie in. They use GRI GRIs however.
Stone Works makes you go through their safety course if you have never climbed there before (of course).
To make a long story short, the safety course took OVER 2 hours to teach my friend how to belay and tie in. At the end of which I did NOT feel safe climbing anything close to my ability level. I ended up forcing them to let her use one of my GRI GRIs from the car.
It was the biggest waste of time ever - and I wanted to get to climb outside with the sun - but my plans were ruined - and she had a horrible time - big surprise.
BTW - I really like Stone Works - would definitely recommend it over say Exposure for top roping or lead climbing - maybe even bouldering for now before Exposure puts up their cave. But the ramp up time for first-time climbers is simply unacceptable, and in my opinion, unsafe. I felt much safer when she was using a GRI GRI.
Maybe they are just bad instructors?
Anyways, I thought being in the situation everyone has talked about, has personally changed my opinion.
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desertclimber
Apr 7, 2004, 8:09 PM
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...couldn't YOU have shown her your preferred (and/or proper) method once the 'instructors' walked away?
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climber_osu
Apr 7, 2004, 8:45 PM
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If it takes two hours to teach basic belaying, something is wrong with the instructors or their training methods... or your friend.
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drunkencabanaboy
Apr 7, 2004, 8:45 PM
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Believe me - i did.
It consisted of: "never ever ever touch this lever until i say 'please let me down'" and "keep pulling up on this end of the rope as hard as you can".
ROFL
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drunkencabanaboy
Apr 7, 2004, 8:46 PM
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In reply to: If it takes two hours to teach basic belaying, something is wrong with the instructors or their training methods... or your friend.
I _do_ think their teaching methods sucked.
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gds
Apr 7, 2004, 8:50 PM
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I'm confused. What is it that upset you? And why the conclusion on gri gri vs. tuber?
If your friend was totally new to climbing i don't hink that two hours of introduction is a waste. I know of many gyms that do the same. Of course, one hopes that at the end they can tie in properly and belay safely. If that didn't happen something is wrong-either with the teacher or student.
On the other hand, if your friend had experience the intro course is a waste. Every gym I've gone to asks if your expereinced and if so spends a few minutes checking you out; and then you're good to go.
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monopocketmojo
Apr 7, 2004, 8:56 PM
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I teach at a gym, and groups are given two hours of instruction to learn harnesses (BD bod's), figure-8's, and basic belaying. But, I've never used the full two hours unless the group is huge and there are a ton of people to belay check, or they just don't get it--like never taking your right hand off the rope! Personally, I would shoot myself if I had to teach for the full two hours, plus it can't be that much fun for the people learning. Kudos on the Gri-Gri instruction drunkencabanaboy...
In reply to: It consisted of: "never ever ever touch this lever until i say 'please let me down'" and "keep pulling up on this end of the rope as hard as you can". |
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drunkencabanaboy
Apr 7, 2004, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: I'm confused. What is it that upset you? And why the conclusion on gri gri vs. tuber? If your friend was totally new to climbing i don't hink that two hours of introduction is a waste.
What upset me: 2 Hours of time spent teaching someone a skill they will probably never use again, a $5 fee to cover the employee's time, and in the end feeling unsafe.
Why the conclusion: GRI GRI would have taken 5 minutes to teach. It is perfectly safe for top rope when taught correctly. It takes less time than teaching tube-style. It would have been cheaper and more fun if they had just taught GRI GRI. I feel much safer when belayed by a beginner using a GRI GRI. Their primary motivation for banning GRI GRIs was: "excessive wear on the rope" - well - if they really thought this was going to save them from replacing ropes that fast, why the $5 fee?
Plus I was ticked I didn't get to climb in the sun :) hehehe
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katanaman
Apr 7, 2004, 9:32 PM
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the gym i started climbing at teaches new people with a gri gri, i figure this is probably best because it is a bit safer. as for instructors and all, well, sometimes people just arent capable of learnin the ATC in one sitting, especially their first time climbing. so even if the instructors teach it perfectly the student might not "absorb" everything they said, making for a fearful and not so fun first time. go with the gri gri the first time, and maybe l8ter show ur friend how to use it when ur bored on a rainy day, and then they can get checked out next time u hit up the gym:)
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drunkencabanaboy
Apr 7, 2004, 9:34 PM
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I guess my question is: What good reason would anyone have for banning GRI GRIs in a gym under top-rope conditions?
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robmcc
Apr 7, 2004, 9:35 PM
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In reply to: DISCLAIMER: I am well aware this topic has been discussed hundreds of times before - so if you feel like flaming me or telling me to use the search then go f--- yourself.
This would make an excellent signature. :D
Rob
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pk
Apr 7, 2004, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: I guess my question is: What good reason would anyone have for banning GRI GRIs in a gym under top-rope conditions?
I've seen more noobs drop people with a gri gri then any other device on the market.
Must have something to do with "I'm falling, TAKE" lever lever where's the lever. There it is, "ok gotcha" /scream crater. "I had the level down I'm soo sorry!
P.K.
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gds
Apr 7, 2004, 9:47 PM
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I guess I'm still confused about why you are so upset. If you wanted to climb outside you could have done so and taught your friend any way you liked. If you think two hours is absurd-don't go there and sign up for the course. I can't imagine they took your $5 and made her attend without saying it was a 2 hour course.
Now if the issue is that she spent two hours and still could not belay or tie in- then there is an issue as to whether or not the instruction was competent - and you certainly deserve to have competent instruction.
As to the tuber vs. gri-gri. I've taught tuber belaying many times and can get students to be totally safe in ~ 10 minutes. It's not a matter of right or wrong but I would much rather be lowered by a beginner with a tuber than a beginner with a gri gri. And my personal belief is that learning with a tuber teaches better belay technique.I know others disagree.
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drunkencabanaboy
Apr 7, 2004, 10:09 PM
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In reply to: I guess I'm still confused about why you are so upset. If you wanted to climb outside you could have done so and taught your friend any way you liked. If you think two hours is absurd-don't go there and sign up for the course.
If was a requisite for climbing at the gym.. not something we "signed up for" per-se.
My earlier plans for going to Mineral wells that day were foiled - so 2 hours of daylight left = "Hey! Let's go to this gym where you can climb outside!"
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drunkencabanaboy
Apr 7, 2004, 10:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I guess my question is: What good reason would anyone have for banning GRI GRIs in a gym under top-rope conditions? I've seen more noobs drop people with a gri gri then any other device on the market. Must have something to do with "I'm falling, TAKE" lever lever where's the lever. There it is, "ok gotcha" /scream crater. "I had the level down I'm soo sorry! P.K.
Actually - that does make sense - I have fallen victim to that myself. I was falling off a 5.11 - and i told the guy to take - and he started clawing at the lever - and i was like "NO NO - TAKE!" - and he was like "I'm Trying!" - I was like "PULL UP THE EXTRA ROPE YOU DOUCHE BAG!".. turns out he thought "take" = let me down.
Needless to say, he is not my normal partner - and def. not my lead climbing partner LOL... but i'm just saying - ya - I can see that as being a problem because it has happened to me.
But is a 10-15 - 25? foot fall unto padding really gonna hurt that much?
I honestly am not sure - i have been surprised at how far up i have fallen from bouldering/etc and been relatively unhurt.
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moondog
Apr 7, 2004, 11:39 PM
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In reply to: Why the conclusion: GRI GRI would have taken 5 minutes to teach. It is perfectly safe for top rope when taught correctly. It takes less time than teaching tube-style. It would have been cheaper and more fun if they had just taught GRI GRI.
To say it takes only 5 minutes to train a beginner to use the Grigri is dangerous thinking IMO. Of course, the Grigri may save your butt if things go awry, but it also introduces some subtle ways for the beginning belayer to screw up: incorrect set-up, using wrong/poor technique to give slack, pulling the lever before control of the rope is established in lowering, using the lever to lower, etc.
A good argument can be made that proper use of the Grigri demands more training, understanding, and awareness than with traditional belay devices. Maybe I'm just getting old and 'noid, but I'd never trust a total beginner to give a competent belay (and don't forget the crucial lower on single-pitch stuff), regardless of the device used.
BTW, climbing / belaying is NEVER "perfectly safe".
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heath
Apr 8, 2004, 12:31 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Must have something to do with "I'm falling, TAKE" lever lever where's the lever. There it is, "ok gotcha" /scream crater. "I had the level down I'm soo sorry! Actually - that does make sense - I have fallen victim to that myself. I was falling off a 5.11 - and i told the guy to take - and he started clawing at the lever - and i was like "NO NO - TAKE!" - and he was like "I'm Trying!" - I was like "PULL UP THE EXTRA ROPE YOU DOUCHE BAG!".. turns out he thought "take" = let me down.
I've had that exact same thing happen to me when belayed by someone with a GriGri. I think it's a fairly common condition.
In reply to: But is a 10-15 - 25? foot fall unto padding really gonna hurt that much?
I took a 10-foot fall when my normal belay partner burned his brake hand and let go of the rope, the lever on the GriGri caught the rope and didn't close dropping me on the deck. Fortunately, this was in gym where it was padded, so I wasn't injured.
I'm a heavy guy and I feel more comfortable being lowered with an ATC-XP (or any high-friction tuber) than a GriGri, which generates very little friction when the cam is totally open as the instructions illustrate that it should when lowering.
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j_dub
Apr 15, 2004, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: But is a 10-15 - 25? foot fall unto padding really gonna hurt that much? I honestly am not sure - i have been surprised at how far up i have fallen from bouldering/etc and been relatively unhurt.
Well... our gym has 55 foot walls for top-roping. That's a fall that's gonna hurt, padding or not. :shock: It's easy enough to twist or sprain an ankle just falling off a bouldering problem, but you EXPECT to fall off those. I won't climb with anyone who I think is going to drop me. Seriously, why even bother with a rope and harness at all, then?
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fiend
Apr 15, 2004, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: If it takes two hours to teach basic belaying, something is wrong with the instructors or their training methods... or your friend.
Having worked as an instructor at a climbing gym I can tell you to not underestimate the stupidity of the average person that walks through those doors. Our lessons were supposed to last about 2 hours. Some were done in 1.5 and I've spent 4 hours with some people.
20-30min: harness and knots. You have to show them how then watch them do it.
20min: belay demo. We talk. They listen.
The rest of the time is spent with us observing, backing up and correcting and virtually no one is perfect in the first few belays.
I've seen the results of gyms that do fifteen minute belay lessons and I can't believe that there aren't more climbing accidents at gyms and crags these days.
Edit: our gym only allowed Gri-Gris and they were anchored in on all TR lines which is much nicer than having to belay off your harness.
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debsanders
Apr 15, 2004, 4:24 PM
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Most gyms use Gri-Gris due to insurance requirements. The rates or cheaper and/or the policy dictates their use.
Makes me wonder about Stoneworks and their insurance policy. I would think the investment of Gri-Gris would offset the lower premium. oh well. . .
I climbed there several years back while not experienced and did the tie in ATC thing which was fine. With the silos it is hard to communicate with your climber/belayer. If we did go back we'd probably use our GG instead of ATC. My husband outweighs and I like the extra holding power the GG gives me.
Deb
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fredrogers
Apr 15, 2004, 5:35 PM
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Whenever you take a beginner rock climbing for the first time it should be only for the beginner. Take the time to teach them everything they need to know and help them feel comfortable in this new environment. Don't just think you can show up, teach them how to belay in 5 min, and then work hard on your latest project. It sounds like you dragged your friend out to the gym and tried to cram in a quick session. Then you probably frustrated and confused them with all this bitching about the minor issue of ATC vs. GriGri. Lame.
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kman
Apr 15, 2004, 6:40 PM
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^^no doubt Fredrogers.
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boz84
Apr 15, 2004, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: As to the tuber vs. gri-gri. I've taught tuber belaying many times and can get students to be totally safe in ~ 10 minutes. It's not a matter of right or wrong but I would much rather be lowered by a beginner with a tuber than a beginner with a gri gri. And my personal belief is that learning with a tuber teaches better belay technique.I know others disagree.
Indeed.
Ive thought at least a hundred scouts, ranging in age from 12-18, and ability from straight out of the cornpatch new, to slightly experienced how to belay SAFELY with an ATC in about 10-15 minutes.
Tack on another 10-20 minutes if showing them also how to tie in, and put on the harness.
All of those, btw, are requirements for the climbing merit badge, so they ALL need to know them to pass. And what do you know? VERY VERY few cant figure this out very shortly.
Id hate to say that tyour friend was incompetent, and maybe it was the instructors, but Id have to say its a little bit of both. Perhaps YOU should have taken her aside before hand and shown her some of the basics.
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vertical_reality
Apr 15, 2004, 7:51 PM
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Did any of the other students in the class have trouble after they took the class? If not, then you know where the trouble is. Either way, it was your own fault that your day was ruined so stop trying to blame it on her.
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