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euroford
Jul 19, 2004, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...he can't help but make huge involving replies to my posts. Some people call that "being helpful." -Jay
i love you to man!!
okay anyways. back on topic.
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tripperjm
Jul 19, 2004, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: Sometimes on really hard sport routes (cutting edge 14s, etc.) you'll see climbers skip clips because some of the bolts are "working bolts." These are only used for working the route and not needed on redpoint attempts.
This is the tactic I used to do the fa on the "Twist of Fate", of course I took a number of long but safe falls before sending... and...ummm... it wasn't 5.14. I never could figure out how to clip that bolt
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gambler
Jul 19, 2004, 11:05 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
In reply to: "that may change when the overhangs become more popular" do you really thing overhangs will become popular? :wink: gambler
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tripperjm
Jul 19, 2004, 11:30 PM
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[quote="gambler"]vegastradguy wrote:
In reply to: "that may change when the overhangs become more popular" do you really thing overhangs will become popular? :wink: gambler
Not likely, too strenuous and scary for most.
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itakealot
Jul 20, 2004, 1:10 AM
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In reply to: Mental training. -Jay
With all the flaming going on, I am suprised no one flamed Jay on this statement.
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tripperjm
Jul 20, 2004, 2:00 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Mental training. -Jay With all the flaming going on, I am suprised no one flamed Jay on this statement.
Craig ????? I don't get it. Given that 90% of climbing is mental, training to do moves above gear is a great excercise. I often skip clips on moderate ground for just this reason. While projecting, on work runs, I have also jumped from the bolt(instead of clipping it) above a crux runout to get mentaly prepared for red point.
That why I DONT take a lot. HAHAHA!!!1
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mheyman
Jul 20, 2004, 3:07 AM
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In reply to: anyways, the alien was frikin solid, anyways, who gives a s---! i don't need to justify my friends lead to you.
No you didn't, but you posted it so now you get to read what we think.
In reply to: it was a bold clean lead, one that i'm sure he's very proud of. i truly believe that if he had taken the whip it would have been of little consiquence, even if the alien had pulled, there were pieces below it obviously.
If the alien had pulled with little energy absorption, what would the fall factor have been?
In reply to: its simply a case of a leader climbing within his abilities and making the gear choices which he feels are best.
Despite what I have written above, if your friend was capable of easily soloing this route, then perhaps it wasn't as dumb a thing to do as you have made it sound.
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beesty511
Jul 20, 2004, 4:15 AM
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This is another possible result when running it out on easy terrain:
from the NPS site
http://data2.itc.nps.gov/morningreport/
In reply to: Yosemite National Park (CA) Climbing Fatality on Lower Cathedral Rock On the morning of Saturday, May 31st, Chris Hampson, 25, of Breckenridge, Colorado, died while climbing the Overhang Bypass route on Lower Cathedral Rock in Yosemite Valley. Climbing a considerable distance above his last protection, Hampson took a leader fall of at least 80 feet and was caught by his partner, Sybille Hechtel. Hampson ended up around a corner from Hechtel and did not respond to her yells. Minutes after the fall another climber, Bob Jensen, happened upon Hechtel while free soloing the same route. Jensen climbed up to a point on the route where he could see Hampson hanging more than 40 feet below. Jensen called out to Hampson and encouraged him to try to climb back up. Hampson could not climb and appeared disoriented to Jensen. Hampson also said that he could not see. Without gear to descend to Hampson, Jensen down-climbed the route and then drove to the Valley SAR cache, where he reported the incident at 12:15 p.m. SAR team members responded and a paramedic was with Hampson by 1:57 p.m. Medical control at the Yosemite Medical Clinic pronounced Hampson dead via the radio at 2:12 p.m. Hampsons body was lowered about 300 feet to a ledge. From there he was transported by long line under the park helicopter to the Crane Flat Helibase. Hampson received severe trauma to his head in the fall. He was not wearing a helmet. (Submitted by Jack Hoeflich, IC) In reply to: My apologies for not posting about this tragedy earlier. The NPS report posted by Melissa and freeclimber explains the basics of what happened last Saturday (thanks for posting that information). Chriss death has been hard on everyone, and I want to make sure other climbers have the right information about how he died, or at least the best information we have. I work as a climbing ranger in Yosemite Valley and assisted with the rescue effort. For those who are not familiar with the Overhang Bypass route, Sybille was belaying at the base of a long low angle ramp/corner called the Hog Trough that ends with a moderately difficult mantle move (5.8 of 5.9) where a large block fell off the route a number of years ago. Based on where Chris stopped after taking his fall, he likely fell while climbing in easier terrain well above this crux move. After leaving the belay he clipped his rope into a runner on a tree part way up the trough. He then continued up past another tree, likely climbed through the mantle, and then fell somewhere higher on the pitch. The second tree that he passed on the trough (but did not clip with a runner) was what caught his fall when his rope ran over its trunk. He was not wearing a helmet on the route and likely sustained a serious head injury during his fall. After Bob Jensen reported the accident Keith Lober and I simul-climbed the route as an initial blitz while others followed with additional equipment. By the time we reached a high point above Chris and lowered to his location he had already died. Sybille has worked with Yosemites rescue team for decades, and she did all that she could have done in this situation. Two additional climbers were also on the route, and Id like to thank them again for their help. Though I only met Chris briefly a few weeks ago, over the last few days I have learned from others what an amazing and inspirational person he was. My condolences to his friends and family, and Im glad that some of those friends are now friends of my own. I cant guarantee how often I will be checking this forum over the next week, but I will do my best to answer questions and provide information when I can. My thanks to all who joined in Camp 4 Sunday morning. -Link |
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tim
Jul 20, 2004, 5:51 PM
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whoa, I'm starting to really like Beesty.
I hate having to justify why I'm putting in a couple pieces before a hard, delicate, or hazardous move. I climb to have fun, not to prove that I'm dumb enough to become a paraplegic (or an organ donor).
The flip side to this is that if I'm really willing to run it out, way way out, I'll either solo the damn thing or let my partner know that I'm going to die if I come off. At least that's honest. (this is when I'm past the point of no return and discover that no, I'm not going to get anything until the belay). Same thing with alpine terrain -- it's pretty much a given that you're going to get hurt, badly, if you blow it on an alpine route.
'Mental training' is fine with a clean fall and some solid pro, but some of the examples -- running it out on a black alien, whipping 30' on a bad nut -- do not represent 'training' so much as 'a snap judgement on what your life is worth'. I'm guilty of the same -- a few weeks ago I jumped on Broomsticks at the Needles and realized at some point that if I came off, I was probably going to deck from 100' up. I had one decent piece in. Bold or stupid, I don't know, but the objective risk is hard to downplay.
I climb like an old man because I'm really warming up to the idea of making it that far ;-)
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brownbear
Jul 20, 2004, 6:15 PM
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Stupidity
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skinnyjim
Jul 20, 2004, 6:26 PM
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that is just ignorance.. not wearing a helmet and running it out 40 ft....
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adamtd
Jul 20, 2004, 7:12 PM
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since I climb in an alpine setting usally, I skip placements for two reasons usually. 1. Speed - it takes time to place gear and the faster you climb the less time you are exposed to danger, on the same note though, you need ot be on terrain you know you aren't going to fall on, and that in teh event of an accident, the minimal gear you do have in will hold. 2. Decrease rope drag - on routes that wander, clipping every intermediate piece can increase rope drag to teh point that teh rope is pulling you off teh route.
My philosophy is that if you are doing it consciously and not just ignorant... go for it.
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hosh
Jul 20, 2004, 7:38 PM
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Yeah, I try and place gear when I can and avoid the run out. The last time I ran anything out was on a 5.10 line and it wasn't really even a real run-out. And I always wear a helmet. Always.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 20, 2004, 7:51 PM
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These scenarios depend on where the next good gear is below the bad/small gear.
A black alien can be a reasonable piece when it is at waist or foot level. Go much beyond that and it is a "bad" piece, pretty much by definition.
It is generally a bad idea to run it out off a known bad piece.
Free soloing, dragging a rope and a partner along with you is stupid.
Running it out can be a useful technique, but it can also be overdone.
"If in doubt, run it out." Effectively, it comes down to meaning, don't stop to place gear in the middle of the crux move or dont place gear in less then ideal places.
For another example, starting a trad line it is often safer to go a little past the first place you feel like you need gear, before you place it. It seems and feels less safe but on balance, it ends up being safer.
Sport climbing/skipping bolts
Moderate: It can be good practice to skip bolts in order to practice focusing on the holds instead of the bolts. (actually falling while doing this would be stupid)
At your limit: Way useful in terms of energy conservation on steep safe routes. I skip bolts all the time on my projects.
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petsfed
Jul 20, 2004, 10:27 PM
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In reply to: that is just ignorance.. not wearing a helmet and running it out 40 ft....
Would you believe that if you whip from 40 feet above a placement, the little shock absorption a helmet provides in wall+head impact is minimal at best? Helmets can and do save lives, but an 80 foot fall that involves head injuries, helmet or no, will end with a permanent wheel chair, if you're lucky.
As far as running it out goes, what do we deem moderate ground? I ran it out 100 feet today. It was 5.2, but I didn't need any more rope drag. Am I irresponsible? I didn't have to run it out. I could've protected if I wanted. But it was after the 5.7 section that started the pitch (which I also partially ran out for shear lack of good pro). But I must be playing with fire. Next time I'll rope up when I go downstairs to do laundry.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 23, 2004, 4:55 PM
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It is crucial to look ahead when alpine or long trad rt climbing. If you skip a placement on the easy ground and then end up totaly gripped on a hard move with no gear you will be in big do do. running it out on easy ground is good to facilitate speed but you must be 100% on that terraine and you MUST look ahead and plan were your next piece is going to go. Example. Self to Self. ' ok this is cool, keep moveing, be smooth, don't pull on that it looks loose, ok looks like it gets hard up there lets get somthing in before we get there so we arnt placeing 60ft out on hard ground, ok thatstopper is bomber lets get up into the buisness there, $hit this is hard , glad i placed before i got into it, ok green alien ok lets go, smooth, climb like a kitty, don't pull on that block, ok bomber gold camalot looks like its cruise the last 40 feet to that bundel of tat up there, must be the belay, hot dam that was sick, OFF BELAY8^)
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onbelay007
Jul 26, 2004, 11:51 PM
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It's easy to criticize when the whole situation has not been presented. First of all, I believe Euroford meant the fall would have been a total of 25 ft including rope stretch as I was about 10 ft above the black alien. My next piece was a bomber nut about 16 ft above the alien because 10 ft above it is a 18 inch standing ledge. Also, 2 ft below the alien was a bomber hex. In addition the climb was a stiff 5.6 (if you've ever climbed at Devil's Lake yes, there really are stiff 5.6s). Also, this was a climb I had toproped with ease several times. So, would I like to back up the alien? Sure, I would have loved to pop in a small nut two feet above it. I'm fully capable of climbing the crux so why take my first leader fall trying to pop in a piece in order to sew it up? After struggling with the pro for a few moments I just said screw it and took off without too much difficulty. I know my climbing ability. You know yours.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 27, 2004, 2:35 AM
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If there was a bomber hex 2 ft below the alien it was in fact backed up. End of conversation.
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onbelay007
Jul 27, 2004, 2:52 AM
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Well 2 ft was probably exaggerating but yeah, there was a good piece below it. Just trying to explain a situation where I felt confident being above a small piece.
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timpanogos
Jul 27, 2004, 3:56 AM
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I did a grade II supposedly 5.6 route with Alpinerocket in BCC last Saturday, Called Standard Ridge.
There was one full 60 meter face pitch guide book noted it something like steep section can be by-passed on the west.
There were a few possible lines on the by-pass all had lots of pro, and it looked like plenty of 5.6 jugs/stances.
The face being by-passed way too pretty for John! He wanted that lead. Run out heck yea, rating who knows under vertical plenty of edges biggest being first knuckle type of deal. All the moves were there and solid not pumpy, but who was to know what the next section would bring? DFU and super focus because very little pro and what there was had to be creative (tri-cams very small nuts/tcus wonder-a-bit for placements).
Like Jay is saying way mental 5.7 maybe 5.8 but DONt FU, and there is NO turning back.
So it turned out a NBD (no big deal) for technical/hardness of climbing but a super proud lead based on needed focus, guts and commitment run-out after run-out, on marginal placements for what did go in the full 200
Way proud lead!
Oh, thats one reason you run it out.
Chad
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kalcario
Jul 27, 2004, 4:13 AM
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*Like Jay is saying way mental 5.7 maybe 5.8 but DONt FU, and there is NO turning back.*
NO turning back. Really. Can't downclimb 5.7-5.8? That's your standard downclimb from the Josh free solo circuit.
Try that runout when it's actually hard climbing, runout 5.8 is what BEGINNERS crow about
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timpanogos
Jul 27, 2004, 5:23 AM
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yea, yea - thanks for the hardman input.
I'm a newby noob, never claimed any different. I've seen some run out, but never seen a full 200' of it.
stupid newby question, but does j-tree have 60 meter slabs/face climbs? Don't know never been there. Id love to see you down climb 200 of 5.8 however.
This was more of an alpine - only no 5 mile approach - lots of route finding, down climbing, simul climbing etc.
The point was several lines of way easy/jugging by-pass, as suggested by guide book, or go for the harder run-out because of the mental challenge yes, sometimes you purposefully run-it out.
If your mental is not pushed until some 5.10a slab or something good on ya - for me, I was impressed with the 5.8 it would have pushed my mental for sure.
I was also real impressed reading about Dwight Bishops climbing resume. Even with a climber as strong and experienced as him
DFU even if its NBD seems it better/should be a mental for all of us.
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jcshaggy
Jul 27, 2004, 10:11 AM
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Yep! Sometimes I save energy skipping a bolt or two and i can actually finish the route.
When in doubt,clip in. I reckon you get a feel of what you can and cannot do over time. Experience plays a big part but hey, that's just my opinion!
Drink lots of beer in reflection!
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itakealot
Jul 27, 2004, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ...he can't help but make huge involving replies to my posts. Some people call that "being helpful." -Jay i love you to man!! okay anyways. back on topic.
All of us who have gotten to know Jay over the years as feel the same.
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