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uasunflower
Aug 6, 2004, 5:59 PM
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yeah, jugline is actually not that bad with the right beta, i fell off it a couple of times on TR, and then led it w/o a problem when moving in the right direction. Bolts are sometimes confusing, as Jake said, you have to get out of the box, and look for the next hold, not the next bolt.
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dingus
Aug 6, 2004, 6:26 PM
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When you see a route with a plus after the rating it might be useful to better understand the use of that plus...
5.7 plus tells you the route is harder than 5.7. Many automatically assume that is it harder than 5.7, not as hard as 5.8.
NOPE! That may occasionally be the case, but not often in my experience. A plus route is harder than its advertised rating, but you will not know how much harder till you get on it.
5 doet anything, PLUS... watch out!
DMT
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calfcramp
Aug 6, 2004, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: When you see a route with a plus after the rating it might be useful to better understand the use of that plus... 5.7 plus tells you the route is harder than 5.7. Many automatically assume that is it harder than 5.7, not as hard as 5.8. NOPE! That may occasionally be the case, but not often in my experience. A plus route is harder than its advertised rating, but you will not know how much harder till you get on it. 5 doet anything, PLUS... watch out! DMT
Hence the name `Truth in Advertising`I guess.... But I would still put it in the 8`s rather than the 7`s. How bout a 5.8-? Why have an overlap in a ratings system anyway? Just confuses matters. Especially since there is the + and - to use.
And why do the a, b, c, etc... only start at 5.10?
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jakedatc
Aug 6, 2004, 6:44 PM
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i don't see many routes with minus's outside of the gym...
plus's is what dingus said.. it gives you a bit of a mystery... why is it not just an 8.. or not an easy 9... alot of the time you can make it a 9 by missing a key hold or getting a sequence messed up.. and especially at rumney trying to get anchor hungry and trying to go straight up instead of how the route flows
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calfcramp
Aug 6, 2004, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: i don't see many routes with minus's outside of the gym... plus's is what dingus said.. it gives you a bit of a mystery... why is it not just an 8.. or not an easy 9... alot of the time you can make it a 9 by missing a key hold or getting a sequence messed up.. and especially at rumney trying to get anchor hungry and trying to go straight up instead of how the route flows
Oh I believe it...
But in the case of the route I was ranting about, it was 5.7+. Having climbed other 5.7s at Rumney as well as more difficult routes that day, this 5.7+ was way out in left field in terms of total difficulty compared to the others.
It just strikes me as strange that within a rating system there can be so much variability. Mind you, I suppose there are 1001 factors that affect the difficulty of routes depending on the climber, knowledge of the route, fitness, favorite style, etc...
But I still don`t get what the point is of being stingy on the bolts. The moves of the route remain exactly the same, but it's less risky.
Perhaps a separate rating for the protection of the route. Like say, a weighted average of the distance between bolts (rounded to the nearest foot) along with a min and a max. I know this isn`t going to be attractive to the harcore purists out there, but it`s just a simple calculation afterall.
I mean, a 40 foot 5.6 route is a 5.6 route whether there 2 bolts on it, or 10 bolts on it, right? But I think we would all agree that the one with 2 is WAAAAAAY different from the one with 10 right?
AGAIN: I'm not complaining here, just picking the brains of those in the know. I'm pretty new to climbing but have an interest in how routes are developed. Especially after the events described in my original post. :angel:
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jakedatc
Aug 6, 2004, 8:06 PM
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like i said .. i'll do it either tomorrow or sunday and see what i think again...
plus you have to factor in that it was the last route of the day.. you were rushing due to the rain... it was probably a tad slick
i didnt find the bolts stingy on TIA when there is a bunch of easy moves for like 15 feet.. i dont expect there to be a bolt.. it's not necessary and is more trouble than it's worth.. bolting takes time, money and work.. also alot of bolts showing up on easy ground looks horrible... example
go to Main cliff.. Armed and dangerous 10b... and look at where those are bolted... you get 3ish bolts through the crux.. then after the crux it's like 5.4 climbing up to the roof.. there is not a bolt for 20 feet(if there had been bolts in this section i would have laughed and possibly skipped it ) then a bolt under the roof before you pull the first roof move.. then i think 1 more before the anchors
there is a grading system for Trad routes for amount of protection.. it's G, PG, PG-13 (sometimes) , R, X so anything from good.. lots of placements to don't fall or you're in big trouble
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jakedatc
Aug 9, 2004, 12:25 AM
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Calfcramp! hehe ok so i led the route twice this weekend.. on a good day and a bad day.. i still think it's a solid 7+.. use all the feet, remember it's slab.. dont over grip.. dont forget to clip the piton .. hopefully your next time on it will be better... on your side of harder is Edge and his daughter.. on my side is Shakylegs
anyway... it doesnt much matter.. if you feel it's harder then its harder for you.. oh well.. im sure you've found routes that are easier for the grade too so it all balances out :)
lata
jake
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redpoint73
Aug 9, 2004, 2:54 AM
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In reply to: But at Rumney, er, uh, I mean "the area in question".... I notice that the guidebook has a little heart with wings to show that it's a "scary" route and a gun to show that the route is "dangerous" meaning a fall will put you in the hospital at best. I vote that T I A should at least be given the little heart with wings.
The fluttering heart basically means an "R" rated climb, and the gun means "X". Only poorly protected trad routes gain these symbols in the guide.
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sustainedclimber
Aug 9, 2004, 3:43 AM
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As someone who has climbed the route in question, I feel that it's my duty to respond. I too climbed T I A at the end of a day when I was thoroughly exhausted. I was questioning the rating the entire time, and upon completion would compare it in difficulty to Bolt Line (5.8) which is further to the right on the meadows wall. I shoud mention that I used the pin in the horizontal crack and I cannot imagine how ridiculous the runout you are describing is...there's a very good reason that pin is there!! Also, I think the 5.8 at Bonsai that someone was talking about with rusty pins is Kamikaze. Not hard, just a little eye opening for 5.8. I wish I lived closer to Rumney!!!
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edge
Aug 9, 2004, 1:57 PM
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Calfcramp, you must have some serious cojones to have climbed that route without clipping the pin!
It is in the big horizontal crack between the third and fourth bolts, a 1" angle sort of straight in and back about 6-8 inches, so I can see where you might have missed it if you weren't looking for it. I sent my daughter up on it first, but we told her to look for it. As Jake mentioned, both she and I thought it was closer to an 8 (she didn't know the rating when she climbed it), but then again I was having a horrible day and everything was feeling hard to me.
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calfcramp
Aug 9, 2004, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: Calfcramp, you must have some serious cojones to have climbed that route without clipping the pin!
I guess that's one way of looking at it.... :lol:
I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking it's at least a little harder than the rating.
I'll be clipping that pin next time for dang sure though if I can find it.
I still like my bolt distance index idea, anyone else consider this a decent idea?
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jakedatc
Aug 9, 2004, 6:31 PM
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calf it would vary every route and never be a consistant way to grade things..
especially when you get into different areas weather it's rap bolted or on lead..
run out between bolts is usually an indication of easy climbing for the grade.. like my example of Armed and dangerous.. it's a 10b but there is probably at least 20 feet or more between 2 of the bolts in the middle.. probably a ground fall if you were to screw up but it's like 5.4 climbing so anyone attempting to lead a 10b should never have an issue with 5.4 no matter if there is a bolt there or not..
either way.. get more routes under your belt and i bet you'll become more comfortable being above your last bolt... if not... well.. you'll just have things be a little scary sometimes but i guess that could be fun too..
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dgkula
Aug 9, 2004, 7:46 PM
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If you folks want another runout slab climb, check out the first pitch of Bombardment, up the road at Cathedral. It checks in at 5.6R and, as such, picks up the fluttering heart in the guidebook which, I though from the ground, wouldn't be such a big deal as it is only 5.6 and I onsight 5.7 trad.
Wrong! Especially as I got offroute and tried to go straight up and not diagonal right to the quartz dike. Man, the King lives. I danced myself back down that nice and slowly, legs a'quaking.
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edge
Aug 9, 2004, 7:50 PM
Post #39 of 47
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Yep, you really want to hit the faint dike out right for that one.
I top roped the direct line years ago and thought it felt about 5.9.
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shakylegs
Aug 9, 2004, 8:49 PM
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dg, i so understand. you get in your head that slab 5.6 will be easy, and then, on bombardment, you're looking at a groundfall, and suddenly escaping 10 feet to your right just doesn't feel like cheating anymore.
Back to TIA; for an area that's only recently been developed, I'm surprised that the + exists for climbs in Rumney, even for what was obviously a 7. (hee)
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calfcramp
Aug 10, 2004, 11:59 AM
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In reply to: Back to TIA; for an area that's only recently been developed, I'm surprised that the + exists for climbs in Rumney, even for what was obviously a 7. (hee)
Doh! :deadhorse:
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kman
Aug 10, 2004, 1:06 PM
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Watch out for those routes with a + behind the grade. Out here for example a 5.9+ does not mean it's between a 5.9 and 5.10. It means back in the day the old schoolers didn't want to be the first to claim a 5.10 or up so they call it 5.9 and throw a + in their :lol: If you come up to the Canadian Rockies watch out for 5.9 A2 routes.
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wonder1978
Aug 12, 2004, 5:44 AM
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Calf,
As I'm also a climber from Mtl, I'm quite surprised that you would find a route at Rumney rough at the grade. As was already mentionned, Rumney is known to be pretty soft on grades, and especialy compared with nearby areas like Val-David (an excessively sandbagged crag). You're probably having a hard time finding stuff to lead around here right?
I was at Rumney with a couple of friends 2 weeks ago and we did TIA on our warm up day. It felt like a fun .7 slab to me. Slabs always feel a bit harder because the fall prospect is grim and the holds are smaller, two factors that often lead to a lot of overgripping and wasted energy. If you want to keep on climbing low angled routes, I think you'll have to find a way to relax yourself and forget about the potential fall. Either that or just forget about anything below 5.9 when you go to Rumney, that way you won't have to deal with slab routes and you will enjoy clean falls all day long.
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calfcramp
Aug 12, 2004, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: Calf, As I'm also a climber from Mtl, I'm quite surprised that you would find a route at Rumney rough at the grade. As was already mentionned, Rumney is known to be pretty soft on grades, and especialy compared with nearby areas like Val-David (an excessively sandbagged crag). You're probably having a hard time finding stuff to lead around here right? I was at Rumney with a couple of friends 2 weeks ago and we did TIA on our warm up day. It felt like a fun .7 slab to me. Slabs always feel a bit harder because the fall prospect is grim and the holds are smaller, two factors that often lead to a lot of overgripping and wasted energy. If you want to keep on climbing low angled routes, I think you'll have to find a way to relax yourself and forget about the potential fall. Either that or just forget about anything below 5.9 when you go to Rumney, that way you won't have to deal with slab routes and you will enjoy clean falls all day long.
Well, like I said, it wan't necessarily the difficulty of the moves. I flashed the route. It was just excessively scary due to the distance between the bolts. Specifically between the 3rd and 4th. Apparently I missed a piton.
I've never been to Val David. I go to Mtn. d'Argent though. TIA was harder than 5.8+ routes I've done there. I guess Mtn d'Argent is super soft?
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jakedatc
Aug 12, 2004, 7:19 PM
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well the route was bolted with the intention of clipping the piton... were you looking at Ward smiths book? if so u shoulda been looking for the pin especially if you didnt see a bolt coming up for a long time
if you want to add freaking out into the grade you gotta move to the Font boulder system.. it adds in all kinds of factors..
also the other bolts are pretty evenly spaced for 5.7 slab
also.2 the FAist is around 6'1 so if you're shorter then reaching each bolt from a good stance maybe more difficult (this was part of edge's daughters thinking)
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calfcramp
Aug 12, 2004, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: well the route was bolted with the intention of clipping the piton... were you looking at Ward smiths book? if so u shoulda been looking for the pin especially if you didnt see a bolt coming up for a long time if you want to add freaking out into the grade you gotta move to the Font boulder system.. it adds in all kinds of factors.. also the other bolts are pretty evenly spaced for 5.7 slab also.2 the FAist is around 6'1 so if you're shorter then reaching each bolt from a good stance maybe more difficult (this was part of edge's daughters thinking)
I'm 5'8". I guess that's significant.
Why would someone not remove the piton and place a bolt when bolting the route?
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jakedatc
Aug 14, 2004, 3:00 AM
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Because the piton is bomber and in a great horizontal crack there is no need for a bolt
i'm 5'7 and had no troubles.. edge's daughter is 5'3 that is significant but got around it fine(disclaimer.. she climbs .11-12 so 7+ should not ever be an issue)
i dunno hehe i think you just got psyched out thats all
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