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fluxus
Sep 15, 2004, 7:45 PM
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I noticed a few people mentioning having bad backs on another thread. I have one as well. I'm curious how wide spread lower back pain is among climbers and what the various causes are?
Mine appears to be caused by having very tight hip flexors and weakness of the abs and other muscles that support the spine. After a few weeks of stretching and working out the pain has gotten A LOT better, almost totally gone. what about everyone else? and how old are you? I'm 36 so clearly old age plays a role in my case.
Peace.
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jdouble
Sep 16, 2004, 9:49 PM
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Yep. The more I climb/surf/run/exercise, the better it feels. When taking rest periods of over a week things start to tighten up.
I am 33, had a microdiscetomy 2 years ago for a burst L5 disc. I went under the knife because I was unable to walk from severe siadic nerve issues. The burst disc was caused by lifting a suitcase while being super tired from climbing and snowboarding. Not sure how much abs had to do with my accident as they are/were rock solid, maybe too strong and the opposing muscles were not.
I am a firm believer that the whole thing comes down to proper body mechanics. Train yourself to move correctly and you will avoid many potential problems. If I had just bent my knees that day...........
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gds
Sep 16, 2004, 10:25 PM
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In reply to: I'm 36 so clearly old age plays a role in my case.
Well I'll be 60 in a few months so old age and 36 aren't connecting for me.
I've had back issues for the last 40 years. I spent many years in serious karate training and that is very tough on the back- more so than climbing. I've never had structural problems that would require surgery but have had lots of soft tissue injuries that resulted in temporary (though at times severe) pain and spasms.
I've always been able to "recover" in relatively short order and have not had any lasting effects. At (almost) 60 I am currently pain free.
Here is what has worked for me over the years:
1) Core strength work. Not just abs work. Lower back work (hyperextensions) as well as core twisting strength
2) stretching, non ballistic
3)ice (never heat) applied any time there is any twinge
4) find a good chiropracter, physical therapist, neuromuscular therapist or other such practitioner. I've used folks from several disciplines as I've lived in different areas. I found it was the preson and not the degree that worked. You need to find someone good who understands the mind set of an athlete. I use them for acute episodes of injury-never for long term treatment.
Good luck!
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jammer
Sep 16, 2004, 10:33 PM
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I'm in my 50's and I've found that when my tummy turns to jelly, the back pain get's worst. When you allow your stomach muscles to weaken, your back has to make up for it. I'd suggest you follow gds's suggestions. And ... thanks gds for your input.
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climbtothebeet
Sep 16, 2004, 10:34 PM
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i play the snare drum in my high school's marching band. I played teh bass drum last year. and i think that gave me permanent damage to my back. if u have never marched with a drum and drum caryer then u are definatly mising out on alot of pain and fun.
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benpullin
Sep 16, 2004, 11:01 PM
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I'm 29 years old and I just had a microdiscectomy surgery (Aug. 5th). I'm now about 99% pain free. I never had back pain per se but I had horrible sciatic/leg pain.
I agree that body mechanics and stretching are HUGE -- especially the hamstrings, hip flexors, and piriformis muscles. This goes double for us climbers. We are always externally rotating or legs while climbing. Also the effects of carrying heavy loads on our backs shouldn't be ignored.
While physical therapy was somewhat helpful in my case, the degree of my injury was too great to avoid surgery. For those out there who are looking at surgery, try everything you can, but don't think of surgery as a death sentence. I'm only 6 weeks post-op and am feeling stronger every day.
At this point, the hardest part for me is dealing with not being able to climb again just yet...
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gds
Sep 16, 2004, 11:11 PM
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[quote="benpullin"]
While physical therapy was somewhat helpful in my case, the degree of my injury was too great to avoid surgery. For those out there who are looking at surgery, try everything you can, but don't think of surgery as a death sentence. I'm only 6 weeks post-op and am feeling stronger every day.
quote]
First, let me say that I'm happy for you that your surgery appears to have been successful!
But let me add that my admittedly anecdotal experience with others back surgery definitely leaves me with the impression that:
1) it seems to make things worse as often as better
2) most injuries CAN be resolved by non invasive therapies and/or exersize.
I understand that in some cases surgery IS the way to go I personally have witnessed some very successfull surgeries. But I have also witnessed disasters.
Just remember that in our health care financing (non)system surgeons have a direct financial incentive to reccommend surgery. Ever have a car salesman reccommend that you buy a bike?
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benpullin
Sep 16, 2004, 11:32 PM
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In reply to: let me add that my admittedly anecdotal experience with others back surgery definitely leaves me with the impression that: 1) it seems to make things worse as often as better 2) most injuries CAN be resolved by non invasive therapies and/or exersize.
I totally agree that most back pain/sciatica problems can be solved via non-surgical methods. Any research into the subject will show you that greater than 90% of people who develop these problems will not need surgery. It is always better to heal with the least invasive treatment.
I do, however, have to say that most people look the possibility of back surgery and decide that it's horrible based upon anecdotal evidence rather than more concrete evidence. Looking at a number of scientific studies, etc. I've seen patient outcomes with anywhere from 75-95% success with microdiscectomy surgery. The technology and techniques of back surgery have evolved dramatically in the past several years and are rendering better outcomes.
I obviously don't know the specifics of those for whom the surgery has failed, and I am terribly sorry that it did. It's obvioulsy always better not to have surgery but my point is that back surgery shouldn't be looked at as the death sentence that it once was. Geez, they used to have to go through your abdomen!
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gds
Sep 16, 2004, 11:43 PM
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In reply to: Geez, they used to have to go through your abdomen!
I'd not argue with your figures. But even a 70% success rate is only ~ 2 out of 3.
As to the abdomen proceedure. Within the past two years I have two friends who after years of debilitating pain had a 12 hour procedure that was accomplished half through the back and half through the abdomen. Both procedures were successful-but it sure sounds scary.
I'm not against surgery qua surgery but do feel that it is often over prescribed.
And again it's great that it worked out well for you!
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jgill
Sep 17, 2004, 12:15 AM
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Strange as it seems, sciatica can also be caused by attempting to stretch the hamstrings. I know - that's what caused mine. These days I go easy on hamstring stretching. I expect there will be some disagreement on this, but one size does not fit all. 8^)
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fluxus
Sep 17, 2004, 12:27 AM
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So what about the role of climbing in your pain? it seems that people are mentioning interesting specifics but no one has yet mentioned climbing's role in their problems. For me climbing can be good and bad. Too much hyperextension or falling when bouldering and I'm a mess. But when it already hurts doing easy climbing can realy help loosen things up.
I don't need to go under the knife but for you guys who have, how is climbing afterwords?
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benpullin
Sep 17, 2004, 8:32 AM
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In my experience, in the early stage of my injury, climbing and running made the pain subside. This is due (I have been told) to the muscles warming up and loosening, relieving tension on the sciatic nerve.
Later, however, climbing very steep routes (as in the gym) caused the nerve to flare up, as the hamstrings and calves become more involved in pulling to stay on the wall. Bouldering or repetative impact can be very bad for you if you do have a disk injury and may even cause more damage.
My advice to anyone who develops lasting leg, hip, or back pain is to get checked by a doctor. I originally thought I had simply pulled a muscle and was floored when told I had a herniated disk...
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gds
Sep 17, 2004, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: Strange as it seems, sciatica can also be caused by attempting to stretch the hamstrings. I know - that's what caused mine. These days I go easy on hamstring stretching. I expect there will be some disagreement on this, but one size does not fit all. 8^)
Agreed!
However, this is often a result of ballistic stretching or strething as a warm up as opposed to stretching after being fully warmed up. Lots of new research is showing that there are benefits to stretching but that they are pretty much limited to those who stretch after a workout. Injury rate for those who stretch prior to a workout seem to be the same as for folks who don't stretch. And I'd guess that lots of these injuries are a result of trying to over stretch a non warmed up body.
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mtengaio
Sep 17, 2004, 10:23 PM
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I'm 33 and have a mild case of Scoliosis. I have a a full time desk job so that doesn't help either. My lower back used to bother me quite a bit until I started doing yoga earlier this year. What a difference it has made. I'm not a full-on yoga junky or anything, I only do it about 1-2 week. Yoga and strengthing my opposing muscles that aren't used in climbing have really helped keep me pain-free but most importantly injury-free.
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jdouble
Sep 17, 2004, 10:44 PM
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In reply to: I'm 29 years old and I just had a microdiscectomy surgery (Aug. 5th). I'm now about 99% pain free. I never had back pain per se but I had horrible sciatic/leg pain. At this point, the hardest part for me is dealing with not being able to climb again just yet...
Hey Ben! Great you are feeling better, see you in the gym soon. I hope our little talk at Prana that day eased your mind!
gds makes a great observation, I agree surgery is a last resort. In my case, as well as Ben's (from what I understood), we really had no choice. I could not walk, and Ben was heading in that direction. If you can deal with the pain, stay away from the knife. As Ben mentioned as well, the procedures are going through leaps and bounds in technology. Fake discs are coming............
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vivalargo
Sep 18, 2004, 12:03 AM
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Hey--
I didn't even know you went under the knife, Ben. Glad the rehab is going well.
I've had back problems for nearly 20 years. Much of it has to do with old injuries coupled with tight hamstrings, hip flexors, glutes, soaz, et al. Yoga and post-exercise stretching has helped a lot, or at any rate, keeps me going.
But when you have genuine disk problems, sometimes all the stretching and yoga and so forth only make things worse. Sometimes it's the knife, or suffering. My dad was a surgeon for 40 years and he always told me to avoid surgery at all costs. Sometimes you can't, and shouldn't.
JL
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cookie22
Sep 24, 2004, 4:31 AM
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Most peoples back pain is caused my a muscle imbalance, you can help ease the pain by stetching out your quads, hams, lower back, butt and abs. The pain is also cause because when we try to reach for a long move we arch out backs to give us that extra reach, putting it in a bad positing causing pain. Ways to work on that are go to physio, strengthen your lower back, or when you are warming up try to keep your back in a neutral position, while you climb.
I hope this works out for you guys, I have back probelms and have done all of these things, and find they work well. Remember to stretch everyday!
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fluxus
Sep 24, 2004, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: The pain is also cause because when we try to reach for a long move we arch out backs to give us that extra reach, putting it in a bad positing causing pain.
Extending the spine is by no means a "bad position," unless you are talking about people who already have pain that is related to extension.
Extension and hyper-extension are part of the range of motion of the spine and are essential movements in climbing. Trying to move without extension would severly retard one's movement and efficiency.
peace
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