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kolob
May 22, 2002, 4:01 AM
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A climber fell 150 ft. to his death today in Zion. He and his partner were trying to avoid bad weather and bail from Spaceshot. Early reports indicate that the knot on the end of his rope failed and he rapped off the end. Apparently, he was from England. I will post more details as they become available.
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jt512
May 22, 2002, 4:36 PM
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Quote:Early reports indicate that the knot on the end of his rope failed and he rapped off the end. Apparently, he was from England.
I'll take this opportunity to voice my concern about the use of a figure 8 knot as a stopper knot. Figure 8 knots can roll when weighted, possibly rolling off the end of the rope. A better stopper knot is to tie half a double fisherman's knot, and to tighten it well. Instead of rolling, this knot will tighten when weighted.
-Jay
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sharmagod
May 22, 2002, 4:44 PM
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To be honest I can't see how a figure 8 knot can come undone.
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sharmagod
May 22, 2002, 4:45 PM
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As to the climbers....
Rest in peace
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k9rocko
May 22, 2002, 4:46 PM
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I think the knot in question is not actually a figure 8, but rather half a figure 8. The same thing at the knot you tie before "following through"....
and yes, I can see how the top can roll over.... and WHAMMO! no knot remains..
Gabe
If the knot failed? How do they know there was even a knot in the first place.... could that have been the problem? Please provide more details if/and when you hear them..
[ This Message was edited by: k9rocko on 2002-05-22 09:47 ]
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dsafanda
May 22, 2002, 5:50 PM
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Having climbed Spaceshot last year, this post caught my eye.
However, if this is a very recent tragedy I'm not sure this is the place or time to post wild speculation as to the cause. In deference to the climbers friends and family who are grieving, don't you think everyone should at least wait for an official report to be issued before commenting. Seems a bit grim and premature at this point. Just my take.
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wigglestick
May 22, 2002, 6:10 PM
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I agree with dsafanda wait until all the details are available before you start monday morning quarterbacking. Here is a newspaper article about the accident.
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rocknpowda
May 22, 2002, 6:13 PM
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My condolences to the climber, his partner, and their families and friends. As climbers we should learn from incidents like this with compassion for for those affected and not be too critical. It doesn't do anyone any good.
[ This Message was edited by: rocknpowda on 2002-05-22 11:27 ]
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camhead
May 23, 2002, 4:27 PM
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I just read that this was the first first climbing fatality in Zion in twenty years. Too bad.
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woodse
May 23, 2002, 5:29 PM
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My deepest sympathy.......
woodsE
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mr_gondola
May 23, 2002, 7:06 PM
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The posting "half a figure eight", I'm pretty sure there is no such thing. When traced it is called a figure eight retrace, a figure eight is the know probably used for the repel. I don't see how it could roll if it is properly tightened and given a generous tail.
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rrrADAM
May 23, 2002, 7:16 PM
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I use a single tripple fisherman's knot on each end for my raps, it is reffered to as the "rap knot".
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iclimbtoo
May 23, 2002, 7:34 PM
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I'm with rrradam on that. however, right now, I am extremely sad. What a loss. I think rather than disscussing knots (like what was said above) we should learn from this and acknowledge the fact that things can go wrong. My deepest sympathies.
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superflyrugby
May 24, 2002, 4:13 PM
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I have a question since i am new to rock climbing...could you explain the fishermans knot and how to tie it.
thank you
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hunter
May 24, 2002, 4:58 PM
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Superfly,
Check out http://www.climbing.ie/knots.html for a discription of common knots and how they are tied. The link does not cover the tripple fishermans knot but it's just an extra loop around the line compared to a double.
My sympathies to all who are affected by this accident.
Hunter
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verticallaw
May 24, 2002, 4:59 PM
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Its always sad in a sport like this to loose a fellow climber. My thoughts are with their families especially their children (if they had any). Make sure that all of you climbing check and double check everything. The only thing stopping us from cratering is our ability to see a problem and correct it.
Mike
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jt512
May 24, 2002, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
When traced it is called a figure eight retrace, a figure eight is the kno[t] probably used for the repel. I don't see how it could roll if it is properly tightened and given a generous tail.
First of all, I was talking about the stopper knots, not the knot used to join the two ropes. Secondly, an unbacked-up retraced figure-8 is about the worst possible choice to join two rappel ropes. It has a very low failure strength and absolutely must be backed up with double fisherman's knots on each side.
-Jay
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duracellbunny
May 24, 2002, 7:56 PM
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My deepest sympathy.......
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conkdg
May 28, 2002, 5:58 AM
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Hello,
My deepest sympathy for this climber and his friends and family.
I was on the shuttle bus in Zion when the climber fell, and heard he had a broken neck. I was not sure if he had died or not, but from atop the first pitch of Prodigal Son my partner and I saw the ambulance pull away slowly.
We were saddened by what we saw, and even though neither of us knew this man, the death of any fellow climber is disheartening.
We later heard the climber may have fell when climbing the 5.? first pitches to get to the bottom of the climb... I heard nothing about a retreat or rapelling accident. The weather was fine and did not change.
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jt512
May 28, 2002, 5:15 PM
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I wrote:
Quote:
Secondly, an unbacked-up retraced figure-8 is about the worst possible choice to join two rappel ropes. It has a very low failure strength and absolutely must be backed up with double fisherman's knots on each side.
Apparently, I was wrong about this. The dangerous version of the figure-8, which should not be used for joining two ropes for rappelling, is the figure-8 tied with the free ends of the ropes running together (similar to an overhand knot). An "overhand figure-8" will roll repeatedly under relatively low loads.
-Jay
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ephemeral
May 30, 2002, 2:19 PM
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I don't get it....
When I rappel, I am always aware of the end of the rope. I always tie multiple stopper knots long prior to the end of the rope.
It's scary to me that people go off the end
That's what nightmares are about
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holygecko
May 30, 2002, 2:29 PM
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That is too bad about the climber it really sux when one of our own dies doing something we all love. it also makes you question your own life and it is times like these that remind me to live my life the way I want and do all the things I want to because who knows when I am gonna go and I would like to go happy even if I don't live long,
P.S. no smiles this time tom
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climberwill
May 30, 2002, 4:14 PM
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It was my friend who died in the accident. Though I was not with him when it happened, I know enough of the details to impart some knowledge that will hopefully overt an accident like this from happening again.
During previous rappels, the climber who died was using the figure of eight to connect the two ropes. The final rappel was 200+ feet, and with rope stretch, just reached a rock step not high of the ground. It is unlikely he was using any other knot at the time of the accident. Due to the length of the rappel he likely tied the knot with short tails. As I was informed, the UAII approves the figure of eight knot for tying ropes together with at least 1 foot of tails (on both ropes). Testing after the accident showed that with 6 inches or less of tail it was possible to cause the knot to fail repeatedly. As the knot is weighted, it commonly will rollback on itself, causing the tails to be pulled in. It only takes one tail to be pulled in for the knot to fail.
When he weighted the ropes, the knot failed.
The man who died was a wonderful, beautiful person. Losing him is a loss to all that knew him and all that would have met him. I use the figure of eight knot for rappelling commonly (as it is less likely than the double fisherman to get stuck in cracks). Though I tie backups on the tails, I doubt if I would have disapproved of the knot that failed. That scares me more than anything.
This is new knowledge for some of us and reaffirming knowledge to others, but I hope we all share it with our friends, partners and fellow climbers so that we don’t have to write about it like this again.
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melonhead
May 30, 2002, 4:34 PM
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Ya, I was there headed up on Moonlight when it happened. I hate those curve balls life throws at you.
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jman
May 30, 2002, 5:24 PM
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My deepest condolences for this climber and his friends and family. It's always sad when something terrible happens to a fellow climber, in the sport that we love. Guess it's another reminder about the dangers and risks involved in this sport.
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