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redzit
May 23, 2002, 2:50 AM
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I'm new to trad. of cource i'm scarred stiff of falling. due to this, the newbie tendancy is to place a piece every two feet or three feet.
What is practical distance between pro?
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joemor
May 23, 2002, 3:17 AM
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depends on the route but i gues a general rule that would be safe is place bout a body lenght appart, but most run it out more than that unless its a crux move.
joe
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tenn_dawg
May 23, 2002, 3:34 AM
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I've got a little advise for what it's worth.
I have had this very same problem, and even to this day, if i'm getting freaked out on a climb, i'll spend way too much time placing pro and without a doubt will get the "Damn man, are you aiding this thing?" comment from my partner.
Here's what helps me. I try to look at the climb as objectively as I can, and place pro as often as is nessessary in order to be safe. "Safe" can mean different things to different climbers, but for me, if there is a possibility of groundfall, or hitting a ledge, I'll sew it up a little more. There's nothing wrong with having pieces 2 feet apart if they're all that's guarding you from groundfall.
If there's nothing to hit, and the climb is steep, then try to focus on doing a fixed number of moves between pieces. Slot a nut, and say to yourself, "i'm going to do 5 moves before my next piece, and that's safe, so here I go."
This may seem simple to yall, but it really has done wonders for me. Trad climbing is much more enjoyable to me if I can focus less on pro, and more on climbing. Just my 2 cents I guess.
Travis
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dimeedge
May 23, 2002, 4:26 AM
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Place pro when it is easy to place. I have noticed that sometimes I get a bit run out and spend time trying to place pro in a spot that is difficult to be hanging around fiddling with gear, and two moves past the piece found a really good rest where a bomber placement can be found. One of the best times I had climbing I wasnt too worried about the gear... I climbed, and when I notices I was pretty far from my last piece I would plug another one in. Then I came on the crux section where the crack got shallow, so before I moved into that, I placed another bomber piece. The climb was great because the pro was protection, not obscession.
another idea to add to your bag of tricks.
Chad
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crackaddict
May 23, 2002, 4:48 AM
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I agree with the above statements.
Place it when its good and you are in a better spot.
Protect yourself from ledges well.
Body lengths are good.
But I remember when I first started trad. I just told myself that if it starts getting bad that I was going to sew it up!
But after a lot of climbing confidence and tecnique took over and I did'nt have to think that way. Plus carrying all that extra gear was tough. Now I will tend to run it out a little more if its good. Esspecially on longer routes.
What I do is put enough pieces in to keep yourself and you partner safe.
Don't want any ground pounders!
And on traverses place a good amount of pro to keep the second safe.
What I do is try to spot out the cruxes before I get on it. Then I plan to save some pieces that I will need for that spot. If I can get some good pieces in before I go for it. It will usually ease my mind a bit.
Good Luck!
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-05-22 21:50 ]
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lightboi
May 23, 2002, 4:51 AM
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On a good day I place pro when I realize that I need too. About every 8-12 feet. Ledges break up my rythym so I place gear.
On bad days I empty my rack in the first 40 feet and have to run it out swearing that I just need to buy more gear.
Someday I will be stuck at the bottom of some sustained long pitch and my gear loops will snap as to all the extra weight and I will have to run the sucker out with just a few old school knotted slings.
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stevematthys
May 23, 2002, 5:58 AM
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depends on how i feel. i feel solid with my climbing i place about every 7-8 feet, but if the climbing is sketchy then i place more like every 5 feet
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holygecko
May 23, 2002, 11:39 AM
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Place it as ofetn as you feel is ness. bro be safe not stupid.
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traddaddy
May 23, 2002, 12:39 PM
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Climb to the rests and plug in gear...unless you're sketchin'. Then do what is nessecary.
Trad (somedays a seamstress, cuz I'll sew it up) daddy
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clymberboy
May 23, 2002, 1:20 PM
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in a nut shell . . .
"Place it when its good and you are in a better spot.
Protect yourself from ledges well.
Body lengths are good.
Climb to the rests and plug in gear...unless you're sketchin'. Then do what is nessecary."
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radistrad
May 23, 2002, 2:25 PM
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How often do I place gear?
I love this question...
MY advice like most others is to place it about every body length. With a max run out of about 20' and ideal placements 10' apart.
I like to place my gear as high as possible and I like to climb so my feet are atleast at or above my last clip point. I say clip point because ,my clip point and my gear placement can be two feet apart, think of it like this: I place a cam/nut then clip a shoulder length sling onto it will all the appropriate 'biners. So my clip point is more than 2 feet below the head of cam.
I often will try and climb above the piece all togeather, say several feet above my placement (not clip point).
It is important to protect your self from falling onto any ledges and protect smartly.
Also be sure your belayer is tied into the ground or an anchor, I saw two belayer ripped from the ground last weekend when their leader took a fall, the climbers both fell and additional 10 to 12 feet because of this.
Next time you sketch ask your self out loud "do I trust my gear", the answer to this should be yes...
Hope my spray helps..
[ This Message was edited by: radistrad on 2002-05-23 07:31 ]
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crux_clipper
May 25, 2002, 5:19 AM
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I noticed on a recent climb, i placed 4 peices of pro in about 2 meters, cos i was getting freeked.
I now know that i was just wasting energy by placing so often.
On the other hand, you place as often as feel comfortable.
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timpanogos
May 27, 2002, 4:54 AM
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ooze - the formums search is currently disabled
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benfieldj
May 27, 2002, 2:36 PM
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It's a difficult question that depends on the situation and the route. I never pass up a good placement so I tend to sew up a route. Don't get sucked into trying to make bad placements and burning out your arms, I think we've all done this and it is scary. Always put an extender on every piece and make sure you have a bomber non-directional piece at the bottom, no matter how much gear you use it does no good if it doesn't stay in.
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sparky
May 31, 2002, 4:03 AM
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I think I place different than most people. When the climbing is sketchy I climb until i am super comfy then place, then climb until i am super comfy and place, when the climbing is hard i concentrate on climbing not placing, but the placements i put in are bombers.
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radd
Jun 8, 2002, 2:45 PM
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Try to view the distance to the nest piece as a bouler problem. First realize objective dangers such as slabs below you or big ledges to hit.
Second, as it was said before look ahead for a possible rest or a good stem were you can hang out to place gear and not get tired. Then once you kind of map out where you are going to get your next peice and have decided it is safe to go that far CONCENTRATE ON THE CLIMBING. If you have just figured out that the next 12 feet of climbing will be safely protected by your last piece and you see that good stem rest above you go for it. This way you can climb without worrying is it time to place gear or looking down all the time to see where that last piece is.
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pwsk
Jun 12, 2002, 2:20 PM
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Everything said is super-useful and I do it myself, especially the part of remembering that we do this for the climbing...
Another view is to try and place the gear so that in the event of a fall, the fall-factor will be kept below 1.(Which is high relative to a max of 2). Have a look at Petzl's website - they have a great explanation of fall-factors. A rule I follow is to always place the first piece while standing on the belay ledge(at least then keeping the fall-factor below 2).
Please be safe and ENJOY
L.O.D.
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camsticker
Jun 12, 2002, 5:04 PM
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I agree with the body length...although pro placement is really unique to the route. You can have some routes that you may zip up and others that you are only able to place pro thin. If you are just starting out I suggest that you pick routes that you can zip up and get a feel for placing pro. Then you can move on to the routes that pro placement is more of an art than a science! :-)
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bearshaman
Jun 15, 2002, 10:09 PM
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I am new to trad leading (leading 5.8 currently) and find that at the begining of a climb i ted to sew it up, but about half way through the climb when my fear of decking if i fall has passed away and i am a little more warmed up i tend to try to only place when i am in a good rest, or start to think instead of climb
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apollodorus
Jun 15, 2002, 10:40 PM
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A great example for the this question is Reed's Direct in Yosemite Valley. The crack has bomber hand and foot jams all the way up, but the crack leans to the right so you are on your hands the whole way. If you stop alot to place pro, you will burn out and either fall or have to hang on a piece to rest. This was the way I did it. WRONG! The best thing for that climb is to place fewer pieces and trust the great holds.
I completely agree with other posters that you should evaluate what sort of fall you are facing. If you are going to hit a ledge, you need to put in more pro. If it is a clean fall, then fewer pieces might make sense.
As a climber who is new to trad, you should realize that climbing BF (before falling) is very different from AF (after falling). Once you take a whipper, you will not be anywhere near as scared about leading. It's the unknown of the Big Fall that creates anxiety. Once you fall and see that it's no big deal (as long as you don't hit a ledge, or something), you will be much more confident about leading.
Falling seems really scary, but a clean fall is actually pretty tame. A karate-like OOMPH of your torso muscles just as you go tight is good. The stretch of a climbing rope is designed to make a fall rather easy to take.
I've fallen a few times, and recently I took an intentional 30'-40' whipper while cleaning an aid traverse so I would not have to leave a piton and lower off of it. I clipped into it, hit it twice and took the ride. And that was 2700 feet up El Cap.
You should be aware of where your rope is, though. On a straight, vertical line, it an be down below you; over your leg is good if the route traverses a bit. If it's under your leg when you fall, it can spin you upside down. Also, as you fall, you should try to stay close to the rock, so you don't slam into it when the rope comes tight. I fell once, and pushed off away from the rock to keep the rope clear. When the rope grabbed me, I slammed back into the rock, hitting my knee. I wasn't hurt, but I learned that lesson the hard way.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-06-15 15:50 ]
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dustinap
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Jun 16, 2002, 1:07 AM
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It all depends, may be one piece in 50 meters, it may be 1 piece every 5 feet. If it's not to sketchy I try to run it out, unless I can tell there won't be pro available for awhile. I always try to place gear so I won't be falling onto my belay station though!
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punk
Jun 16, 2002, 2:41 PM
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My Mandatory method is:
I will place a multi directional piece immediately (within 2 feet) after the belay (to void fall factor 2), and within 6 feet from there (to reduce the factor to 1 or below). After the second piece it will be open to when its convenient to place a piece. Also I will place it before the cruxes of the route (as close to the cruxes as I can) and immediately after that. with all I will pay very close attention to the rope drag and extending the pieces accordingly.
climb safe
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phil_nev
Jun 16, 2002, 4:28 PM
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If the gear is good, feel free to run it out for a bit, if you not sure, back it up.... As someone said earlier,
"IF UNSURE... SEW IT UP"..............
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