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itakealot
Dec 3, 2004, 7:22 AM
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I see it everytime I go to the gym, and now I keep my mouth shut, but tonight my climbing partner so wants her other friend to climb outside, so we put her on the auto belay to teach her about lead climbing. That was a disaster in itself, but as we would yell beta about technique, like the basic, "the hold is by your knee," sorta stuff, she came down and said that since she had been climbing for a year in the gym that she felt her technique was good enough. We will have to slowly deconstruct her on her first outdoor trip, unfortunately.
But to all Gym climbers who have learned in the gym from other gym climbers who have learned in the gym by only taking an introductory class, a year of gym climbing does not make an expert, even you can climb moderate grades on TR.
If you want to learn go to the lead climbing area of the gym and watch atleast one climber who can climb 11d and above. Pay attention to their:
feet (toes)
Hips (up and in)
arms (when climbing static-straight)
My favorite line from a gym climber was "I could do that climb in 1 minute," and when I told them that was great, but no necessarily going to improve their technique, that person was soooo deflated. Then I suggested she needs to climb with someone atleast a number grade above her abilty, outside of course.
Good or bad, depending on how you look at it, atleast in Gym they don't teach people how to place pro. Imagine of all these Gym climbers started showing up to trad areas.
Sorry for ranting.
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lazyjammin
Dec 3, 2004, 7:33 AM
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I agree, after climbing in the gym for even a few weeks and then going outdoors I have lost technique. Ive noticed that I can lead pretty hard outdoors, but I expend much more effort than people who climb regularly outdoors. At the same time though I started in the gym, and though I climb outdoors all the time, I doubt I would be as good as I am now without the strength I have gained in the gym. Though training in the gym feels not as worthwhile anymore.
Another con to the gym is that it does not prepare you for running it out, since they make you clip every four feet. Its taking me a while to become comfortable running it out.
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climber15
Dec 3, 2004, 8:50 AM
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Mydad and I were talking about this the other day. In his generation you never commited to moves you couldnt reverse, and every thing was done staticly, so as to maintain a good stance and a comforitable position. I have grown up in the dynamic era, were dynos are frequent and irraversable moves are often performed, with only the consequence of a four foot fall (and it beeing a nuciance to get back to the crux again). I beleive the gym fullfilles its purpose, to get stronger and climb harder. Not to run it out, or place gear, or get in comforitable positions. I agree that one should watch a climber that can climb harder, but Ive seen climbers that are just hella strong, and half campus everything. Their good because thier strong, but they havent the experience or technique to take it outside and get out of hairy situations. I know this through personal experience when I as a gym rat went outside for the first time 2 years ago. Ive learned alot since then.
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maxdacat
Dec 3, 2004, 10:05 AM
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In reply to: my climbing partner so wants her other friend to climb outside, so we put her on the auto belay to teach her about lead climbing. That was a disaster in itself Sorry for ranting.
however i think the sooner you get outside to climb the better....ideally one would never have to set foot inside a gym as they are horrible sterile places that can never compete with the outdoors but are a necessary evil for us weekend warriors.
just because your partner doesn't have great technique indoors doesn't mean she shouldn't get outside....i would want to nurture that desire as it means she might even be a proper climber not some jumped-up gym rat :lol:
i don't think gym leading is going to prepare her for outdoor leading as she seems to think....best to go outdoors and start from scratch and let her talents develop naturally....she might feel happy being a "career" second, or might want to jump on the sharp end ASAP.
If i had to make one recommendation it would be a minimum of 6 months solid outdoor seconding experience (pulling out pro, taking down anchors etc) and don't worry about dummy leads etc just put 'em straight on something well within their ability.
Good luck to her!
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pylonhead
Dec 3, 2004, 10:18 AM
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How exactly does gym climbing foster these bad techniques? Everything you mention will make you a better climber on plastic as well as rock, and when you look at good climbers in the gym they've got their hips up and in, they're toeing down on their feet, their arms are straight.
You had a point in there somewhere, but instead chose to start yet another gym bashing thread. Yawn.
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graniteplanet
Dec 3, 2004, 2:12 PM
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Actually the gym does foster bad technique. A lot of top climbers use them of course because they are a great tool for raw power and sport-specific strength, but it does foster bad technique. I belive the reason for this lies in the nature of artificial holds themselves. Outdoors if you have a side pull as an opening hand hold then chances are it might be later used for a heel hook. Inside you can stand on top of 90% of the holds set as side pulls. Also, outdoors there is frequently a larger number of options for feet, especially on routes, allowing good climbers to use a lage number of possible body positions in the best way. The focus becomes more on the feet and this is good technique. Would say more but I'm late for class.
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tradman
Dec 3, 2004, 2:43 PM
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Okay, so let me get this straight:
You think that having lots and lots of options to plonk your feet down any old how fosters good technique? And having to use highly specific and accurate footwork for the requirements of a particular problem is bad technique?
You have actually been rock climbing haven't you?
:?
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j_ung
Dec 3, 2004, 2:59 PM
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Not again...
If I post that crack climbing fosters bad face climbing technique or that slab climbing fosters poor steep technique, my point will only be as valid as this thread.
A gym is different than outside, granted, but it doesn't foster poor technique. It fosters some techniques that might be better suited to indoors, to be sure, but it can also be the single most powerful training tool (shy of consistent outdoor climbing) available... if you know how to use it correctly.
Climbing is climbing. There are only different mediums. Everything else is in your head in one form or another.
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bad_lil_kitty
Dec 3, 2004, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The Gym Fosters Poor Technique Which is why 99% of the top climbers in the world use gyms to train in. You obviously know more than them, right? Why don't you explain to us all how it is that they spend so much time indoors but are still mysteriously able to send grades outdoors that you can't even imagine touching? Come on, put up or shut up.
Agreed, Tradman... Indoors is great for training and also for some of us gals who don't want to climb late into the evenings alone...
And agree w/ Jay - climbing is climbing and they are in and of themselves two completely different environments...
If you have fun, do it.
Learning to lead inside a gym (e.g. a class) is perfect also for those who don't want to weigh down a group (e.g. outdoors day trip - when you work all week the last thing you want to do is hold EVERYONE up)... Not sure, if autobelay-learning-to-lead is a good method... .02
I do better outdoors bouldering then indoors but who cares... and I liked my crack climbing experience, but the ONLY ONE crack in my gym is just that... it's just one.. not the same as the variety you will find in nature...
blah blah blah
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bad_lil_kitty
Dec 3, 2004, 3:13 PM
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oh and re: technique - it's really the person.... kinda like, it's not the computer that is failing... it's the kid operating it ;)
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itakealot
Dec 3, 2004, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: But to all Gym climbers who have learned in the gym from other gym climbers who have learned in the gym by only taking an introductory class, a year of gym climbing does not make an expert, even you can climb moderate grades on TR. In reply to: In reply to: The Gym Fosters Poor Technique Which is why 99% of the top climbers in the world use gyms to train in. You obviously know more than them, right? Why don't you explain to us all how it is that they spend so much time indoors but are still mysteriously able to send grades outdoors that you can't even imagine touching? Come on, put up or shut up.
Of course a world class climber knows how to train, whereas the above described does not.
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tradman
Dec 3, 2004, 3:31 PM
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Oh, I see.
You're saying that people who have poor technique and need to improve shouldn't train - because they don't know how to, is that it?
That's much clearer.
:lol:
Keep going, you're getting sillier.
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markc
Dec 3, 2004, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: oh and re: technique - it's really the person.... kinda like, it's not the computer that is failing... it's the kid operating it ;)
My thought is that gyms spawn new climbers, and new climbers have bad technique. Manufactured holds, primarily flat wall surfaces, and paint-by-numbers routes may poorly prepare indoor climbers for outdoor climbing, but they are better than nothing. I don't know why the OP things someone needs any climbing technique to transition to real rock, anyway. She'll go outside, develop new skills, etc. Recommend starting a couple of grades lower than in the gym to get a feeling for real rock and see how she does. I'd worry more about focusing on proper anchoring and safety issues rather than technique. That's what's probably most lacking in strictly gym climbers.
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graniteplanet
Dec 4, 2004, 5:19 PM
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tradman wrote:
In reply to: Okay, so let me get this straight: You think that having lots and lots of options to plonk your feet down any old how fosters good technique? And having to use highly specific and accurate footwork for the requirements of a particular problem is bad technique? You have actually been rock climbing haven't you?
Yeah, I've been climbing a few times. What I was implying in my statement was that outdoors you have a number of different options for feet, not that there are giant ledges to hop up on as you seem to think I implied. Having many footholds, invariably all small, teaches you to use them in the best way possible for you. You learn what works and what doesn't because things are not laid out for you, you have to think about were you are going to put your feet and why that is best. Inside things are laid out for you, setters want you to move in a certain way and most new climbers act on the principle of "see small hold, put foot there" without thinking about why that foot goes there and if it would be best to put it there. Also, some of those top climbers you mentioned that train on plastic freely admit that outdoors requires more technique, Nels Rosassan for example. Most top climbers use the gym to train sport-specific strength, as I said already, which helps them send amazingly hard grades. Just because someone trains on plastic, and there is nothing at all wrong with that, it is a great tool, and sends hard grades does not mean that training on plastic is the secret to good technique, if so then hitting the campus board is the best technique training out there.
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allan_thomson
Dec 4, 2004, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: I agree, after climbing in the gym for even a few weeks and then going outdoors I have lost technique. Ive noticed that I can lead pretty hard outdoors, but I expend much more effort than people who climb regularly outdoors. At the same time though I started in the gym, and though I climb outdoors all the time, I doubt I would be as good as I am now without the strength I have gained in the gym. Though training in the gym feels not as worthwhile anymore. Another con to the gym is that it does not prepare you for running it out, since they make you clip every four feet. Its taking me a while to become comfortable running it out.
Have you tried skipping every other clip in the gym? Someone I know says they do this to help them get that feeling of running it out in the gym.
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angry
Dec 4, 2004, 5:32 PM
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Gyms are wonderful places for intermediate to advanced climbers to get stronger and more confident.
Most of the people I've seen who've learned at a gym are really in for a long and frustrating battle once they do go outside.
Hit real rock as much as possible and use the gym to improve strength and power. I realize that some people only climb inside, this idea is to me, mind boggling.
Who cares, it's only a gym right?
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tradman
Dec 6, 2004, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: if so then hitting the campus board is the best technique training out there.
Ah, now see, there's your mistake right there: the campus board isn't a technique training tool, it's for strength training.
"Technique" is something that's quite different from strength. It's quite complicated, and I really don't have time to explain it to you. As a starting point though, your example of having several small footholds to choose from is a good example: choosing the easiest option is not all there is to good technique. If you actually want to get better at climbing, you'll need to practice moving in and from less-than-ideal positions.
Doing easy stuff doesn't lead to improvement. It's quite possible that you just want to climb stuff which has lots of ideally-placed holds for you to choose between, but the rest of us are probably looking for something a bit more challenging and need to practice some.
:roll:
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kahuna3602
Dec 6, 2004, 1:39 PM
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One thing missing from this thread. The quality of the technique required is directly proportional to the quality of the routesetter who set it. I've been lucky enough to see some of the countries best routesetters in action and I guarantee if they don't want you to use a hold exactly as they intended, you won't. I've seen them shave foot chips, fill in holes and place them so there is no other way to use it. I think its actually pretty impressive. I'm glad to have the oportunity to learn from them.
Gym climbing will never be the same as rock climbing but it's a great tool for climbing better.
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punk_rocker333
Dec 6, 2004, 1:45 PM
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I'm glad that I learned outdoors. I know what to expect. Although, I agree that the gym is great for strength and endurance training. I recently climbed a 76 foot-high wall, that's the highest I've ever climbed and it was a great work out.
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graniteplanet
Dec 6, 2004, 3:27 PM
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Tradman, it seems like you really bent on undermining my opinion not because it has no base but because it is different from yours. You are assuming a great deal from my posts such as that I In reply to: you just want to climb stuff which has lots of ideally-placed holds for you to choose between, but the rest of us are probably looking for something a bit more challenging and need to practice some.
This is a decent topic to discuss, better than another shoe thread at least, fshizzle and kahuna3602 both make excellent points and I have to admit that really good setters can challange one's technique, I've had the experience of encountering such setters myself. In saying that the gym fosters bad technique I am only stating that from my personal experience. Moving from the gym to outside I found I was not able to power through many problems, I had to use my feet much more and break the habits climbing in a gym had taught me. I wasn't able to campus nearly as much and I found myself using heel-hooks in many situations that the gym couldn't mimic. Anyway, sorry for the long post, keep the good points comming, on both sides.
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outdoorsie
Dec 6, 2004, 5:35 PM
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Ok, so this has very little to do with the recent posts in this thread, but the overall topic reminded me of some thoughts I had this fall. Last summer, I moved from Indiana to Colorado, spent a month on the road, and did not climb indoors for 4+ months (but bouldered or climbed outside 4-5 days a week!). It was an *awesome* summer. Needless to say, my onsight skill went way up on real rock this summer. Like, from barely 9 to early 11s.
But the crazy thing is, going back into the gym this fall was humiliating. I was overgripping, using horendous footwork, completely unable to read a sequence (the route was TAPED! What's wrong with me??), it was horrible! It's taken a couple of months now, but I'm almost back into the same level of gym climbing that I was last spring. The stupid part is, I discovered on a trip out to Shelf a few weeks ago, that my outdoor climbing is now seriously suffering! My ability to read routes outdoors, to find rests and crack-climbing techniques have all seriously degraded!!
So, here's my thought, climbing indoors is good for climbing indoors. You can develop technique that will get you up all the hard routes in the gym, but I don't think that technique transfers well outside. Climbing outside, similarly, does not transfer well back into the gym. It almost feels like two different sports to me now. Crazy.
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graniteplanet
Dec 6, 2004, 7:32 PM
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Actually, you haven't done any real debating. The only point you've really made can be summed up as saying "well all the pros do it so it must be good". You have picked apart other people's arguements by taking their comments out of context and then added in little comments of your own that seem to try to make them sound stupid. i.e.
In reply to: You have actually been rock climbing haven't you? In reply to: That's much clearer. Keep going, you're getting sillier.
I don't think I'm taking these comments out of context in that I'm not twisting your words around, talking down to people really just stands on its own. I honestly don't care in the least if you don't agree with what I believe. If you do winde up making a few good points and showing me that I might be wrong, as outdoorsie and j_ung are doing, then fine I'm better off for better understanding the other side. I just don't like a superior attitude talking down to people he or she doesn't know. Discusion is great when it leads somewhere, when you can admit that the other side has valid points and can keep an open mind to them, you have a decent chance of learning something then. Would you throw around the comments and insults if we were having this discussion around a dinner table? Sorry man, I just appreciate a little politness and respect in discussions.
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thinksinpictures
Dec 6, 2004, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: Actually, you haven't done any real debating.
Alright then, here's something for you to "debate." You said:
In reply to: ...some of those top climbers you mentioned that train on plastic freely admit that outdoors requires more technique...
I think almost anyone will acknowledge that climbing outdoors requires more finely honed technique than climbing indoors. Most of the arguments in this thread seem to be based on this premise. It is, however, a fallacy to take this to mean that climbing indoors fosters poor technique, which it does not necessarily.
The only instance in which I can see a strong argument for indoor climbing leading to poor technique is if someone were to go outside for the first time and somehow expect each hold to be immediately apparent. I don't see why any thinking person who has ever seen a rock would make such an assumption, but let's give it some credence anyway. Even under that condition, there would still be no problem after the outdoor newbie had a couple moves pointed out to him/her.
In this case, you might make an argument that indoor climbing fosters poor onsight technique, or poor routefinding skills, but certainly not poor overall climbing technique.
Overall though, I think that kahuna makes one of the best points in this thread so far:
In reply to: The quality of the technique required is directly proportional to the quality of the routesetter who set it.
If you've ever climbed a route set by a stellar routesetter, you might back off your argument a bit. When I climbed at the BRG in Boston, Tim Kemple was setting there, and I found many of his problems to require as much problem solving and as finely honed technique as similarly graded problems at Pawtuckaway or the Woods (though P-Tuck is a better example). Perhaps your gym's routesetter needs improvement?
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