The safest technique is the safe one that the belayer can do unconsciously, consistently, without thought.
I'm ok with my partners belaying me with whatever technique they are most comfortable with (provided it is basically safe). I'd rather they use one that they are secure in than one that they don't really know.

I know what you mean by this statement of doing something unconciously...But I wouldn't want my belayer doing anything unconciously or 'in their sleep.'

So what do you think? Is one of these methods safer than the others and why? Is there another method than these three which is even safer?

The safest technique is the safe one that the belayer can do unconsciously, consistently, without thought.

activly assessing my need and adjusting their belay to meet them

I will say that I think this is dead wrong. my belayer sure as hell better be activly assessing my need and adjusting their belay to meet them. I hate getting an "unconscious belay."

The safest technique is the safe one that the belayer can do unconsciously, consistently, without thought.

In response to your questions, I currently I do most of my belaying standing on the ground with an atc for toprope climbers.

However, I also belay with a grigri, for leaders

, and second.

I would be quite interested to know which technique is safest for each of these situations.

Thanks!
Nolan

A few of us here in AZ went out for a bouldering session last Saturday and then decided to top-rope a few taller routes out at Queen Creek. We did not have any harnesses, belay devices or webbing with us. So, tying into the rope with a bowline-on-a-coil is no problem, but how to best belay? Body belays are tried and true, but lowering someone with a body belay sucks--big time.

So, using ourselves as guinea pigs, we decided to experiment with new alternative belay methods. And, Lo and Behold! We found something that works really well.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45382

A foot belay. Think of a body belay, with the rope running through the arch of one of your feet, instead of around your waist. Apparantly, this basic technique has been used by riggers to lower heavy items from beams for some time. Here is a close-up photo:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45383

My initial concern was that it might be hard to keep my weight centered over the foot with the rope running under it, but that turned out to not be the case. Also, I thought the rope might try to work its way out from the middle of my foot. This also turned out to not be a problem--probably because both the heel and toe areas of most shoes are wider than the arch, so the rope tends to stay there. We found this belay method to be.....

1) Very easy to use--to hold and lower the climber
2) Very easy to learn
3) Very safe
4) Very comfortable for the belayer

Curt

Dont let you brake hand off the rope, and I can't see a way of fucking it up.

I am sure one of the best ways to get banned from this site is to post to a thread found in the deadhorse graveyard. If not it probably should be; i'll accept my fate either way.

After reading a couple hundred posts especially the pinch and slide vs. the bus method I am well versed in the basic debate and am not wanting to open up that flame war.

What I'd appreciate is to have your opinion on a method that doesn't seem to have been debated but is the one I was taught and seen used a lot, especially good veterans I watch. Basically, they just loosen their grip on the brake rope and slide/shuffle their hand towards the device. It is also the way that peztil says to use their grigri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSVchbjVKLE
though my question pertains to using this method to an atc.

To mitigate the impression I'm trolling or trying to start the debate of alternate belay techniques, please just tell me if this is totally wrong way to do it. If so, yes, I have 1k posts on the other ways to do it and will figure the alternate way of doing it on my own.

The belayer thus always knows whether the climber is moving or not. ... [snip]
- With the ATC, the brake hand always needs to move down immediately - most frequent mistake.
- The thumb encloses the rope.
- When returning the brake hand to the original position, it should have the form of a closed tube.
- A tube full of nerve cells is always ready to grasp the rope.
- This only works if the sensor arm is always ready, holding the "upper" rope.
- The sensor rope reports the imminent danger to the brake hand more quickly than the rope with its inertia in the belay device.
- Why can we hold the rope so loosely in this exercise ? Ropes are stretchy, but the stretch is slow compared to our reflexes. Thus it does not matter whether the brake hand is sliding along the rope or stationary, it is always ready to grab.

I am also in the "loosen grip to slide" camp.

Some references (in German), both written by Walter Britschgi -> http://gaswerk.kletterzentrum.com/...loads/sturzinfos.pdf. This is mostly about teaching falling technique in a gym environment, but also includes the author's latest insights on belay safety. For his analysis of different belay devices, see http://stud.paedak-krems.ac.at/...mann/Begreiflich.pdf .

What he points out is the importance of our reflexes - use the left hand (sensor arm) at all times to FEEL the rope and thus what the climber is doing, so the brake hand can do its job without a constant death grip. See page 5, image caption, can blind people belay too ?


Pinch and slide is dangerous if you lift your brake hand to do it - the ATC does not provide enough stopping power in this position.

Better to just slide the brake hand up rope in a down position. If you are fast enough the inertia of the rope will help.

The guy sounds like a crackpot.

What I'd appreciate is to have your opinion on a method that doesn't seem to have been debated but is the one I was taught and seen used a lot, especially good veterans I watch. Basically, they just loosen their grip on the brake rope and slide/shuffle their hand towards the device.

The brake hand should always be firmly on the rope. Both the pinch-and-slide method and the so-called BUS method allow this.

Jay

Walter Britschgi is in charge of safety for a large gym, so he just might have enough experience and sample size to have a clue. My translation may not be the best, but should convey the gist of what he is writing.

Jay, that is just not true.

It is with the BUS system because you essentially have two brake hands and one is always firmly gripping the rope.

With P&S on the other hand, the brake hand is loosened in order to slide towards the belay device and the only hand with a firm grip on the rope is the guide hand which would have to open it's grip inorder to release the climber side of the rope before being capable of acting as a brake hand.

The designated brake hand during the "slide" phase of the P&S has no firmer a grip on the rope than does the brake hand using the slide/shuffle method.

In that case it is true.


You don't know what you're talking about. The purpose of pinching the brake side of the rope momentarily with the guide hand is precisely so that you can slide the brake hand down the rope with a firm grip.


Wrong. If you used the pinch and slide method correctly, you would not be saying that.

Jay

I like your assessment. I'm concerned enough to experiment (safely) first before I make any decision but my feeling on using the slide/shuffle method is that your hand is always very close while the P&S, if the fall occurs at the highest point, has a long pull which is done with the rotator cup which is totally slow (in my head, I have NOT actually done it).

I think the way jay does it, he's probably doing it so perfect that the brake hand is both tight and he is probably quick on the draw. In the other posts that I read, many agreed that a really good belayer can do almost any belay style and be safe. However, seeing people at the crag, a lot get lazy and on autopilot with the P&S and I think comparing autopilot P&S with autopilot shuffle/slide (S/S) that S/S would win. The response time of closing your hand is just so much quicker (AGAIN in my head). I'll see what I think after using both for a while.

(I have belayed with P&S on more than one occasion when required to by a gym using only GriGri's)

I like your assessment. I'm concerned enough to experiment (safely) first before I make any decision but my feeling on using the slide/shuffle method is that your hand is always very close while the P&S, if the fall occurs at the highest point, has a long pull which is done with the rotator cup which is totally slow (in my head, I have NOT actually done it).

I'm sorry, but experience with the GriGri does not directly translate into experience with other belay techniques. This is because the GriGri will grip the rope with a very small amount of tension on the brake strand. In fact, many people have gotten lucky by having the GriGri grip with no tension on the brake strand...but that is certainly not an endorsement of letting the brake strand run free.

You must keep a brake hand on the brake rope. I don't care if you switch hands or not....the brake rope must be controlled. The pinch & slide is more appropriate for some devices, the BUS or PLUS is more appropriate for others. Choose your methodology based on your comfort level, your ability to safely belay, and on what makes the device/belay safe.

...the P&S method does in fact allow the brake hand to have a firmer grip than the method I typically use.

I just don't think that the tighter grip makes a significant difference given the other factors at play including default brake hand and rope orientation.

(Almost) no grip on the rope translates to (almost) no friction, even with the rope making an extra bend around the belay device: no grip = no tension = no friction.

I completely agree.

Then you should start doing it. You have fooled yourself into thinking that you are holding on to the brake side of the rope when you shuffle your brake hand up. You're not. You cannot consistently move your brake hand the rope without anchoring the free end of the rope with your other hand. You are letting go.

Jay

Don't you ever watch the climber when you are belaying? I sure do. This "fraction of a second while you're sliding your hand" stuff is complete bullshit. I can (and routinely do) retighten my grip on the rope long before the rope ever comes tight. Sliding your hand up the rope when belaying simply isn't a problem if you're paying attention.

There isn't a belayer alive who watches his partner 100% of the time. Any belayer who belays in the style described by notapplicable will be letting go with his brake hand (and that's exactly what it is) while not watching his partner on a regular basis. If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Well, neither you nor I have any data to support our respective positions--thus, we are in the realm of pure speculation. I simply don't think that this is the big deal you are making of it--and I doubt that this technique alone (sliding your belay hand up the rope) is leading to very many accidents, if any.

Curt

You are most likely mistaken. Braking force—ie, friction—is directly related to the tension in the rope, which, in turn, is related to the strength of the grip of the brake hand. Your claim, above, boils down to this: that friction is greater with essentially no grip on the rope, due to an extra bend in the rope around the lip of the belay device; compared with a tight grip on the rope, without that extra bend. That is almost certainly incorrect. (Almost) no grip on the rope translates to (almost) no friction, even with the rope making an extra bend around the belay device: no grip = no tension = no friction.

If you get caught off guard for a fraction of a second, and the belayer falls while you are essentially letting go of the rope to reposition your brake hand, your first indication of a fall will be the rope running through your brake hand. There is absolutely no way this is safe, or superior to being caught off guard using the pinch and slide method during the slide "phase" while maintain a firm grip on the rope. In the pinch-and-slide case, tension will build up in the rope; the rope will start to stretch; the rope won't slide through your brake hand, but rather, your brake hand will be pulled toward the device; and, unless you are completely brain-dead, you will react by locking off the device. In contrast, with your method, you will have to catch, and stop, a moving rope. And, until you can produce empirical evidence that you can do that, without wearing a glove, I'm not going to accept you can, and neither should anyone else. You are using a completely non-standard method of belaying: the onus is on you to demonstrate that it is safe.

Jay

If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Yeah, I agree that we don't have any data, and for that reason the discussion has more-or-less reached a stalemate.

Jay

This is RC.com. Arguing until we're blue in the face while making zero headway with the opposition is what we do here.

Yeah, I agree that we don't have any data, and for that reason the discussion has more-or-less reached a stalemate.

Jay

Although I think the wording "soar" might be a bit strong, I generally agree with this. I think new climbers should be taught a method that keeps a totally locked down hand ON THE BRAKE SIDE OF THE ROPE at all times. Once they catch some falls and learn the movements and forces involved with belaying, they can transition to more "advanced" techniques.


Fast forward to the last few seconds of this video and look at this guy catch a fall. If he can catch a fall using that death method, I can damn sure catch falls all day long using mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHes0dPSonE

Side note: Go on youtube and watch some of the "instructional" belaying videos. I'm pretty sure you'll be a whole lot less concerned about my method.

This discussion seems somewhat disconnected from the reality of any kind of multi-pitch climb. When you are scrunched up in a hole, stuck in a closed corner, lying on a portaledge, belaying someone after having dropped your ATC (yes, that WILL happen one day), or sprained your favorite break hand... you will need to adapt your belaying style to the current situation.

I am convinced that like in so many other real-life climbing situations, there is always a BEST technique. Unfortunately it is always situation dependant. Experienced climbers have many options to choose from - and from these, they choose according to the current external factors. Heck, on an easy climb where speed is of the essence, even the ancient shoulder belay may be the safest alternative because modern belaying techniques will slow down the team... force a bivouac... thunderstorm... etc

Which means that if you want to eventually get into multi-pitch climbing: Practice many belay techniques, left hand blocking, right hand blocking, munter hitch, hand up, hand down, using your figure 8, even the good ol' waist belay, and whatever else may exist in between because: You never know what you could encounter up there, so be ready for anything! Just make sure you know which is your blocking hand!!!

Otherwise, if you only have one technique, what will you do if it does not work in the situation of the moment? Give up???

No. if he can catch a fall using that method, I can, because he's using the pinch-and-slide method. When he catches the fall, he's belaying pretty much the way I do: he keeps the ropes 90 degrees apart, by default, locking off only when the climber falls.

I don't know man, obviously I don't use the P&S so I'm not the best suited to speak on the matter but his belaying looks really sloppy for someone using a "passive" belay device. His default hand position seems to be more like 45 degrees, they're also pretty close to the belay device and shuffling back and forth a lot. It makes me nervous to watch but he caught the fall so perhaps appearances are deceiving.

If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Your method is the worst of all worlds. You're locked off by default, so you can't respond quickly, plus a significant percentage of the time you don't even have a grip on the rope with your brake hand.

Jay

First you say its locked off. Then you pretend it isn't. You're blowing smoke on your old bugaboo here J. Its bullshit.

Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT.

Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it.

And most of the time it's a stupid point.

Do you drive with your foot on the brake in case you need to stop? No.

You put your foot on the brake only when you need to stop. When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position.

When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall.

Jay

Except that, to my understanding, it isn't us n00bs with the eagerness of a puppy watching every second with hyper awareness, but the half-expert with the casualness of "been there / done that" that is the source of most accidents.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

When he's in the little picture in the corner of the frame (what's that called?) he's keeping the ropes at 45 degrees. That's ok if there is a lot of friction. When he's in the main frame toward the end of the video, he's keeping the ropes 90 degrees apart, a good angle for typical, modern ropes on the skinny side.

And most of the time it's a stupid point...When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position. When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall.

Jay

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

Try it.

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

There are two belayers in the video. The guys belaying in full frame looks fine. The guy in picture in picture has his hands close together, close to the belay device and well above the belay device. He's the one that makes me nervous. Not so much because an experienced belayer can't do that safely but because a new belayer will most certainly get a hand sucked in to the belay device. Your the one who made the observation that the brake hand is drawn towards the device in a fall. Hell, I'm sure we've all seen people get a hand pinched while just lowering a climber, I know I have. I don't think what the second guy is doing is safe for a new belayer.




I agree with you on this. My method does not allow for the same degree of swift and subtle rope movement as the P&S.

I'm sure you can.

Jay

Thank you. That is an important admission.

Thank you. That is an important admission.

Jay

I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't.

Jay

No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this.

Curt

This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.

Way to go rockclimbing.com!

Jay

For generations? Really?

You realize that you have to slide your brake hand down the rope in a hip belay, right?

You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand?

Jay

No. I do catch the falls with my brake hand--but, of course you knew that.

Curt

Straw man.

No, Reno. Holding on with your brake hand letting go with it are not splitting hairs. If you think they are, you are incompetent.

This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.

Way to go rockclimbing.com!

Jay

Jay, you're a funny guy. Ever consider comedy as a career?

I'm this website's champ at splitting hairs, and even *I* can't get past how pedantic you're being.

Alright alright alright, keep your voice down man!!

Look fellas, I think were gonna have to bring Jay in on this or he's gonna ruin everything.

Jay, what you are witnessing is what is known as TNCI09 (The nOOb Culling Initiative of 2009). This sport is growing at an uncontrolled rate and the crags are being overrun. The consensus is that a dramatic rise in gumby deaths is the only hope for a long term solution and this new belay method gets them to do away with one another while reducing backlash against the existing community.

...Palm down I will continue to slide my brake hand along the rope to reposition it. Nothing you've said about ropes zipping through belay devices bears any resemblance to what I've seen and done in 30 plus years of climbing...

Reno, if you think that the difference between shuffling your brake hand up the rope and pinching the brake side of the rope with your guide hand so that you don't have to shuffle it up the rope is a case of splitting hairs, then you are simply ignorant.

Nor does is bear any resemblance to reality.

Curt

I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."

A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems.

I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."

I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this.

Curt