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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 2:00 AM
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jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." What I submit is that you're not just loosening your grip. You're not gripping at all. I submit that there is a difference between having your hand around the rope and actually gripping it. What you guys are suggesting is so fundamentally wrong that I can't even believe that we are having this conversation. Jay
Naturally, there is no possibility that everyone else is right--because that would mean you are wrong.
Curt
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 2:02 AM
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dingus wrote: I think most experienced climbers slide their brake hand up and down the rope without using the other hand, from time to time if not more often. As in the vast majority, sport climbers included. Any visit to the locak crags will confirm this. It is standard operating procedure, text book noob admonishments notwithstanding. DMT
I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique.
Jay
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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 2:04 AM
Post #103 of 387
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jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: I think most experienced climbers slide their brake hand up and down the rope without using the other hand, from time to time if not more often. As in the vast majority, sport climbers included. Any visit to the locak crags will confirm this. It is standard operating procedure, text book noob admonishments notwithstanding. DMT I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique. Jay
Then it's about time that you finally learned something.
Curt
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 2:05 AM
Post #104 of 387
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." What I submit is that you're not just loosening your grip. You're not gripping at all. I submit that there is a difference between having your hand around the rope and actually gripping it. What you guys are suggesting is so fundamentally wrong that I can't even believe that we are having this conversation. Jay Naturally, there is no possibility that everyone else is right--because that would mean you are wrong. Curt
One n00b and two old farts isn't exactly "everyone."
Jay
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d0nk3yk0n9
Mar 18, 2009, 2:13 AM
Post #105 of 387
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jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." What I submit is that you're not just loosening your grip. You're not gripping at all. I submit that there is a difference between having your hand around the rope and actually gripping it.
True. However, the difference is that when your hand is around the rope, you only have to tighten your hand to grip it fully, whereas if you let go completely, when the climber falls you actually lose control of the rope. It's a gray area that really depends on experience and comfort (both one's own and one's partner's) with the technique and with belaying in general. In short, something many people probably due often with little to no added risk, but not something I would teach beginners or say is okay for everyone to do.
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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 2:13 AM
Post #106 of 387
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." What I submit is that you're not just loosening your grip. You're not gripping at all. I submit that there is a difference between having your hand around the rope and actually gripping it. What you guys are suggesting is so fundamentally wrong that I can't even believe that we are having this conversation. Jay Naturally, there is no possibility that everyone else is right--because that would mean you are wrong. Curt One n00b and two old farts isn't exactly "everyone." Jay
onceahardman is a n00b?
Curt
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notapplicable
Mar 18, 2009, 2:25 AM
Post #107 of 387
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." What I submit is that you're not just loosening your grip. You're not gripping at all. I submit that there is a difference between having your hand around the rope and actually gripping it. What you guys are suggesting is so fundamentally wrong that I can't even believe that we are having this conversation. Jay Naturally, there is no possibility that everyone else is right--because that would mean you are wrong. Curt One n00b and two old farts isn't exactly "everyone." Jay onceahardman is a n00b? Curt
I think he was talking about me.
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healyje
Mar 18, 2009, 2:25 AM
Post #108 of 387
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jt512 wrote: One n00b and two old farts isn't exactly "everyone." Jay
Jesus, go away for awhile, come back and it's the same Jay, different day - make that three old farts please. All the ridiculous angst around the topic of belaying is actually pretty funny as I suspect the reality is a whole lot of people are getting dropped these days by folks using, or rather misusing, all the various methods and devices. ATC and grigri; up, down, and sideways; sketch and skip; wink and blink; flirt and squirt - you name it, some percentage of folks are just going to f#ck it up for a variety of reasons most having to do with not paying attention to the right thing at the right time.
Belaying conscientiousnessly and with a modicum of awareness is far and away more important than which of the various methods you choose. Which of those methods and devices noobs should use to minimize number of gym fatalities is another argument altogether.
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onceahardman
Mar 18, 2009, 2:43 AM
Post #109 of 387
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jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: I think most experienced climbers slide their brake hand up and down the rope without using the other hand, from time to time if not more often. As in the vast majority, sport climbers included. Any visit to the locak crags will confirm this. It is standard operating procedure, text book noob admonishments notwithstanding. DMT I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique. Jay
I suspect "pinch-and-slide" is your favorite masturbatory technique...9.8mm sounds about right.
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 2:51 AM
Post #110 of 387
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onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: I think most experienced climbers slide their brake hand up and down the rope without using the other hand, from time to time if not more often. As in the vast majority, sport climbers included. Any visit to the locak crags will confirm this. It is standard operating procedure, text book noob admonishments notwithstanding. DMT I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique. Jay I suspect "pinch-and-slide" is your favorite masturbatory technique...9.8mm sounds about right.
That was mature.
Jay
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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 2:57 AM
Post #111 of 387
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jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: I think most experienced climbers slide their brake hand up and down the rope without using the other hand, from time to time if not more often. As in the vast majority, sport climbers included. Any visit to the locak crags will confirm this. It is standard operating procedure, text book noob admonishments notwithstanding. DMT I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique. Jay I suspect "pinch-and-slide" is your favorite masturbatory technique...9.8mm sounds about right. That was mature. Jay
You should give him a break. That was the first post in several pages that wasn't disagreeing with you.
Curt
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notapplicable
Mar 18, 2009, 3:34 AM
Post #112 of 387
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curt wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems. I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this. Curt
EDIT: I had this thread confused with one in the beginners forum that were happening at the same time. I did not broach the subject in here but rather the other thread.
I've gotta admit, I was actually a bit nervous when I first made the post that spawned this conversation. Haven't seen this topic discussed before so I wasn't really sure what the response was gonna be.
When I started climbing I read a few of books, spent a few days sport climbing and then started teaching myself to lead on gear, haven't looked back since. I started belaying using the fundamentals found in the books and then just let my system evolve to suit my needs. What I found though, was that most other people I've climbed with use one of the more "formal" methods and I get the stink eye every time I go to the gym here in Richmond. Over time I've tried to reconcile what seemed to be a community consensus with what felt natural and experience had told me was perfectly safe under most circumstances. Eventually I decided I just had to trust intuition and experience.
I think it's interesting that all but one of the people acknowledging this particular belay method as safe, are also among the sites most experienced. I would definitely be raising an eyebrow if it were just a bunch of us in the 5-10 year experience bracket but it's hard to argue with the veterans when the topic at hand is something so basic and fundamental as belaying.
Interesting discussion either way and thanks for spending the time to be so thorough Jay. We may disagree about my method but between your and Dingus's thoughts on the P&S, I think I'm gonna experiment with it next time I hit the gym. I'm always willing to learn some new tricks of the trade.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 18, 2009, 6:02 PM)
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notapplicable
Mar 18, 2009, 3:39 AM
Post #113 of 387
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: jt512 wrote: This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand. Way to go rockclimbing.com! Jay Alright alright alright, keep your voice down man!! Look fellas, I think were gonna have to bring Jay in on this or he's gonna ruin everything. Jay, what you are witnessing is what is known as TNCI09 (The nOOb Culling Initiative of 2009). This sport is growing at an uncontrolled rate and the crags are being overrun. The consensus is that a dramatic rise in gumby deaths is the only hope for a long term solution and this new belay method gets them to do away with one another while reducing backlash against the existing community. Oh. In that case, never mind. Jay
I knew you'd come around.
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reno
Mar 18, 2009, 4:16 AM
Post #114 of 387
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jt512 wrote: I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique.
Oh. Well, if you've never heard it on the internet, that must mean you're right.
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 4:22 AM
Post #115 of 387
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notapplicable wrote: curt wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems. I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this. Curt I think it's interesting that all but one of the people acknowledging this particular belay method as safe, are also among the sites most experienced. I would definitely be raising an eyebrow if it were just a bunch of us in the 5-10 year experience bracket but it's hard to argue with the veterans when the topic at hand is something so basic and fundamental as belaying.
I do not mean to impugn the judgment or safeness of any of the specific climbers in this thread, but I would be careful about trusting a climber just because he was a veteran—very careful.
Jay
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reno
Mar 18, 2009, 4:25 AM
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jt512 wrote: I do not mean to impugn the judgment or safeness of any of the specific climbers in this thread, but I would be careful about trusting a climber just because he was a veteran— very careful.
How long you been climbing again?
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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 4:38 AM
Post #117 of 387
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: curt wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems. I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this. Curt I think it's interesting that all but one of the people acknowledging this particular belay method as safe, are also among the sites most experienced. I would definitely be raising an eyebrow if it were just a bunch of us in the 5-10 year experience bracket but it's hard to argue with the veterans when the topic at hand is something so basic and fundamental as belaying. I do not mean to impugn the judgment or safeness of any of the specific climbers in this thread, but I would be careful about trusting a climber just because he was a veteran— very careful. Jay
Indeed. Those of us who have belayed with countless different belay devices (or no device) and have done so while being benighted/snowed off/hailed off/chased off by lightning from alpine routes/big walls and countless multi-pitch climbs over the last 30 years, what could we possibly know? Particularly in contrast to conventional wisdom on the internet?
Curt
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dingus
Mar 18, 2009, 4:43 AM
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: curt wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems. I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this. Curt I think it's interesting that all but one of the people acknowledging this particular belay method as safe, are also among the sites most experienced. I would definitely be raising an eyebrow if it were just a bunch of us in the 5-10 year experience bracket but it's hard to argue with the veterans when the topic at hand is something so basic and fundamental as belaying. I do not mean to impugn the judgment or safeness of any of the specific climbers in this thread, but I would be careful about trusting a climber just because he was a veteran— very careful. Jay
I absolutely agree with this. I have damn near killed myself more than once climbing. I'm self taught out of a borrowed book that was missing a few pages. I wouldn't take the crap I spew from me, or anyone else for that matter.
And personally? I put a lot of stock in JTs advice. A LOT. (seriously, I do)
Fundamentally I don't agree that sport belay methods are the best answer or safest - for all trad.
I don't agree, fundamentally, that a palm up V stance is THE single best solution for all belay needs. I think there are many times in climbing when a palm down lock off position is superior for the task at hand.
Know the advantage of a lock off position?
Care to take a guess????
DMT
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healyje
Mar 18, 2009, 4:51 AM
Post #119 of 387
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jt512 wrote: I do not mean to impugn the judgment or safeness of any of the specific climbers in this thread, but I would be careful about trusting a climber just because he was a veteran— very careful. Jay
Dude, no harness, no belay device of any kind, no locking biners - just pro and a rope - and I can still lead and belay as safe or safer than you on any route, any day of the week (again and again).
Get a grip on your spew man...
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 4:58 AM
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healyje wrote: jt512 wrote: I do not mean to impugn the judgment or safeness of any of the specific climbers in this thread, but I would be careful about trusting a climber just because he was a veteran— very careful. Jay Dude, no harness, no belay device of any kind, no locking biners - just pro and a rope - and I can still lead and belay as safe or safer than you on any route, any day of the week ( again and again). Get a grip on your spew man...
It appears that can you not read simple printed English (was it "impugn" that threw you?), so expecting you to read between the lines is clearly out of the question.
Jay
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 5:12 AM
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dingus wrote: And personally? I put a lot of stock in JTs advice. A LOT. (seriously, I do)
Thanks for that. It means a lot to me.
In reply to: Fundamentally I don't agree that sport belay methods are the best answer or safest - for all trad.
First of all, I'm not advocating a "sport belay method." I was taught to belay this way in the mid-80s in Yosemite by some of the best trad climbers in the country, and used it exclusively on trad climbs for close to 10 years.
In reply to: I don't agree, fundamentally, that a palm up V [sic] stance is THE single best solution for all belay needs.
Nobody does, including me. But shouldn't it go without saying that there are exceptions to every rule, include the rule that there are exceptions to every rule? Do we have to put disclaimers on every single post? "It Depends ™" stopped being funny a decade ago.
In reply to: Know the advantage of a lock off position? Care to take a guess????
It's easier to scratch your ass. What do I win?
Jay
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notapplicable
Mar 18, 2009, 5:23 AM
Post #122 of 387
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: curt wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems. I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this. Curt I think it's interesting that all but one of the people acknowledging this particular belay method as safe, are also among the sites most experienced. I would definitely be raising an eyebrow if it were just a bunch of us in the 5-10 year experience bracket but it's hard to argue with the veterans when the topic at hand is something so basic and fundamental as belaying. I do not mean to impugn the judgment or safeness of any of the specific climbers in this thread, but I would be careful about trusting a climber just because he was a veteran— very careful. Jay
No doubt. Nor am I always willing to put total faith in my own (often limited) personal experience as being the final authority on these matters. I didn't spend as much time on this discussion as I have simply because I enjoy arguing.
In this case though, their cumulative experience coupled with my own is making it difficult to summon much skepticism.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 18, 2009, 5:44 AM)
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notapplicable
Mar 18, 2009, 5:54 AM
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reno wrote: jt512 wrote: I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique. Oh. Well, if you've never heard it on the internet, that must mean you're right.
In an age when people look to the internet as a source of employment, news, communication and entertainment, the real humor in this quip is a bit more subtle than it first appears.
Well done.
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 6:02 AM
Post #124 of 387
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notapplicable wrote: reno wrote: jt512 wrote: I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique. Oh. Well, if you've never heard it on the internet, that must mean you're right. In an age when people look to the internet as a source of employment, news, communication and entertainment, the real humor in this quip is a bit more subtle than it first appears.
Reno (and you, probably) is too young to remember the old days, when it was the smartest people in the world who used the Internet.
Jay
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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 6:18 AM
Post #125 of 387
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: reno wrote: jt512 wrote: I'll tell you something, Dingus. In 15 years of arguing about belaying on the Internet—palms-up, palms-down, dynamic, "running", just stand there locked off like an idiot, 5-point nonsense, pinch-and-slide, etc.—until this week, not once, in 15 years, have I seen anyone have the audacity to suggest that shuffling your brake hand up the rope is a legitimate belay technique. Oh. Well, if you've never heard it on the internet, that must mean you're right. In an age when people look to the internet as a source of employment, news, communication and entertainment, the real humor in this quip is a bit more subtle than it first appears. Reno (and you, probably) is too young to remember the old days, when it was the smartest people in the world who used the Internet. Jay
Well, that surely isn't the case anymore. However, always remember that a prominent east coast climber (unlike Al Gore) did play a major role in inventing it.
Curt
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