As long as you keep a hand on the brake side it should be good. Maybe your right hand was not tight enough when on the brake side which would ultimately be like not holding it, which could be bad in case of a fall.

Hi,

So yesterday I was belaying at the gym and one of the employees came over and said I was belaying incorrectly (TR). The method I was using was:
1) Left hand climber side, Right on brake.
2) Pull slack through
3) Grab rope nearish to top of ATC (brake side) with Left hand, and hold.
4) Release Right hand, bring above left and hold
5) Repeat.

She told me my "brake hand was leaving the rope".

I was concentrating on belaying and didn't want to start an argument with her there, so I have to ask, is there a problem with the way I was belaying? Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? It seems safe to me, since I am always holding the ATC locked off when not pulling slack through, though the hand holding the brake strand may change.

Thanks!

you cant keep "a" hand on the brake strand. You have to keep the brake hand on the brake strand. ie, i am right handed, my right hand never leaves the brake strand. any time i am moving my right hand it is just a slide.

Hi,

So yesterday I was belaying at the gym and one of the employees came over and said I was belaying incorrectly (TR). The method I was using was:
1) Left hand climber side, Right on brake.
2) Pull slack through
3) Grab rope nearish to top of ATC (brake side) with Left hand, and hold.
4) Release Right hand, bring above left and hold
5) Repeat.

She told me my "brake hand was leaving the rope".

I was concentrating on belaying and didn't want to start an argument with her there, so I have to ask, is there a problem with the way I was belaying? Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? It seems safe to me, since I am always holding the ATC locked off when not pulling slack through, though the hand holding the brake strand may change.

Thanks!

I asked what a left handed person would do, but all that got me was the threat of getting kicked out.

The only time it might be an issue is for lead belaying; if they take a hard FF fall, your left hand might not be as strong as your right and might let more rope slip.

I find you a little bit pretentious to judge my belaying style without seeing what I do, but I suppose it is to be associated with my few post count. ;-)

What I was referring to is the fact that some people does whichever technique and their top hand will gently hold the brake hand while moving the brake hand (a simple squeezing of the finger instead of a good grabbing by the hand). I was just saying that it might be what the employee was referring to when he said that he wasnt holding the brake side.

And with a non-locking belay device, you must never release the brake side. I know that and I never release it, even if my right hand (Im right handed) momentarily leave the brake side to grab above my left hand. And sometimes, I slide it too. Keep in mind that I do such dangerous things on TR. On lead, my two hands are always the rope, top and brake side and they slide. lol

This reminds me why I never post. Being a frenchie I must make lots of errors which make you think that I dont know crap! ;-)

Is there something inherently unsafe in that method?

Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world.

Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean.

What's this, then, a disreputable gym?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc

Jay

Curious Jay, would you let the person in that video belay you like that?

PS- judging by his accent, maybe he is from an isolated island in Pacific Ocean too?

Sure. Why not?


Um, which ocean?

Jay

I think I belay like you as well. The thing is the slide option for TR seems safer, but it's not. They're both perfectly safe when executed well and will still hold if executed crap. From what I read on this site a lot of Americans are very anal about all kinds of practices which are perfectly normal in Europe practiced on a large skill and not causing any problems. Such as this method of belay or using a clove as your sole anchor point. To each their own I guess.

Cheers.

hehehe. i figure you belay in a gym like you eat dinner at someone else's house - you're the guest so you do it by their rules even if you disagree. when you're out on your own you can do whatever the hell you want.

Gah. This thread is hilarious already. And it's still on the first page.

I can't comment on your belaying skill without seeing it, but the technique that you're describing is known as B.U.S. (Brake, Under, Slide).

No reason, I was just curious. Is not Australia at least partly in the Pacific ocean (as well as the Indian ocean)?

QTM:
This method is simple. I don't even understand why you would want to keep switching hands back and forth. KISS. It's not hard.

So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything?

Jay

half of us are going to die??

binrat

half of us are going to die??

binrat

So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything?

Jay

here is the way you're belaying (which is incorrect, skip to 1:50) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc

that said, the BUS method is becoming the most popular technique taught at gyms- so, if you're going to spend a fair bit of time in climbing gyms, knowing it will help get you through belay tests and generally avoid being hassled by the employee who doesnt understand there are other ways to control the rope.

i should mention, though, that its one thing for your employees who dont have any experience and have a limited time at the facility to be rabid about enforcing the BUS method, its another for someone who has been there for years and who should know better to do the same thing. an employer would do well to teach its employees a wide variety of skill sets so that they can better spot and understand unsafe behavior in the gym rather than just blindly enforcing a mostly arbitrary rule set by the owner. this not only makes them better employees, but also better climbers and better able to teach and explain to others when they see something different.

Or, since we are (presumptively) responding with our brains, were all half brain-dead?

Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world.

If your right hand doesn’t actually ever leave the rope then your method is fine.

Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean.

What's this, then, a disreputable gym?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc

Jay

Go back and read again. At what point does a hand leave the brake strand????
_____________________________________________

It's always easy to tell who the inexperienced noob know it alls are. They are the ones that will rant on about how there is only one right way of doing things and stick to absolute "always" rules. There are alot of different ways of doing things safely and belaying is no exception to this. As long as you leave one hand on the brake strand and maintain constant control then it's all good.

Keep learning new ways of doing things and adopt what works best for the situation.

It’s not "a" hand. It’s "the" hand. Where is "the" is your right hand (if belaying right handed). It’s ok to use the secondary hand to hold onto the rope well you advance your brake hand but at no point should the brake hand ever leave the rope. It’s a hell of a lot harder catching a lead fall when you’re holding on the rope with the hand you never catch falls with. Now as one advances and they have 300 lead fall catches under their belt, some things can change.

Wait, which part of the UK is in the Pacific?

I can understand why people think that the letting go with one hand could produce complacency, and you might end up releasing your brake before the other hand has a full grip, but that is just an error

No I would not consider that belay method reputable. Granted I have certainty seen worse but I wouldn’t not allow him to belay me on lead on anything hard. If the climber fell during that transition period where his hand was of the brake side the climber would be, for a lack of better words, completely fucked... There is no way in hell that guy is catching any reasonable lead fall during that transitioning period holding on with three fingers from the opposite hand.

So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything?

Jay

Yet it was you that went so far to make sure it was known they you have never in your entire life taken your hand off the brake side of the rope. Don’t you remember the large argument? You desperately tried to make it clear that you have never let go of the brake side of the rope. So where you lying or did you suddenly have a change of heart in acceptable belay methods...?

I thought you would be the last person to reference a gym instructor as an appropriate de facto standard for climbing.

The quality of gym instruction is, in most cases, but a sub-level above no instruction.

No I would not consider that belay method reputable.

Granted I have certainty seen worse but I wouldn’t not allow him to belay me on lead on anything hard.

If the climber fell during that transition period where his hand was of[f] the brake side the climber would be, for a lack of better words, completely fucked... There is no way in hell that guy is catching any reasonable lead fall during that transitioning period holding on with three fingers from the opposite hand.

if i understand correctly, you're holding the rope with both incoming and outgoing strands parallel to each other, rather than taking the brake side to your hip before sliding the brake hand?

It’s not "a" hand. It’s "the" hand. Where is "the" is your right hand (if belaying right handed). It’s ok to use the secondary hand to hold onto the rope well you advance your brake hand but at no point should the brake hand ever leave the rope. It’s a hell of a lot harder catching a lead fall when you’re holding on the rope with the hand you never catch falls with. Now as one advances and they have 300 lead fall catches under their belt, some things can change.

....
As for the first bolded part, that's the standard method in Europe but of course we can't climb right, I mean we use singl clove hitches as safety. As for the second it doesn't there's no such thing as the brake hand the brake hand is whatever hand is holding onto the break strand.

Do a bit of travelling, pic up some new techniques.

What we are really arguing about is is it ok to alternate which hand you have on the brake strand or if you have to consistently use the same hand.

now you're just arguing about what the definition of brake hand is.

in america (for the most part) brake hand = a predetermined hand that will never leave the brake strand

in europe (i guess Australia too) brake hand = whichever hand is holding the rope.

both sides agree that your brake hand (by whichever definition you use) must never leave the brake strand. What we are really arguing about is is it ok to alternate which hand you have on the brake strand or if you have to consistently use the same hand.

continue on....

side note: seriously, all the techniques are pretty much the same, if you know one, you should easily be able to switch in between em. its not like it takes a lot of practice. Plus you're in a gym, just do it how they want. when you go outside, do whatever the fuck you want.

BTW, in answer to an earlier note about grabbing an out of control rope, slap the back of your belay hand against the climber's rope and slide your hand down onto your device, and mash your hand onto the loose rope, against your device. You can stop it, although you will lose some skin.

Even though I have no idea what that means, I know that it is wrong.

Jay

The belayer's hand that holds the rope coming from the climber, which is known as the feeling hand, is used to pay the rope in and out. The other hand, known as the braking hand, must never let go of its grip on the rope, remaining ready to catch a fall at any time. It is important to maintain the correct tension on the rope, preventing excess slack, anticipating the climber's movements and needs, letting out rope as the climber moves up or clips into protection, or taking rope in as needed.

With some practice, a belayer can learn to quickly take in or let out rope as required while never removing the braking hand from the rope. A specific sequence of hand motions is used to take in the rope.

...

The braking hand must never leave the rope.

From Mountaineering: Freedom Of The Hills

The fact that you referred to the mountaineers bible - written by a group of professional mountaineers over the course of FIFTY years - as a "book for n00bs" is astounding to me.

Introductory texts in most any field are written by experts; the texts are nonetheless entry level. As far as the text being written over the course of fifty years, well, maybe that's why it's always out-of-date. They keep coming out with new editions, but never seem to actually catch up. Makes you wonder why they bother.

Who wants to climb a "hill," anyway.

Jay

This hefty tome, first published in 1960, was the book that started The Mountaineers Books. Known as "the climber's bible," it covers virtually all aspects of climbing, from choosing equipment and tying knots to basic rappelling techniques and expedition planning. There are sections on rock climbing, alpine climbing, emergency prevention and response and snow cycles, along with appendices on wind chill temperatures and suggestions for further reading. This seventh edition, written by a team of more than 40 expert climbers, reflects changes in equipment and technique, with new chapters on waterfall ice climbing and mixed climbing, physical conditioning, and land stewardship issues. It's also enhanced with 415 new illustrations depicting the "chimney technique" and the "twin-rope technique," among other maneuvers, and a new "ten essentials" list. Although the prose is workmanlike at best ("understanding fall factor and how it determines impact forces is fundamental to safe leading"), this work remains a must-have for climbing enthusiasts.

Since publication of the first edition in 1960, Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills has endured as THE classic mountaineering text. Novice climbers use it as a primer; veterans use it to review their skills.

...

The more than forty contributors to Freedom 7 are all active climbers who regularly use and teach the skills about which they write. They have also incorporated comments and suggestions from veteran climbers around the world. This is a resource trusted by mountaineering communities everywhere.

Whether you are an aspiring mountaineer or a professional guide, this is one book that fits in your library and will continue to get serious use. Not only is this a classic in terms of its definitive instruction, it is also up-to-date.

It’s not "a" hand. It’s "the" hand. Where is "the" is your right hand (if belaying right handed). It’s ok to use the secondary hand to hold onto the rope well you advance your brake hand but at no point should the brake hand ever leave the rope. It’s a hell of a lot harder catching a lead fall when you’re holding on the rope with the hand you never catch falls with. Now as one advances and they have 300 lead fall catches under their belt, some things can change.

Who would want to climb "hills"? I guess anyone who enjoys the outdoors... Me personally, I simply enjoy the challenge, exercise, endurance required, and experiences gained. Same reason I like climbing "rocks".

And it is hardly just an introductory or beginners text, and is hardly out-of-date. Next.

Appeal to authority, lives in Utah. I think we can guess the rest.

Jay

I doubt you could guess the rest. ;) I would love to hear an attempt though. I could make some assumptions about your alleged lack of humility, but I'm not actually arrogant enough to do so.

There are 50 posts in this thread containing more sophisticated and thoughtful responses to the OP than your mindless quoting from a book for n00bs. In the future, you can save yourself some embarrassment by actually reading the thread before posting. Checking the date of the last post wouldn't exactly hurt either.

Jay

M:FOTH is more of an encyclopedia than a bible. You can get an overview of climbing basics but it's better to look elsewhere for specific information. The rock climbing section is pretty bare bones and general IMO.

M:FOTH is more of an encyclopedia than a bible. You can get an overview of climbing basics but it's better to look elsewhere for specific information. The rock climbing section is pretty bare bones and general IMO.

If you want a more professional aspect, AMGA courses teach the BUS method (as far as I've seen). Since they're a partner of the CWA (Climbing Wall Association), I'd say it's pretty safe bet that the BUS method is acceptable. The justification that is given when people ask is that it keeps the brake strand locked off more often and the hand is biomechanically stronger in a palms down orientation. Whethere that's a fact or just trickle down information from policy makers I don't know.

And I only went on to credit the book because Jay pointed it out as a book for n00bs and an out-of-date reference. Both of these are utterly false.

You don't need to have critical thinking skills to lack religion nor do you have to live in Utah to have religion.

And on your either/or fallacy: you are wrong - as I suspected - on both points.

*yawn*

Regardless of my critical thinking skills, I have cited text from a well-known, trusted source. If you wish to discredit the book, by all means, proceed. But don't attack me. Attack the book, it's authors, sources, whatever. And maybe with a little more than "it's an introductory text".

Or better yet, find me an uber-elite, ultra-specialized book - perhaps on the topic of belaying - that says anything contrary to what I have cited from FOTH.

Because that is your point, right? That FOTH is a book for noobs, it's out-of-date, and therefore can't be trusted. Or is your point that the text I cited is incorrect? Either way, make your point.

Shocking: senior members here are referring to FOTH has an out-of-date text and book for n00bs. Because after all, belaying techniques have advanced so greatly since 2008. Plus, completely making up information is much more reliable than anything any n00b book has to offer.

I have yet to meet a mountaineer that doesn't still at least use FOTH as a reference, but I know how forums work, and without a post count, you have no authority or validity. I get it. We can get off the book, and onto the topic - but I know that's not the point.

I've conceded that this is mostly a debate about preference, but most pro associations and books recommend doing it one way, and has been explained physically why one method is used over another (which was quoted here a couple times). But obviously the state I live in, my religion, and lack of critical thinking skills has completely clouded my judgment.

I have yet to meet a mountaineer that doesn't still at least use FOTH as a reference...

I would like to read a book that does a better job than FOTH at tackling mountaineering. I'm sure there are books that delve deeper into climbing rock specifically, like Long's books, but as an encyclopedia and general reference for beginners and pros alike, FOTH is the best I've found.

I've read FOTH. I look elsewhere for modern techniques of alpinism and mountaineering.

Would someone please enumerate precisely what parts of FOTH professional climbers refer to. I simply don't believe that professional climbers, from Chris Sharma to Ed Viesturs, ever look up anything in FOTH.

Jay

Would someone please enumerate precisely what parts of FOTH professional climbers refer to. I simply don't believe that professional climbers, from Chris Sharma to Ed Viesturs, ever look up anything in FOTH.

Jay

Also, if I remember correctly there are many advanced knots (for rescue) and also diagrams of pretty complex pulley systems (e.g., 5-to-1, 3-to-1 on a 2-to-1 system) that even highly experienced mountaineers might not have dialed.

In reality, I doubt Ed Viesturs ever needs to look back at FOTH. But I bet he has it in his library. And you are right, as far as rock goes, the book isn't an advanced text by any means. But it can't get in too deep into any one area because mountaineering encompasses so many things. It covers them all on a pretty good level. And that is why it is the most advanced text for mountaineering that is out there (IMO). Because it does cover pretty much every aspect of it. I could find a more advanced text on crevasse rescue, knots, weather, alpine terrain, navigation, expedition planning, etc., but on mountaineering in general, which comprises all of these things, there is no better text.

If anyone disagrees with me, then we must duel. Also, I would like to know what book you think is better so that I can buy it.

Please share these.

Oh give me a fucking break. Exactly how are you defining a "mountaineer." How many have you actually met? How do you know whether they use FOTH as a reference? What are their experience levels? And exactly information in the book do they refer to?

I am not a mountaineer. I have no interest in the non-rockclimbing sections of the book, and have never read them. All I can speak to is the rock climbing sections, and they are rudimentary at best. In over 20 years of climbing, I have never, once used FOTH as a reference book. There is absolutely nothing in the book I need to refer to. It is introductory climbing material with a stodgy trad undertone. Even when I ws a beginner, I wasn't impressed with the book, and I'm way passed the point of having any use for it now.

Jay

Extreme Alpinism: Mark Twight
The Mountaineering Handbook: Craig Connolly

Are two that I enjoyed. There is at least one reviewer that agrees with JT about M:FOTH.

I've read Twight's book and I agree that it is a good book. Much more narrow focus on a modern subset of alpinism (light and fast, or exxxxtreme).But not everyone is interested in making themselves as hard to kill as possible. Some people also want to learn about sastrugi.

The bolded sentence (among others) is wrong. Broad coverage does not mean advanced coverage. In general, there is an inverse relation between a text's breadth and it how advanced it is.

Jay

What is your obsession with sastrugi?

...but don't pass the book off as a bad or out-of-date reference because you personally have no use for it or simply because of my low post count, on this forum.

You seem to have a tendency of completely muddying potentially good conversations with useless personal attacks, straw men, either/or fallacies, and whatever other distractions you can throw in to get off of having a good debate or conversation.

This is rc.com, there are no 'quick' belay questions.

The fact that you referred to the mountaineers bible - written by a group of professional mountaineers over the course of FIFTY years - as a "book for n00bs" is astounding to me.

JT is right, stop arguing with him.

Out of all the books that I bought this one ie the only one that I read under 20 pages.

JT is right, stop arguing with him.

Fucken kids these days.