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skinner
Sep 2, 2005, 8:55 AM
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In reply to: Your facts about Israel's usurpation of Palestine are skewed. The word "stole" is, at best, open to interpretation.
Really.. hrmm please tell me what word you would use to describe what is happening and continues to happen to the Palestinians on a daily basis?
Anyone who thinks that there is even a grain of justification in the Israelis action needs a serious reality check, like spending a year on the Palestinian side of the fence. Then you can watch first hand how Palestinian homes and agriculture fields are routinely demolished to make way for illegal Israeli settlements
Every day, the Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza blatantly violate articles of the 4th Geneva Convention on Human Rights, an agreement governing wartime rules of engagement which Israel signed.
But then again this could just be Amnesty Internationals and the rest of the worlds interpretation :roll:
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boondock_saint
Sep 2, 2005, 11:44 AM
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Climbing IS my religion ... 'nuff said ...
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daithi
Sep 2, 2005, 1:45 PM
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In reply to: Scientists do not understand/cannot explain the interactions between individual subatomic particles that produce the force we call gravity.
Gravitons man! Of course they haven't been proved experimentally but are predicted by string theory! Science has lots of theories and hypotheses that have not been proved. The real issue is how they go about trying to prove their theories.
The point is scientists make a hypothesis to explain a phenomenon and go about trying to prove it empirically. Questions of religion and God are philosophical questions and of course do not lend themselves to empirical observations. In my mind the debates of religion and science are mutually exclusive. One also needs to remember the limitations of the scientific method due to its dependence of observable phenomenon. Because of this, discussions of God and religion belong to the realm of philosophy not to science.
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rufusandcompany
Sep 2, 2005, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Your facts about Israel's usurpation of Palestine are skewed. The word "stole" is, at best, open to interpretation. Really.. hrmm please tell me what word you would use to describe what is happening and continues to happen to the Palestinians on a daily basis? Anyone who thinks that there is even a grain of justification in the Israelis action needs a serious reality check, like spending a year on the Palestinian side of the fence. Then you can watch first hand how Palestinian homes and agriculture fields are routinely demolished to make way for illegal Israeli settlements Every day, the Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza blatantly violate articles of the 4th Geneva Convention on Human Rights, an agreement governing wartime rules of engagement which Israel signed. But then again this could just be Amnesty Internationals and the rest of the worlds interpretation :roll:
Nice try. If you're going to quote me, quote the entire statement. I already explained it..
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pinktricam
Sep 2, 2005, 4:03 PM
Post #280 of 300
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Your facts about Israel's usurpation of Palestine are skewed. The word "stole" is, at best, open to interpretation. Really.. hrmm please tell me what word you would use to describe what is happening and continues to happen to the Palestinians on a daily basis? Anyone who thinks that there is even a grain of justification in the Israelis action needs a serious reality check, like spending a year on the Palestinian side of the fence. Then you can watch first hand how Palestinian homes and agriculture fields are routinely demolished to make way for illegal Israeli settlements Every day, the Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza blatantly violate articles of the 4th Geneva Convention on Human Rights, an agreement governing wartime rules of engagement which Israel signed. But then again this could just be Amnesty Internationals and the rest of the worlds interpretation :roll: Nice try. If you're going to quote me, quote the entire statement. I already explained it..
I guess that the West Bank and Gaza are no longer in this equation. What about the Golan Heights, is that still Israeli occupied? I can't remember.
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tradman
Sep 2, 2005, 4:17 PM
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Many religions are predicated on inspiration for knowledge. Much as science objects violently to the idea of inspiration as a source of knowledge, it is ironically precisely what makes human endeavour possible, and even science itself!
Science doesn't explain what inspiration is or where it comes from but there can be no doubt that the spontaneous generation of knowledge exists, and that it is no less real than knowledge gained by observation.
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rufusandcompany
Sep 2, 2005, 5:42 PM
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In reply to: Many religions are predicated on inspiration for knowledge. Much as science objects violently to the idea of inspiration as a source of knowledge, it is ironically precisely what makes human endeavour possible, and even science itself! Science doesn't explain what inspiration is or where it comes from but there can be no doubt that the spontaneous generation of knowledge exists, and that it is no less real than knowledge gained by observation.
Before I respond to Tradmans statement, I want to shed some light on the origin of the word inspired (theopneustos). In the original Greek language, it literally means God Breathed. When the Bible claims to be inspired, we understand therefore, that it came from the mouth of God. It is God-breathed, inspired.
This should explain why science dismisses the idea of inspiration as a source of knowledge. I have debated the Intelligent Design topic with Dave, on several threads, and he continually omits such important facts, because he knows that including them would weaken his argument for the existence of God.
Dave, I am amazed, at this point, that you do not recognize how you have allowed your religious ideologies to narrow your field of vision to the extent that you cannot comprehend the uncertainty of what you claim as fact the existence of God. You are behaving in classic Creationist form. You have manipulated all of your arguments for the purpose of convincing us that God does, in fact, exist. This seems to be your sole agenda. I explained to you earlier that formative discourse could not ensue until you were willing to open your mind to the possibility that God is, at best, a theory, regardless of how many people might believe otherwise. There has been, to date, no tangible evidence to prove otherwise.
KC
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wildtrail
Sep 2, 2005, 6:30 PM
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In reply to: Assuming you had to choose one and cant have both, would you give up your religion/faith(assuming you have one) or would you give up climbing? Kind of makes you think doesn't it? Not for me. I'd keep my religion, although Climbing is almost as important.
Atheist here. Guess that says it.
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wildtrail
Sep 2, 2005, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: Assuming you had to choose one and cant have both, would you give up your religion/faith(assuming you have one) or would you give up climbing? Kind of makes you think doesn't it? Not for me. I'd keep my religion, although Climbing is almost as important.
Atheist here. Guess that says it.
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tradman
Sep 5, 2005, 8:35 AM
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In reply to: In the original Greek language, it literally means God Breathed. When the Bible claims to be inspired, we understand therefore, that it came from the mouth of God. It is God-breathed, inspired.
That's right. You can read a dictionary. We're very impressed! However, inspiration now no longer refers specifically to knowledge coming from God. What it refers to is the spontaneous generation of concepts, ideas, visualisations and knowledge in the mind. That you instantly reject this very obvious and familiar process as nonexistent based on the etymology of a word stems only from your own regrettably reflexive rejection of anything involving the word "God".
I suppose that you could pretend that your mind doesn't generate ideas spontaneously. You could pretend that nobody dreams, there are no artists, no love, no desire and no imagination. I don't think you'll get far convincing anyone else though.
In reply to: You have manipulated all of your arguments for the purpose of convincing us that God does, in fact, exist.
Rufus, i'm really not very interested in whether you convert to christianity or not, and it's certainly not my aim. I don't enter into debate with you to change your mind - that's impossible. Either you change your own mind based on what you learn, or you don't. I can't change it, only you can. I debate with you to test my own ideas and to see if yours are worth adopting, and that's all.
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rufusandcompany
Sep 5, 2005, 10:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In the original Greek language, it literally means God Breathed. When the Bible claims to be inspired, we understand therefore, that it came from the mouth of God. It is God-breathed, inspired. That's right. You can read a dictionary. We're very impressed! However, inspiration now no longer refers specifically to knowledge coming from God. What it refers to is the spontaneous generation of concepts, ideas, visualisations and knowledge in the mind. That you instantly reject this very obvious and familiar process as nonexistent based on the etymology of a word stems only from your own regrettably reflexive rejection of anything involving the word "God". I suppose that you could pretend that your mind doesn't generate ideas spontaneously. You could pretend that nobody dreams, there are no artists, no love, no desire and no imagination. I don't think you'll get far convincing anyone else though. In reply to: You have manipulated all of your arguments for the purpose of convincing us that God does, in fact, exist. Rufus, i'm really not very interested in whether you convert to christianity or not, and it's certainly not my aim. I don't enter into debate with you to change your mind - that's impossible. Either you change your own mind based on what you learn, or you don't. I can't change it, only you can. I debate with you to test my own ideas and to see if yours are worth adopting, and that's all.
That information didn't come from the dictionary. I happen to be of Greek descent. Your remark was condescending. Was it a reactive comment, and what did you plan to accomplish by saying it? Do you feel threatened by my questions? If so, I have to wonder why?
In reply to: However, inspiration now no longer refers specifically to knowledge coming from God. What it refers to is the spontaneous generation of concepts, ideas, visualisations and knowledge in the mind.
I see. Is this the latest Roman Catholic interpretation of the original Greek word (theopneustos)? Remember that the church's original interpretation has been in dispute since day one. If the Roman Catholic church originally interpreted theopneustos to literally mean "God Breathed", to which god where they referring, because, as we all know, the Greeks believed in many?
In reply to: That you instantly reject this very obvious and familiar process as nonexistent based on the etymology of a word stems only from your own regrettably reflexive rejection of anything involving the word "God".
I seem to recall having told you, on several occasions, that I do not deny the existence of God. I have always maintained that I have yet to see sufficient evidence to prove God's existence. I consistantly say that I don't know if God exists. You are now putting words in my mouth.
In reply to: I debate with you to test my own ideas and to see if yours are worth adopting, and that's all.
With all due respect, how can you test your own ideas, when your mind is closed to the possibility that God does not exist and that Intelligent Design might be no more than an intriguing, albeit erroneous theory? You can't have it both ways. If you are thoroughly convinced that God exists, then what is there to test?
Are you at least willing to admit that your beliefs are based more in faith, than in an adherence to scripture as the incontrovertible evidence of the existence of God?
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cintune
Sep 5, 2005, 7:50 PM
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The god of Abraham really does owe a lot to Zeus, just as his "son" picked up a lot of fashion tips from Tammuz-Adonis. If you want the truth you have to be willing and able to look behind the curtain of scriptural propaganda.
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blondgecko
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Sep 5, 2005, 10:35 PM
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In reply to: .... Much as science objects violently to the idea of inspiration as a source of knowledge...
I don't know where you got this idea from. Many of the world's greatest scientists have openly related how their best ideas came to them more or less fully formed. The "eureka moment" is a well-accepted, important part of science. The hard work comes in the painstaking experimental work to back it up.
Most of my most important advances have happened this way.
In reply to: Science doesn't explain what inspiration is or where it comes from but there can be no doubt that the spontaneous generation of knowledge exists, and that it is no less real than knowledge gained by observation.
Actually, there's been quite a large amount of research done into this, although I'm not intimately familiar with it.
Personally, when I'm working on a difficult problem, I find that my best approach is to let my "conscious" brain wander for a while, by doing something repetitive in the lab, playing solitaire, arguing in scummunity, ... after a few hours, or even days of this, I find the answer appears more or less fully developed - your "inspiration," if you will.
This doesn't make me believe that the answer was put there by God. It just makes me think that there's a lot that goes on in the brain that we don't consciously experience.
It has been shown in a number of psych experiments that we can only consciously handle, in real-time, problems involving interactions between three or fewer variables. Add a fourth in there and we're completely at sea. Yet mathematicians and others routinely solve problems involving much larger sets. Ask them to describe how they did it, and they often won't be able to tell you. I think that's because their subconscious brain has been doing all the work.
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rufusandcompany
Sep 5, 2005, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: Tradman wrote: Science doesn't explain what inspiration is or where it comes from but there can be no doubt that the spontaneous generation of knowledge exists, and that it is no less real than knowledge gained by observation.
In reply to: Gecko wrote: Ask them to describe how they did it, and they often won't be able to tell you. I think that's because their subconscious brain has been doing all the work.
I believe that Gecko's statement is a very plausible one. I have experienced what seemed, at times, to be moments of spontaneous clarity and insight. In retrospect, it seems reasonable that they had subconsciously developed over a period of time.
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thegreytradster
Sep 6, 2005, 2:19 AM
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In reply to: The god of Abraham really does owe a lot to Zeus, just as his "son" picked up a lot of fashion tips from Tammuz-Adonis. If you want the truth you have to be willing and able to look behind the curtain of scriptural propaganda.
I beleve you've got your time line a little screwed up there fella.
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rufusandcompany
Sep 6, 2005, 2:55 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The god of Abraham really does owe a lot to Zeus, just as his "son" picked up a lot of fashion tips from Tammuz-Adonis. If you want the truth you have to be willing and able to look behind the curtain of scriptural propaganda. I beleve you've got your time line a little screwed up there fella.
Why did you even respond to that statement? lol
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cintune
Sep 6, 2005, 4:30 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: The god of Abraham really does owe a lot to Zeus, just as his "son" picked up a lot of fashion tips from Tammuz-Adonis. If you want the truth you have to be willing and able to look behind the curtain of scriptural propaganda. I beleve you've got your time line a little screwed up there fella. Why did you even respond to that statement? lol
Touchy, touchy. I'm speaking in parables, so you can make of it what you will. "Even as Olympian Zeus was to Yahweh, was not Tammuz Adonis to Yeshua in the fickle hearts of men? Yea verily. So I say unto you, worship whatever looks good (ενάρετο) and glorify its name to the exclusion of all others, for that way is bound to work out well if there are enough of you to eventually force the issue."
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tradman
Sep 6, 2005, 8:49 AM
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In reply to: Actually, there's been quite a large amount of research done into this, although I'm not intimately familiar with it.
You're right, there has. I've read some of it, and it tallies well with what you said about the 3-4 variable rule (actually what I read was a paper on the psychology of why tetris is so compulsive, but it's related :wink: ).
As an artist, I'm completely dependent on inspiration for my work. There is no rational process of design and art. I can't sit down and "work out" a design, because the process is completely unknown and is not rational. As you said, the difficult bit is getting it out of the head and onto the paper.
In reply to: how can you test your own ideas, when your mind is closed to the possibility that God does not exist and that Intelligent Design might be no more than an intriguing, albeit erroneous theory?
Oh, I have my doubts about God's existence. Much as I have faith, any enquiring mind will allow the possibility that it won't or can't find what it's looking for. However, the logical and epistemiological implications, along with the vast, almost overwhelming mass of evidence that God does exist, continue to convince me that the balance of probabilities falls very heavily in favour of her existence.
I've not decided one way or the other on ID. I do find it endlessly fascinating though that so many of those infatuated with the intellectual hide-and-seek of science will demand that the possibility that ID is wrong be unequivocally accepted, but accept no such demand on evolution.
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robbovius
Sep 6, 2005, 12:07 PM
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What's the difference between real Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
It only takes one nail to hang up the picture.
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robbovius
Sep 6, 2005, 12:11 PM
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Four nuns are standing in line at the gates of heaven. Peter asks the first if she has ever sinned.
"Well, once I looked at a man's penis," she said.
"Put some of this holy water on your eyes and you may enter heaven," Peter told her.
He then asked the second nun if she had ever sinned.
"Well, once I held a man's penis," she replied. "Put your hand in this holy water and you may enter heaven," he said.
Just then the fourth nun pushed ahead of the third nun.
"Why did you push ahead in line?" asked Peter.
"Because I want to gargle before she sits in it!" replied the nun.
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robbovius
Sep 6, 2005, 12:12 PM
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A Catholic priest, a Boy Scout leader and a lawyer take some boys out on an adventure trip. On the flight over, there is engine trouble and the plane is about to go down.
"We have a problem", says the pilot. "There are only three parachutes!"
The Boy Scout leader suggests they give them to the boys.
"Screw the boys," shouts the lawyer.
"Is there time?" asks the priest.
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robbovius
Sep 6, 2005, 12:13 PM
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Jesus walks into a motel, throws a bag of nails on the counter and says, "Can you put me up for the night?"
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robbovius
Sep 6, 2005, 12:14 PM
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Twelve priests were about to be ordained. The final test was for them to line up in a straight row, totally naked, while a beautiful, big-breasted nude model danced before them.
Each priest had a small bell attached to his penis. They were told that anyone whose bell rang when the nude model danced in front of them would not be ordained, because he had not reached a state of spiritual purity.
The beautiful model danced before the first candidate, with no reaction. She proceeded down the line with the same response from all the priests until she got to the final priest.
As she danced, his bell began to ring so loudly that it flew off and fell clattering to the ground. Embarrassed, he took a few steps forward and bent over to pick up the bell...
Then all the other bells started to ring.
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climblow
Sep 7, 2005, 10:20 PM
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Climbing is a Religion of faith,and it is a Religion... when you climb you know...
[A man is rich by what he can afford to let alone- Henry David Thoreau]
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stymingersfink
Dec 7, 2007, 6:03 AM
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[quote "climblow"]
[A man is rich by what he can afford to let alone- Henry David Thoreau][/quote]really, j_ung, Cherries?
How about a little Cherry Pie? I'll see what I can whip up, k?
Put your seatbelts on boys and girls... we're about to go on a little
Deep
Thread
Revival
For
The
Win
!!!!
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