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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 12:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Cite the numerous documented times that a climbing rope has parted because of acid. Three proven cases in Europe between 1983 and 2002: http://www.uiaa.ch/article.aspx?c=231&a=147 Btw. there are good pictures of acid damage, too.
So, are you hinting that three is numerous? I hope not. I would call three times in 20 years rare.
Lets get an idea of just how many climbing roeps are made each year, and compare that number to the three you cite.
Hmm, well, just suppose that there are three rope manufacturers, and they make 1000 ropes each per year. I will also bet that this number is an extremely LOW guesstimate.
That is 60k ropes.
And you find three that were acid damaged.
Let's see, 3/60,000.
Why, that is a very small number!
.00005 to be specific.
Still waiting for the numerous part to happen...
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tradmanclimbs
May 23, 2006, 12:45 PM
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That break looks a lot diferent that what i have seen before. I have broken quite a few ropes testing gear and knots with my plow truck and usualy the core gets really streached out and when it breaks the sheath shrinks back up the rope leaveing long strands of core sticking out. If here was chemical damage it seems likly that the rope might break quicker and therfore not streach as much leaving a cleaner break like the one in the photo???
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pendereki
May 23, 2006, 1:08 PM
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Hmmmm..
Three ropes out of 60,000 break on normal, everyday falls.....let's see, that is one out of 20,000......that seems like quite a lot to me. Enough even to quit climbing!
I think these numbers are made up! I am going to wait, to watch for more evidence. I would like to hear from BD after they have inspected the rope.
The rope is going to be sent to BD, right?!? I will have a hard time believing in the truth of any of this if the rope is not sent to the manufactuer for inspection.
Like the CCH issue, too important a topic to ignore, but.....Hmmmmmm...
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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 1:35 PM
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In reply to: Hmmmm.. Three ropes out of 60,000 break on normal, everyday falls.....let's see, that is one out of 20,000......that seems like quite a lot to me. Enough even to quit climbing! I think these numbers are made up! I am going to wait, to watch for more evidence. I would like to hear from BD after they have inspected the rope. The rope is going to be sent to BD, right?!? I will have a hard time believing in the truth of any of this if the rope is not sent to the manufactuer for inspection. Like the CCH issue, too important a topic to ignore, but.....Hmmmmmm...
What part of the term Extremely Low Guestimate did you fail to comprehend? And, while we are at it, you might just note that those three ropes had a special treatment, which I am sure rope manufacturers everywhere and to a man would advice you to forgo.
In fact, I am sure that the key notion for you here, which you so cleverly missed, is that all ropes treated with acid are suspect, and likely to fail. BTW, ALL of a group is a MUCH larger quantity than a small fraction of a group.
You can sit in the corner now, and wait for the short bus.
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skinner
May 23, 2006, 2:30 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: That break looks a lot diferent that what i have seen before. I have broken quite a few ropes testing gear and knots with my plow truck and usualy the core gets really streached out and when it breaks the sheath shrinks back up the rope leaveing long strands of core sticking out. If here was chemical damage it seems likly that the rope might break quicker and therfore not streach as much leaving a cleaner break like the one in the photo??? I agree with this. The whole crux of this matter is our inability to determine the exact history of the rope with any degree of accuracy.
I have to agree... one of the strangest breaks I have ever seen. I have never seen a rope that has broke while being used for climbing. But using old pieces to tow vehicles etc., whether they broke from the load, or the sharp edge of a bumper or frame, the sheath was always substantially unraveled and the core strands broken at random lengths.
I cut one with a knife under load once, with much the same result.. it unraveled before it actually broke.
This just looks weird, it looks much like a rope would if you were to lay it on a table and cut it with a knife, then neglect to heat-seal the ends. It will be very interesting to see the results of testing. (if we ever do)
So.. do we have to bounce test our ropes now too? :D
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j_ung
May 23, 2006, 2:33 PM
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:lol: Yes. All 60 meters of each of them.
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rockguide
May 23, 2006, 2:36 PM
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I didn't call troll on the initial posting - it had already been done. At this point it is looking real, but I still cannot rule out that it is a troll.
The internet is full of people who love to play pranks to cause people misery as an anonymous inside joke. I could well imagine someone thinking that he would cause fear in so many gym climbers everytime they are looking at a fall. The initial postings (in super topo) were supposedly made by people with new logins (I am not a member so I cannot see post history) which is the traditional troll weapon. The vagueness is another indicator.
If it is real, then there is something to learn about rope care and rope selection. As Curt indicated (and was flamed for his guess :roll: ) this happens so rarely that apart from being more picky about ropes,( in a way that is not yet clear - acid fumes?) people still need to know that they can trust a rope.
Oddly, the more rare and dramatic a problem, the more it dwells on in people's minds. The driving analogy is apt; on undivided highways I am moving a large object at high speeds facing a multi ton object moving at me at the same speed AND MISSING ME BY LESS THAN 5 FEET! :twisted: Dwelling on that makes a driver non-functional. Dwelling on the astronomically low chance of a rope breaking makes the roped climber non-functional.
Brian
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billcoe_
May 23, 2006, 3:24 PM
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In reply to: This was at Pipeworks, and it's not a hoax. I talked to the owner of the rope. The guy who fell is okay, but pretty shaken. It was his first time taking the lead test. I asked the owner of the rope if the rope had perhaps been exposed to chemicals or extreme weather and he said no. It was stored inside in a dry place. He rinsed it once in a tub using water, but that's it. I asked if maybe a rodent chewed it, and he said that the rope looked fine. I also asked how old the rope was, and he said it was only 3 years old, and had taken maybe 4 or 5 falls. I asked what brand it was, and he said Black Diamond.
Kuan, was it always stored in a rope bag? Ropes can get easily screwed up by chemicals without the owners knowledge.
For the boards information, I saw a rope separate into 2 parts while some lightweight kid was rappelling once. It caused his femur to pop out through his thigh, we were in a semi-remote location not near a phone, so we padded it, splinted it and carried/rushed the unconscious kid to a hospital. I've documented it on this site before. That was @ 29 years ago.
I suspected then that the rope owner had tossed it in his car and that battery acid may have contributed. In either case, it made me a lifelong convert to using rope bags. There are some pics on the net documenting cut vs damage breaks in ropes, the accident 29 years ago was consistent with acid damage, as this new accident also appears to be to me.
Here are the pics I'd seen off of the UIAA site. Acid effect on ropehttp://www.uiaa.ch/.../images/12003r09.jpg
http://www.uiaa.ch/.../images/12003r01.jpg
Cut rope/Sharp rock
Find that here: http://www.uiaa.ch/...cle.aspx?c=231&a=147
Compare pic one to the rope in question picture. I supose that it's possible to be a mfg defect, but that will be for testing to determine.
Meantime, as Black Diamond has done some great testing in this area previously, I'd think of send it to them for testing to determine the cause. Far as that goes, you might sent it to some independant lab for testing to ensure fairness.
I'd like to see the results of all this.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 23, 2006, 3:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Cite the numerous documented times that a climbing rope has parted because of acid. Three proven cases in Europe between 1983 and 2002: http://www.uiaa.ch/article.aspx?c=231&a=147 Btw. there are good pictures of acid damage, too.
Add at least a half dozen other cases in the US and Europe and you're starting to get the picture. Is it a lot? no. More than a few? yep. Hard to say how many since there is no organization in the US that tracks climbing equipment failure. Pretty haphazard tracking elsewhere too.
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adnix
May 23, 2006, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: Hard to say how many since there is no organization in the US that tracks climbing equipment failure. Pretty haphazard tracking elsewhere too.
So what's my point? I wouldn't be too surprised if this rope in question would have been damaged somehow. See the pictures above.
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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 4:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Cite the numerous documented times that a climbing rope has parted because of acid. Three proven cases in Europe between 1983 and 2002: http://www.uiaa.ch/article.aspx?c=231&a=147 Btw. there are good pictures of acid damage, too. Add at least a half dozen other cases in the US and Europe and you're starting to get the picture. Is it a lot? no. More than a few? yep. Hard to say how many since there is no organization in the US that tracks climbing equipment failure. Pretty haphazard tracking elsewhere too.
The picture I am getting is that you don't know when to quit Roy.
YOU claimed that this happens a lot.
IT does not.
BTW I have been informed that my stupidly low guestimate of the number of ropes produced per year is indeed stupidly low, as I intended.
So now, let's say I was off by an order of magnitude, and it is 100k ropes per year. (this is still very low)
You have 9 cases total.
9/2,000,000 (20 year totals)
Hell give yourself 100!
Of course you should not clean your rope with acid. But ropes failing from acid exposure is just not even in the same universe as you seem to think.
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pendereki
May 23, 2006, 5:15 PM
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Dirtineye, I believe you missed the point of my post, and therefore I refuse to sit in the corner. Maybe I need to learn to use emoticons. :wink:
I also missed the point of your post--sorry :oops: .
My points were:
1. A failure rate of one in 20,000 is unacceptable in a climbing rope (undamaged). :shock:
2. The fiqure above was made up by you and of no relavance to this conversation. :P
3. Most important, we should wait for results of actual expert inspection of this rope to determine the cause of failure. :!:
Also :oops: I missed the fact that your post refered to ropes damaged by acid :oops: , in my head, I was stuck on the OPs claim that the rope that is the topic of this post was not damaged by acid.
Pendereki
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kuan
May 23, 2006, 5:36 PM
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i don't know how the rope was stored. i only got to talk to the rope owner for 5 minutes. maybe i should tell him about this thread and encourage him to go online so everyone can ask him all their questions!
i do know that he sent the rope back to BD for analysis. i'm waiting for the verdict.
i'll say a little prayer before leading tonight!
k.
In reply to: In reply to: This was at Pipeworks, and it's not a hoax. I talked to the owner of the rope. The guy who fell is okay, but pretty shaken. It was his first time taking the lead test. I asked the owner of the rope if the rope had perhaps been exposed to chemicals or extreme weather and he said no. It was stored inside in a dry place. He rinsed it once in a tub using water, but that's it. I asked if maybe a rodent chewed it, and he said that the rope looked fine. I also asked how old the rope was, and he said it was only 3 years old, and had taken maybe 4 or 5 falls. I asked what brand it was, and he said Black Diamond. Kuan, was it always stored in a rope bag? Ropes can get easily screwed up by chemicals without the owners knowledge. For the boards information, I saw a rope separate into 2 parts while some lightweight kid was rappelling once. It caused his femur to pop out through his thigh, we were in a semi-remote location not near a phone, so we padded it, splinted it and carried/rushed the unconscious kid to a hospital. I've documented it on this site before. That was @ 29 years ago. I suspected then that the rope owner had tossed it in his car and that battery acid may have contributed. In either case, it made me a lifelong convert to using rope bags. There are some pics on the net documenting cut vs damage breaks in ropes, the accident 29 years ago was consistent with acid damage, as this new accident also appears to be to me. Here are the pics I'd seen off of the UIAA site. Acid effect on rope http://www.uiaa.ch/.../images/12003r09.jpg http://www.uiaa.ch/.../images/12003r01.jpg Cut rope/Sharp rock Find that here: http://www.uiaa.ch/...cle.aspx?c=231&a=147 Compare pic one to the rope in question picture. I supose that it's possible to be a mfg defect, but that will be for testing to determine. Meantime, as Black Diamond has done some great testing in this area previously, I'd think of send it to them for testing to determine the cause. Far as that goes, you might sent it to some independant lab for testing to ensure fairness. I'd like to see the results of all this. |
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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: Dirtineye, I believe you missed the point of my post, and therefore I refuse to sit in the corner. Maybe I need to learn to use emoticons. :wink: I also missed the point of your post--sorry :oops: . My points were: 1. A failure rate of one in 20,000 is unacceptable in a climbing rope (undamaged). :shock: 2. The fiqure above was made up by you and of no relavance to this conversation. :P 3. Most important, we should wait for results of actual expert inspection of this rope to determine the cause of failure. :!: Also :oops: I missed the fact that your post refered to ropes damaged by acid :oops: , in my head, I was stuck on the OPs claim that the rope that is the topic of this post was not damaged by acid. Pendereki
I missed your point because it was not relevant to my point, which was over ruling. Of course 1/20,000 would be bad for normal rope, no doubt about that whatsoever.
We were talking about acid damaged ropes, yes indeedy.
The figure was not made up, it was a stupidly low guesstimate, which as said at the time, and FYI ability to make a guestimate anywhere in the ballpark is a skill that you might want to cultivate, as it deals with the gross inumeracy in our country.
IF you would like to make your own guess, I will tell you with confidence that there are in fact 10 major climbing rope manufacturers. Tag, you're it!
Even a stupidly low number proves my point for acid damaged ropes, and that is what I was wanting to do.
BTW, I have been informed by a serious source that the actual number of ropes produced by a company is a guarded secret!!! REALLY!
SO, in closing, you still have to ride the short bus for a few days, but you can sit up front. Because I like you.
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pendereki
May 23, 2006, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: I missed your point because it was not relevant to my point, which was over ruling. Of course 1/20,000 would be bad for normal rope, no doubt about that whatsoever. We were talking about acid damaged ropes, yes indeedy. The figure was not made up, it was a stupidly low guesstimate, which as said at the time, and FYI ability to make a guestimate anywhere in the ballpark is a skill that you might want to cultivate, as it deals with the gross inumeracy in our country. IF you would like to make your own guess, I will tell you with confidence that there are in fact 10 major climbing rope manufacturers. Tag, you're it! Even a stupidly low number proves my point for acid damaged ropes, and that is what I was wanting to do. BTW, I have been informed by a serious source that the actual number of ropes produced by a company is a guarded secret!!! REALLY!
What the fuck? Did you miss the word "Sorry", or my explanation of why I said something stupid :?: Did you not see all the 'embarrassed' emoticons in my post? I have not intended to pick a fight at any point in this conversation, I just want to know why the rope broke.
I think I will walk.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 23, 2006, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: YOU claimed that this happens a lot.
No. Learn to read. I said it has happened many times and that is accurate. Never said it was common but it's far from unheard of. All the fools shouting HOAX and dreaming up conspiracy theories needed a reality check.
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paganmonkeyboy
May 23, 2006, 6:33 PM
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i think the important thing is, defect or damage or wahatever, the really important thing to not lose sight of here, is that we are all able to sit around and argue about it and call each other names - truly this is the best of all possible worlds...
i'm glad the climber is ok. i want to see test results. i own a rope from what could possibly be the same year and run from this manufacturer.
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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: YOU claimed that this happens a lot. No. Learn to read. I said it has happened many times and that is accurate. Never said it was common but it's far from unheard of. All the fools shouting HOAX and dreaming up conspiracy theories needed a reality check.
LOL, "many times" and "a lot" seem quite similar.
9 is not many, or a lot.
Give up roy. Don't be late for the short bus!
And for god's sake, stop washing your rope in battery acid!!
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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I missed your point because it was not relevant to my point, which was over ruling. Of course 1/20,000 would be bad for normal rope, no doubt about that whatsoever. We were talking about acid damaged ropes, yes indeedy. The figure was not made up, it was a stupidly low guesstimate, which as said at the time, and FYI ability to make a guestimate anywhere in the ballpark is a skill that you might want to cultivate, as it deals with the gross inumeracy in our country. IF you would like to make your own guess, I will tell you with confidence that there are in fact 10 major climbing rope manufacturers. Tag, you're it! Even a stupidly low number proves my point for acid damaged ropes, and that is what I was wanting to do. BTW, I have been informed by a serious source that the actual number of ropes produced by a company is a guarded secret!!! REALLY! What the f---? Did you miss the word "Sorry", or my explanation of why I said something stupid :?: Did you not see all the 'embarrassed' emoticons in my post? I have not intended to pick a fight at any point in this conversation, I just want to know why the rope broke. I think I will walk.
AWWW now, don't be that way.
DID I say you were stupid?
I am emoticon challenged, no wait, I don't even use emoticons, prefering to use words instead.
What part of "I like you", didn't you understand?
This is not a fight, this is joking around.
Now get back on that bus! Your taxes paid for it.
Pretend it is a Sportmobile, taking you to a nice crag.
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pendereki
May 23, 2006, 7:38 PM
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dirtineye wrote:
In reply to: AWWW now, don't be that way.
OK, I won't. I walked away and thought "darn, I was too quick with the submit button".
I am back on the bus, I packed a ham sammie--I hear we are goin' to a crag!
CM
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dirtineye
May 23, 2006, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: dirtineye wrote: In reply to: AWWW now, don't be that way. OK, I won't. I walked away and thought "darn, I was too quick with the submit button". I am back on the bus, I packed a ham sammie--I hear we are goin' to a crag! CM
H3LL yeah!!
That's the spirit!
Wanna drive?
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billcoe_
May 23, 2006, 8:26 PM
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heading back towards the origonal subject:
Kuan, the fella who fell on the rope has posted on Supertopo several times recently.
http://www.supertopo.com/...ic_id=196553&f=0&b=0
There's the link, but to sum it up, it was someone elses rope, and he's doing fine although still sore.
Was that your rope by any chance?
That's got to really F* with your mind. Glad the guy's OK. Had that been outside dogging a route in the wrong spot, we'd be having a "I've got to bury my friend" discussion.
Damn close. Glad he's kept his sense of humor: sounds like a funny guy: heres what he had to say on the Taco about the lead test he took.
" The rope belongs to my partner. I believe the history in the first post is correct. I will add that the rope was stored inside and he does not have pets that could have pissed on it. Furthermore, he has a lot of climbing experience, is a friend, and is someone I trust. The rope looks a lot better than most gym ropes. There is no damage anywhere to it except at the break. I believe it is going to be sent back to BD.
And I think they are going to make me take the test again.hahahaha."
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devils_advocate
May 23, 2006, 9:21 PM
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You guys don't know a bullet-shot rope when you see one. Two words: Grassy Knoll.
The chance of shooting a rope in California from Dallas: 1 in 20,000
That's a lot, surprised this didn't happen sooner.
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