|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 6:28 PM
Post #1 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Last night I was climbing a route in the gym and whipped when I missed a key crux dyno. As I fell, I had a brief moment to look down at the rope and I noticed that the bottom biner of my last draw was cross loaded. Well, I was airborne already, so there was nothing to do but enjoy the ride. I felt, more than heard, a rip as the rope came tight. When I stopped falling, I looked up to see that the biner had held, but the edges of the notch in the end of the gate had grabbed hold of the sheath and peeled the rope like a ripe banana. The fall exposed six to eight feet of core!
The gym uses all fixed draws and all steel hardware, which probably saved me. But, this was still a reminder that, on a wall that never gets higher than 26', every fall comes close to the ground and no catch is truly soft. It's a mistake to think that any gym is automatically safer, when in fact, in some respects, gyms are more dangerous. Let's be careful in there.
(ASIDE: To add insult to injury... I got back on the route with a new rope and when I tried to clip that same draw, I found that rope fuzz had become jammed in the gate. I couldn't get the damn thing to open! :x)
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 6:32 PM
Post #2 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
j_ung and jdouble...
Bad night to be climbing indoors with a username beginning in "j". :P
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Apr 7, 2005, 6:32 PM
Post #3 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1208
|
j_ung,
Glad you made it. Damned gyms are the most dangerous places on earth :-)
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
mr.shortround
Deleted
Apr 7, 2005, 6:34 PM
Post #4 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
EDIT: Complete misunderstanding of what happened. Don't ya love internet forums? :D
|
|
|
|
|
taualum23
Apr 7, 2005, 6:40 PM
Post #5 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 2370
|
In reply to: In reply to: s I fell, I had a brief moment to look down at the rope and I noticed that the biner was cross loaded ummm, you were attached by a biner??? Why didn't you tie in???? In reply to: the edges of the notch in the end of the gate had grabbed hold of the sheath and peeled the rope like a ripe banana You didn't even use a locking biner???? I think you need to get lessons from an experienced climber.....
I hope you are kidding, and I also hope you are wrong about what happened.
Jay was likely doing what is called "lead climbing" whereing one may clip into attached points in the wall. One does so with carabiners that are not lockers (usually), attached to "quickdraws". I imagine it is this carabiner that was crossloaded. I am guessing that he was indeed tied in.
|
|
|
|
|
neuroshock
Apr 7, 2005, 6:42 PM
Post #6 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 680
|
In reply to: In reply to: s I fell, I had a brief moment to look down at the rope and I noticed that the biner was cross loaded ummm, you were attached by a biner??? Why didn't you tie in???? In reply to: the edges of the notch in the end of the gate had grabbed hold of the sheath and peeled the rope like a ripe banana You didn't even use a locking biner???? edit: I just read your profile, 20 years climbing experience... what were you thinking????
do you use locking biners on your quickdraws?
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 6:43 PM
Post #7 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Oh shit! My bad! It was the bottom biner of the last draw I had clipped. I wasn't attached with a single nonlocker. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I've edited the post to make that more clear. Can you tell I write for a living? :oops:
|
|
|
|
|
web_slave
Apr 7, 2005, 6:43 PM
Post #8 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2003
Posts: 255
|
In reply to: In reply to: s I fell, I had a brief moment to look down at the rope and I noticed that the biner was cross loaded ummm, you were attached by a biner??? Why didn't you tie in???? In reply to: the edges of the notch in the end of the gate had grabbed hold of the sheath and peeled the rope like a ripe banana You didn't even use a locking biner???? edit: I just read your profile, 20 years climbing experience... what were you thinking????
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
buddy, just stop talking/typing...
|
|
|
|
|
bigjonnyc
Apr 7, 2005, 6:43 PM
Post #9 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2004
Posts: 369
|
hey Mr.Shortround, I don't think you really read what j_ung's post was saying. I believe the cross loaded 'biner he was referring to was the last one he clipped into on the wall, as he said he noticed rope fuzz in it on his next attempt, in which case no one would have used a locking 'biner. Next time you had ought to read a post before laying down criticism on it.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Apr 7, 2005, 6:44 PM
Post #10 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
Jay, please seek out a more experienced climber to tell you what you did wrong. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
taualum23
Apr 7, 2005, 6:45 PM
Post #11 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 2370
|
Wow. We hit him 5 times for that one. Ouch. I'm not complaining, hell, I started it.
|
|
|
|
|
nostalgia
Apr 7, 2005, 6:45 PM
Post #12 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2004
Posts: 793
|
Deleted since I saw that j_ung had changed his post. I still stick by my mr.shortbus statement, though. His post was an ignorant and unnecessary attack.
-Joe
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 6:46 PM
Post #13 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
No, no... my fault entirely. Shortround is entirely justified in misreading the post in its original form. It's changed now and the point is: gyms! be careful!
|
|
|
|
|
icarus_burned
Apr 7, 2005, 6:46 PM
Post #14 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 281
|
how did the biner get cross loaded? cant quite picture the scenario, how coud it have been prevented?
|
|
|
|
|
edge
Apr 7, 2005, 6:47 PM
Post #15 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9120
|
Jay, you gymrat!!!
May your biners all be longitudinally loaded, and your falls all be soft like Charmin (the toilet paper, it's really quite pleasant...)
|
|
|
|
|
cchildre
Apr 7, 2005, 6:49 PM
Post #16 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671
|
The inital fear would be breaking the beaner, but I never considered ripping the sheath off or compromising the core. Great report with yet another reason to watch for crossloading.
I hope you arn't going to try to wash those pants you were wearing? LMAO
|
|
|
|
|
slavetogravity
Apr 7, 2005, 6:51 PM
Post #18 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2003
Posts: 1114
|
In reply to: Last night I was climbing a route in the gym and whipped when I missed a key crux dyno. As I fell, I had a brief moment to look down at the rope and I noticed that the bottom biner of my last draw was cross loaded. Well, I was airborne already, so there was nothing to do but enjoy the ride. I felt, more than heard, a rip as the rope came tight. When I stopped falling, I looked up to see that the biner had held, but the edges of the notch in the end of the gate had grabbed hold of the sheath and peeled the rope like a ripe banana. The fall exposed six to eight feet of core!
Wow! :shock: I once saw this exact thing happen at a climbing gym I use to frequent, thankfully I wasn't the guy doing the falling. I was just one of the slack jawed spectators on the floor watching as a climber plummet from the ceiling, stopping about 6 feet from the deck. The gym owner came running over freaking out after dam near having a heart attack.
On a side note, after relating my experience on RC.com. Another user called "Bullshit" assured me that what I supposedly saw was impossible. and that I was a liar. :evil: So thanks J-ung I now feel vindicated. Sorry it had to happen at the expense of you almost dying. :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Apr 7, 2005, 6:56 PM
Post #19 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1208
|
History Note: When we brought in the first bent gate 'biners through Latok in '83 we didn't anticipate the core shot problem either. After a few complaints, manufacturers started making speed draws (thight loop at one end) and the little rubber thingys to prevent the 'biners from cross loading.
Safety Note: It's not a good idea to use tape to hold the 'biners in place. Who knows what the solvents are for the adhesives and how they react to nylon or spectra. The cheapest alternative is rubber bands but you have to replace them every few days.
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
mr.shortround
Deleted
Apr 7, 2005, 6:56 PM
Post #20 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
Since I doubt that people will read my edit, I'm posting again.
Complete miscommunication of what happened :wink:
In reply to: if he was "tied in" with a biner, it wouldn't result in 6'-8' of core, now would it?
It's early, lay off me :)
Glad that you are ok!
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 7:00 PM
Post #21 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: Since I doubt that people will read my edit, I'm posting again. Complete miscommunication of what happened :wink: Glad that you are ok!
Thanks, bro. Definitely no hard feelings here. :)
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 7:05 PM
Post #22 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: Safety Note: It's not a good idea to use tape to hold the 'biners in place. Who knows what the solvents are for the adhesives and how they react to nylon or spectra. The cheapest alternative is rubber bands but you have to replace them every few days. Mal
Thanks Mal, but our rope provider assures us that this won't be the case. We've been putting duck tape on load-bearing sections of rope for years since with no adverse effects.
But you're right, it's probably not a great idea to just stick random tape to random nylon.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 7:10 PM
Post #23 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: The inital fear would be breaking the beaner, but I never considered ripping the sheath off or compromising the core. Great report with yet another reason to watch for crossloading. I hope you arn't going to try to wash those pants you were wearing? LMAO
As luck would have it... brown pants. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
cchildre
Apr 7, 2005, 7:18 PM
Post #24 of 43
(6653 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671
|
Any pictures? That could be a great poster for "Why Crossloading is Bad"
|
|
|
|
|
cintune
Apr 7, 2005, 8:10 PM
Post #26 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1293
|
In reply to: how did the biner get cross loaded? cant quite picture the scenario, how coud it have been prevented?
Did you mean backclipped maybe? No disrespect intended, but I'm also a little hard put to picture a crossloaded quickdraw.... Got any pics?
I once used an old rope to rig a z-drag with two tiblocs while cutting down a tree. When it fell it stripped about 15 feet of of sheath just like that. Not particularly relevant, I know, but I'd never seen a rope core before that. Gave me a whole new respect for rope, and a permanent mistrust of tiblocs.
|
|
|
|
|
noell
Apr 7, 2005, 8:36 PM
Post #27 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 313
|
J_ung, you cats need to be careful down there in the Queen City!
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 7, 2005, 8:56 PM
Post #28 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: In reply to: how did the biner get cross loaded? cant quite picture the scenario, how coud it have been prevented? Did you mean backclipped maybe? No disrespect intended, but I'm also a little hard put to picture a crossloaded quickdraw.... Got any pics? I once used an old rope to rig a z-drag with two tiblocs while cutting down a tree. When it fell it stripped about 15 feet of of sheath just like that. Not particularly relevant, I know, but I'd never seen a rope core before that. Gave me a whole new respect for rope, and a permanent mistrust of tiblocs.
I'm afraid I don't have any pics. The draws in question aren't terribly tight around the bottom biner and they don't have strings to keep the biners in place. If the rope dictates, the biner turns.
|
|
|
|
|
icarus_burned
Apr 7, 2005, 9:06 PM
Post #29 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 281
|
so my new mental image is the biner gate facing down? loading across its width rather than length?
i assume it was a little bit of gate flutter during the fall that managed to snag the rope and cored it?
please correct if wrong
|
|
|
|
|
jdouble
Apr 7, 2005, 9:08 PM
Post #30 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 564
|
In reply to: j_ung and jdouble... Bad night to be climbing indoors with a username beginning in "j". :P
That's it. I'm changing my user name. If I change it to 'curt' do I get a free bottle of single malt?
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 8, 2005, 2:42 AM
Post #33 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: so my new mental image is the biner gate facing down? loading across its width rather than length? i assume it was a little bit of gate flutter during the fall that managed to snag the rope and cored it? please correct if wrong
Yes on the width-wise loading, but no on the gate flutter. The edge that did it is on the inside of the gate. There was no need for the biner to open. The rope ran across the spot right where the gate and nose meet.
|
|
|
|
|
dutyje
Apr 8, 2005, 3:01 AM
Post #34 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 727
|
Jay -
Before I forget... This exact same thing happened to Trey about 4 weeks ago. He was working a route in the cave and had clipped all the draws, but fell on his way to the shuts. He was out of gas and couldn't finish the route, so he asked to be lowered. What he hadn't noticed was that the biner on the last draw had become cross loaded. I didn't see it, either, as this was a traversing route and I was actually rather far from the draw.
Anyway, there was a ripping sound, and Trey had me immediately stop. He noticed the cross-loaded biner and relayed the information to me. He was able to get back on the wall and unweight the rope enough to re-orient the biner.
I finished lowering him and went to get a drink of water before returning to do the route myself. I found Trey with the rope coiled up and he pointed out a core shot (only about 4 inches long) about 5 feet from the end of the rope. We returned the rope to Phil, pointed out the problem, and told him how it happened.
Anyway, I'd be curious to know which draw you fell on for this to happen. I bet it's the same one (near the middle of the cave where the finish for the 5.9 jug-haul had been, and where you were setting routes on Tuesday). Happens once, maybe it's a freak accident, but twice in 4 weeks seems to be a problem. Probably time to replace that draw.
|
|
|
|
|
icarus_burned
Apr 8, 2005, 12:30 PM
Post #35 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 281
|
ah thats cleared it up now,
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Apr 8, 2005, 12:39 PM
Post #36 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: I felt, more than heard, a rip as the rope came tight. When I stopped falling, I looked up to see that the biner had held, but the edges of the notch in the end of the gate had grabbed hold of the sheath and peeled the rope like a ripe banana. The fall exposed six to eight feet of core! |
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 8, 2005, 12:42 PM
Post #37 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Joe,
It was a different draw, the second up, just over the entrance arch. But, they're all the same model of biner and draw. Maybe it's time to get draws with strings or different biners. I'll look into it. Thanks for the heads up!
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Apr 8, 2005, 12:45 PM
Post #38 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: It's not a good idea to use tape to hold the 'biners in place. Who knows what the solvents are for the adhesives and how they react to nylon or spectra. The cheapest alternative is rubber bands but you have to replace them every few days. |
|
|
|
|
michelleh
Apr 8, 2005, 1:20 PM
Post #39 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2004
Posts: 57
|
We've also used O-rings with great success, they do perish, but much slower
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Apr 8, 2005, 1:36 PM
Post #40 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
This is a good post to let everyone know that EVEN in a gym, you are responsible for inspecting equipment. Don't just assume that you are safe. I have noticed a couple times that the screwlinks on the bolt ends have been unscrewed. If you take a whipper on an open link, it can break or at the very least, bend. I came across one that wouldn't screw shut because someone fell on it.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
icarus_burned
Apr 8, 2005, 4:12 PM
Post #41 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 281
|
In reply to: In reply to: I felt, more than heard, a rip as the rope came tight. When I stopped falling, I looked up to see that the biner had held, but the edges of the notch in the end of the gate had grabbed hold of the sheath and peeled the rope like a ripe banana. The fall exposed six to eight feet of core! According to the UIAA safcom this is a real threat but no matter what they tried, they couln't break more than 3 out of 11 strands or so. It's scary but nothing to worry really.
the scary part is cutting 20 ft off your rope, or even more terrifying, having to shell for a new one
|
|
|
|
|
crimp2bfree
Apr 8, 2005, 7:30 PM
Post #42 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 5, 2005
Posts: 114
|
This incident seems like a good supporting arguement for using wire gates. It probably has more to do with the particular model of biners being used, but there are no sharp edges on a wire gate. I had a related problem with a Petzl Attache biner (gold locking ones) attacking a rope sheath. I was in the gym and had gone up to fix something. I was rapping on two strands using a petzl reverso. I hadn't notice that the biner had flipped so the skinny end was up. I started to rap, and hear a tearing noise. The hinge pin on the gate was rubbing on the rope and fraying the sheath in a nice straight line down the rope. It didn't go to the core, but frayed about a 6ft section of the sheath. I ussually worry about rocks hurting the rope, but I guess biners can do just as much damage.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 20, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #43 of 43
(5057 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Word on the street is that the gym is going to move to draws that hold the bottom biner a little tighter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
