|
|
|
|
bones
Apr 28, 2005, 6:42 PM
Post #76 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 253
|
In reply to: For those who thoroughly enjoy crack climbing, you would think that this would make it MORE fun to climb, as now you can safely attempt harder cracks, and push your limits, and not have to worry about finding the right size cam, or nut, or hex, or ham f-ing sandwich to shove into the crack. Do not get me wrong, I am not bashing on trad climbing, I have tons of respect for it, as much as every other aspect of climbing (except for slacklining on plain level ground, stupid dirty hippies with nothing better to do :lol: ), I just think that people are being totally elitist and snobby about this whole thing. Oh no, so there is a bolt there, and you brought a whole rack of gear to the crag. DON'T USE THE DAMN BOLT! In fact, don't even look at the bolt. Give it the cold shoulder, yeah, that will teach it a lesson. Give me a break, it's a frickin piece of metal, let it be...
Would YOU "let it be" if this "frickin piece of metal" were not there, necessitating that YOU actually have to place gear instead. "Whaaaaa, but I don't know how to place gear and I wan't to climb this route :cry: "
You see, a trad climber may see this bolt as you might see, Ohhh, what's something you're familiar with... little green Gumby figurines glued to you're favorite gym route.
You clearly do not understand trad climbing at all. Go back to your safe, plastic world... noob.
About Williamson Rock: As a primarily trad climber having sport climbed there numerous times, I could really care less if the two chossy cracks there were bolted.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 28, 2005, 6:46 PM
Post #77 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: About Williamson Rock: As a primarily trad climber having sport climbed there numerous times, I could really care less if the two chossy cracks there were bolted.
Precisely my point.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 28, 2005, 6:50 PM
Post #78 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
Healyje
I do believe local ethics trump the opinions of people hundreds or thousands of miles away. Such has always been the case.
I have a deep respect for the bold climbs of yesteryear, the Meadows, El Cap, the crag down the street. I 'preach' the cause of respect... respect the past, respect established lines, respect local ethics.
That renders retrobolting off route in most cases. Not all, but most. THAT is your answer to the El Cap question. It isn't an objection to bolts or how they are placed. It is a respect for the past, a positive, not a negative.
But my issue with your message isn't about retrobolting. Its about your insistence that this respect is a one way street. Because people ONCE climbed that way, you hold the position that we always have to climb that way. You ask for respect for your ethics and style, but grant none to those who fundamentally differ in outlook.
Also, I don't objectify or deify the rocks. They aren't holy and they aren't living creatures. They are rocks. Yes, we need to manage our resources, I agree. That doesn't mean one size fits all in terms of how to manage those resources however.
I say, when in Dresden, climb like they do in Dresden. And when at the local sport crag, climb like they do there.
Over lapping areas??? MUTUAL RESPECT is the key, not lofty and high-minded exclusive disrespect. The Valley is an excellent example of a place where past conflict has given way to mutual co-existence. There is no clip up El Cap sport route because of the respect of newer generations for older ones, coupled with the firm belief that reactionary climbers would chop such a climb anyway. And other crags in the Valley have well established sport climbs that have withstood scrutiny of these wouldbe reactionaries because the older generation here also respects the younger generation.
The differing styles coexist peacefully here for the most part. Hell, we even see fit to respect the aid maniacs that still bash little metal things into cracks.
Respect cannot be a one way street. And yet, that is the undertone of all your posts on the subject.
Cheers
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Apr 28, 2005, 7:38 PM
Post #79 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
The I have no problem with the two-way street aspect of respect. But the issue isn't simply about respect - it's about how we choose to use or abuse rock and about baseline ethics of fixed pro. Don't get me wrong, I'll use and even install fixed pro if I think it's warranted, but never by a protectable feature. Not that anyone's shopping for it, but bolting next to protectable features is never going to get my respect - it's the clearcutting issue. Would it kill you or someone else spending the day at Dishman to throw two cams in their bag - I don't think so. If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen. Take it as you will.
I don't "diefy" the rock - I do respect it, however, and attempt to leave it as close to it's natural state as possible at all times. Again, it's about baseline ethics. Where do the lines get drawn? Out at Dishman there is a vandal who has repeatedly chipped, bolted on holds (currently cleaned off), and from the look of it is still marking the names of the routes out there. It's not my area, though I'm in Spokane fairly often as my wife is from there; do I ascede to the locals and say hey, names on routes are the new Euro gig, what's the problem? Or do I go out there and clean the rock off next time I'm out? What would you do?
The only reason the Valley hasn't turned into a near-murderous bolt war is the feds stepped in - otherwise heads would have rolled long ago. Do you really think the new generations of [sport] "young guns" visiting the Valley will share your respect for old, bold routes of old. Mutual coexistence there is principally maintained by federal intervention and public dollars - it would be a brutal and repetitious vertical free for all if they hadn't.
Part of respecting the past is knowing it. Bolting protectable features has no legitimate past I know of - only a present and future slowly being legitimized with every successive bolt placed next to protectable features simply for the sake of convenience without someone speaking up.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Apr 28, 2005, 7:56 PM
Post #80 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: I hate to see a bolted crack if it'll take pro. But I saw something that was worse yet. A couple of "dudes" climbed this .11a finger tip crack in the City of Rocks that was bolted, clipping every bolt along the way. Then they proclaimed at the top that it was ridiculous to have a bolted crack, at which point they rapped off and removed every bolt hanger along the way. I wouldn take issue with it if they had place all their own gear on the way up but this was ridiculous.
I agree, pretty stupid...
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Apr 28, 2005, 8:06 PM
Post #81 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: It sounds like there is/was a group of climbers there who made use of their local resource in the manner they saw fit.
They also "saw fit" to chip, bolt on holds, and paint route names on the rock and beta on the moves - so that works for you no doubt as well.
In reply to: Meanwhile, he'll tell stories about a friend who broke his back toproping a steep overhang, or his 5.11x FA. I'm sure those lines get done a lot.
I've only brought up last fall's 5.11c R FA a couple of time in a context where someone questions my experience and how recent it is.
In reply to: I'm sure those lines get done a lot. I'll even go out on a limb here and say they're stupid and should be retroed.
I didn't put up either line so they'd "get done", both routes 29 years apart got put up for exactly the same reason - I got obssessed about a line, it had nothing to do with today's version of "community service". Now you may be clueless enough to label them "stupid", but come up to PDX and have a go on the latest one - you certainly have me convinced you'd be reaching for a drill in a heartbeat...
|
|
|
|
|
chuffer
Apr 28, 2005, 8:16 PM
Post #82 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2004
Posts: 135
|
In reply to: The only reason the Valley hasn't turned into a near-murderous bolt war is the feds stepped in - otherwise heads would have rolled long ago. Do you really think the new generations of [sport] "young guns" visiting the Valley will share your respect for old, bold routes of old.
Don't you think it's ironic that the same folks chopping the bolts in these near murderous bolt wars you refer to were still out there happily nailing there way up the newest A4 testpieces?
I'm amazed that you keep refering to Yosemite in your argument about those evil bolts while completely disregarding the fact that many of the hardest free walls out there are nearly completely manufactured from years of pin scars. Ever hear of constructive cleaning? Would a camaflouged hangar from the beginning really have been worse than that ugly pin scar that eventually resulted in a flared nut placement?
Now, I'm not knocking all of the nailing that has been done in the valley so please don't take it that way. I just find some of the arguments a little bit hypocritical. Somehow is OK to bang in a pin but it's unethical to drill a bolt. Just because that bong is removable doesn't make it somehow less damaging than a bolt.
Trad climbing is trad climbing. If a crack is protectable with gear then it does not need bolts. However, if an area has 300 pure sport routes and one of them has 10 feet of protectable crack somewhere in the middle I'm not going to fly into a rage over it. Nor will I huff and puff at a trad area if someone has placed a single bolt to avert a 30' runout in a blank section. Local ethics rule, and if those local ethics DO result in access issues and overcrowding then it is those same locals that will have to live with those results. There are other things in the world much more deserving of my anger.
Jeremy
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Apr 28, 2005, 8:21 PM
Post #83 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: Would it kill you or someone else spending the day at Dishman to throw two cams in their bag - I don't think so. If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen.
This is the fundamental difference. Throw two cams in the bag? there's 100 bucks worth of gear. Plus, you have to know which cams to take, which means you'd better own the guidebook.
Now, if this was a crag with lots of trad climbs, I'd say sure. But the climbs are sport climbs. You're talking about 2 individual gear placements. What's the point? The 'challenge' or 'adventure' of plugging one cam and then clipping 8 bolts? Are you respecting the rock? Respecting the .75 camalot crack?
You know what? Forget it. We're never going to make any inroads here. You've ignored everyone's opinion, and persist with your fire and brimstone/heads rolling in Yosemite nonsense.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Apr 28, 2005, 8:47 PM
Post #84 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: Don't you think it's ironic that the same folks chopping the bolts in these near murderous bolt wars you refer to were still out there happily nailing there way up the newest A4 testpieces?
Steep Valley aid climbs have always been steep Valley aid climbs - pretty much nothing has changed about them other than the cast of characters. I don't hear about an A4 going free very often.
In reply to: I'm amazed that you keep refering to Yosemite in your argument about those evil bolts while completely disregarding the fact that many of the hardest free walls out there are nearly completely manufactured from years of pin scars. Ever hear of constructive cleaning? Would a camaflouged hangar from the beginning really have been worse than that ugly pin scar that eventually resulted in a flared nut placement?
I keep referring to Yosemite as it would appear to be Dingus' stone of choice and because it is sort of the collective "vatican" of climbing. I can't say a camo hanger would have been worse, the damage was done though way before camo'ed hangers came along. And when was the last time you saw a camo hanger - still don't see many going in.
In reply to: Now, I'm not knocking all of the nailing that has been done in the valley so please don't take it that way. I just find some of the arguments a little bit hypocritical. Somehow is OK to bang in a pin but it's unethical to drill a bolt. Just because that bong is removable doesn't make it somehow less damaging than a bolt.
I agree, pins going in and out damage rock, it's back to the issue of responsible use of fixed pro regardless of whether it's a pin or a bolt. In most areas outside of the Valley itoday, if pins go in they should probably stay in permanently. It's about fixed pro of all types, though, not pins vs. bolts. I'd feel the same way if I found a two inch angle in a protectable crack at Dishman (except I'd now have that angle in the basement).
|
|
|
|
|
chuffer
Apr 28, 2005, 8:54 PM
Post #85 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2004
Posts: 135
|
In reply to: I don't hear about an A4 going free very often.
Sure you do. They just aren't A4 any longer by that point. Repeated nailing has reduced them to A1 or A2 by the time they go free.
Jeremy
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 28, 2005, 8:56 PM
Post #86 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen.
Then you should refrain from visiting sport climbing areas that employ these techniques.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Apr 28, 2005, 8:57 PM
Post #87 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: In reply to: I don't hear about an A4 going free very often. Sure you do. They just aren't A4 any longer by that point. Repeated nailing has reduced them to A1 or A2 by the time they go free. Jeremy
Like I said, I don't really hear about any A4's going free. You're talking about a different phenom entirely.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Apr 28, 2005, 9:00 PM
Post #88 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: In reply to: If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen. Then you should refrain from visiting sport climbing areas that employ these techniques. DMT
And when these sport techniques visit your 10 trad areas, what then...?
|
|
|
|
|
chuffer
Apr 28, 2005, 9:08 PM
Post #89 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2004
Posts: 135
|
In reply to: And when these sport techniques visit your 10 trad areas, what then...?
Then the offenders should be schooled on the local ethics of THAT AREA, which they would then be expected to respect. A nice guy might even return their hangars to them and give them directions to an area whose ethics they might find more appealing.
Jeremy
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 28, 2005, 9:11 PM
Post #90 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen. Then you should refrain from visiting sport climbing areas that employ these techniques. DMT And when these sport techniques visit your 10 trad areas, what then...?
More than likely I'll go check out the routes and give em a go. Considering the work done on nearby crags, I'm guessing they will be good routes that do not retro the lines already established.
There is a lot of mutual respect here in California. Probably part of that sunny live and let live lifestyle outsiders like to make fun of. Oh well.
I'm just sorry such is not the case where ever you climb.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
boadman
Apr 28, 2005, 9:15 PM
Post #91 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 7, 2003
Posts: 726
|
What if you're not 10? What if you're chinese or south american and you only make 2000$/year and you can barely afford a rope, harness, and shoes?
In reply to: word to that s--- fshizzle. flame me for this if you feel the need. but i will always feel a sense of loss and disgust when i see a protectable crack with bolts next to it. not trying to be a hardman tough guy. just seems really dumb and unnecessary. also please don't try the "fair access to all climbers / what if i can't afford trad gear cuz iam 10 yrs old?" argument. it is weak and played, and makes ray bradbury spin like a f---ing top in his grave. give the man some peace and quiet... commies! heh. |
|
|
|
|
golsen
Apr 28, 2005, 9:21 PM
Post #92 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
Bolting good cracks sucks. but...
One of the first "areas" I decided to put sport routes up on was in 1988. We did a route that was 160' long and we placed about 14 bolts. There was a spot after the crux but still 11ish climbing that could take a #4 Rock. We chose not to bolt it. We tried in guides to tell other climbers to take small wireds. Now, nearly every other climb in that area was bolt protected. I dont know if someone ever retrobolted that part of the climb. I hope so. The current guides do not tell anyone to take a rock and it would appear from the ground that your protected wi QDs.
While I abhor bolting for convenience, I do belive that if you are putting in predominantly bolted routes, expecting later climbers to know what gear you took is lame. I particularly dislike those that toprope hard to protect routes on the FA then expect others to to do it GU.
If GU were the ethic for all FA's then the world would be a different place but it is not so. In the case I mentioned above we inadvertantly left a dangerous place. Furthermore, a person was later killed on that climb when a loose rock fell off and killed the belayer. We had tried to make the climb as safe as possible but with the weathering that takes place on that cliff it was bound to have loose rocks appear that werent there for the FA party.
I think that it has to do with the style of the FA party and the local ethics. We should have placed a bolt instead of relying on people to take small wireds but this was in the 80's and we were all still learning about sport climbing then.
If you do something GU, then great. The playing field is even. If you are tring then it is not "fair" to expect others to carry the right gear. There is no substitute for good judgement. To paraphrase a great climber, "are you willing to judge the boldness of future climbers?"
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
Apr 28, 2005, 9:27 PM
Post #93 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
In reply to: What if you're not 10? What if you're chinese or south american and you only make 2000$/year and you can barely afford a rope, harness, and shoes? In reply to: word to that s--- fshizzle. flame me for this if you feel the need. but i will always feel a sense of loss and disgust when i see a protectable crack with bolts next to it. not trying to be a hardman tough guy. just seems really dumb and unnecessary. also please don't try the "fair access to all climbers / what if i can't afford trad gear cuz iam 10 yrs old?" argument. it is weak and played, and makes ray bradbury spin like a f---ing top in his grave. give the man some peace and quiet... commies! heh.
If youn can't afford good gear or a rope then you inadvertantly gain yourself the greatest of all belays and safety devices....the mind belay...nothing is better in all of climbing than knowing for yourself what you can and cannot safely climb....just dont FU....
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Apr 28, 2005, 9:29 PM
Post #94 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
What if you are from Uranus and have 6 rectums?
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 28, 2005, 9:31 PM
Post #95 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
One quick local example to drive the point home that the sky is not falling in...
The Grotto is a sport climbing area located on Table Mtn near Sonora. It has been a sport climbing area since day one and was developed in part by local trad climbers such as Grant Hiskes, Peter Croft, Dave Shultz, etc.
There are two types of climbing there... bolted face climbs and splitter crack climbs. While the area has seen development from old hardmen, it has also seen plenty of youngster and noobie activity, as evidenced by route names such as Senior Project and AC Devil Dog (some kid's older brother's handle as a chopper pilot in the army).
You would think, with the doomesaying, etc. that the cracks at the Grotto would be grid bolted, correct?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=50517
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=16895
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=16930
But they aren't. There is one crack system that has bolts next to it that were placed for another route in such a way so they could be used for both, Moss Critique and To Pin or Not to Be. I've done To Pin with and without the bolts, tain't no biggie. In that first image there is a bolt level with the climbers ass, but about 10 feet to his right, protecting a seldom done lead. I've also seen that bolt bypassed (by a more able climber than me).
Other than those, the cracks there are quite pristine, though they all have bolted anchor stations and can be treated mentally, like sport climbs.
There are a few reasons I'm sure why they aren't bolted... respect for the FA parties (Hiskes, Croft, et al), the fact there are enough cracks to warrant toting a rack, many climbers use these cracks as practice for 'the real thing' and enjoy placing pro.
What is most common, for noob and old spray lords like me and hardwomen in between, however, is to show up and climb the shit out of every thing in sight.
Warm up on a couple of 5 bolt face climbs. Crank a few of the crack test pieces. Maybe take a swing at one of the headwall sport routes.
You don't hear a lot of disrespect between trad and sport there. That's because there isn't any. Its usually the same folks.
It's all just a hole in the ground and prior to the implementation of spor climbing, no one climbed there. It is an example, a great example, of mutual respect... for the past, for styles, for development with a conservative mind, for live and let live.
Anyone who goes to the Grotto and bitches about the bolts doesn't belong there and isn't welcome.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Apr 28, 2005, 11:11 PM
Post #96 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
The Grotto sounds like you guys have achieved a perfect balance. It also sounds like the rock lends itself to establishing and maintaining that balance. Again, I have no real problem with appropriately bolted face climbs or any other unprotectable routes - only with bolts next to protectable features. The routes out at Dishman look first rate, but the bolts on Klingon are both unnecessary on look like they have to be navigated around footwise, but until I get on it I can't say that for sure...
|
|
|
|
|
litedawg
Apr 28, 2005, 11:37 PM
Post #97 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2001
Posts: 337
|
bolt the hell out of it!
It is my opinion that there aren't nearly enough bolted routes.
Just because there is a bolt there doesn't mean you have to clip it.
Why should you trad monkeys get al the good routes. I want to play too. I think every route should be bolted, they don't get in the way of the trad climber, and they open the route up to the sport climber as well.
|
|
|
|
|
lazyjammin
Apr 28, 2005, 11:45 PM
Post #98 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2004
Posts: 200
|
It seems to me that if the bolts were placed by the first ascentionist then they should be left alone out of respect. The same way one would wish their climb would be respected if it were trad or runout.
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Apr 28, 2005, 11:51 PM
Post #99 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
In reply to: As I've said elsewhere, in spite of all the growth in their sport surfers are lucky - you can't bolt waves. You still have to come up with same skill and stones as you parents or grandparents did if you want to ride Pipeline on a big day (regardless of whether they build a McDonalds on the beach or not...)
Ah, the boldness thing again.
I don't think you fully understand that the old-school emphasis on showing your "stones" is not considered important from the sport climbing perspective. Evil Knieval style tricks may be (mentally) difficult to accomplish, but sport climbing is about difficult movement, and there's no question that the new generation has "come up with" far more skill at the actual movement of climbing than their "parents and grandparents". This isn't just an issue of bolts: it's evident on (unbolted) boulders as well. That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected.
8^)
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Apr 29, 2005, 1:12 AM
Post #100 of 237
(18138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected. 8^)
Those sport climbers tend to fall and get hurt on those trad 11's, because for one thing, PLACING THE GEAR IS NOT JUST A SKILL, IT TAKES ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH TO HANG IN THERE AND DO IT, and for another, trad climbs have so many different techniques compared to sport climging that your average sport climber will have a melt down and not even know where to begin on some of your more bizzare trad climbs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
