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caughtinside
May 2, 2005, 5:49 PM
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Soloing steep overhangs. Onsight. Great idea.
As for the dude who thinks that cracks should be bolted so he can afford to climb them, good grief! GOTY candidate for sure. You don't have to have a rack to climb cracks. But it helps to have access to a rack. make some friends, dude. Every sport costs money, biking, hiking, camping, skiing, and college kids trad climb all over the place. Sheesh.
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piton
May 2, 2005, 5:57 PM
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bod19acient wroteIn reply to: Climbers didn't rally around Ken for a number of reasons. One: is he is off-his rocker. Two: it was his way or no way. Three: he thought he and only he own the rock and he would be the choosen one that would tell other climbers what to climb and how to climb.
that is a bunch of BS almighty Bob! who gives you the freakin right to go bolt all over the place, besides yourself. from the looks of it out in colorado you have you own agenda putting up lame ass bolted routes. You know exactly why the whole bolting war started unless all that drilling numbed your skull. plus it sounds like you're a little jealous of Ken. when was the last time you did 20 laps on supercrack? or when was the last time you did supercrack i'm guessing Never. imo ken is a good guy.
get over yourself Bob
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dingus
May 2, 2005, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: There are several Tuolomne routes that were put up as solos that have been respected.
An ironic twist is that one of the guys who established some of those climbs has expressed regret, right here on rc.com, for doing them as free solos and has openly advocated retrobolting them. I think he even said he would pay for the bolts and mayhaps may get around to doing it himself.
But I don't think that dude, back in the day, went around telling everyone that because he free soloed first ascents everyone else had to as well. I don't think he traveled to Smith Rock and chopped every route he could get his chisel on.
He evolved and so did his style of climbing.
I think a few hook protected leads, a few free solo first ascents, SHOULD BE RESPECTED. I have advocated as much. But respect is a two way street... if these sorts of FA's are to be respected than their advocates had best learn how to build that respect in younger generations. Dissing today's climbers is pretty much the wrong way to go.
The old school will never win through force.
DMT
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healyje
May 2, 2005, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: But Ken and crew were undeniably putting up the vast majority of new routes in CT and had been for a long time - their's, however strange, was the "local ethic" and people should have either repected it, or top roped as far as I'm concerned ( and according to all your's and other's "local ethics" talk). Which is it - "Local ethics" or "local ethics we happen to like"? The one's we happen to like of course. And more importantly, the ones deserving of our respect. And that is the truth and always has been. Nichols thought that since he was alpha male lead dog he could dictate to all other route developers the style with which they had to practice. He was WRONG. Taped hooks as part of a baseline ethic... OK bro, if you say so! But I suspect any 'baseline' including such extreme bull s--- is doomed to fail. Taking the position that taped hooks are the only valid lead method was not respected, nor should it have been. Hell, Ed Leeper saw fit to run a national ad warning folks not to use his hooks for that purpose. DMT
No, it wasn't "part of a baseline ethic" - it was a pretty damn strange local interpretation/implementation of the baseline "clean climbing" ethic of the time. And only rarely was a hook ever taped, the vast majority were tensioned to the ground with 5mm down to a stretch of rope between two trees - the route would end up draped with tensioned 5mm. And they by and large didn't fall on the hooks; they were rather absolute masters at downclimbing and gently body-weighting onto the hooks to be lowered. I watched some of the burliest 12+ downclimbing on earth that day.
And yeah, Ed took out that ad and I would have too if I were him. But, again, Ken wrote the book on CT and put up almost all the routes so again, by your logic, their way - their ethics (and it wasn't just him) - should have been respected. And your "the ones deserving of our respect" comment belies a belief in some form of operating collective group judgement or baseline ethic (of what stripe it's hard to tell) and don't really believe your own talk of local ethics rule - and that's the problem with local ethics. When do you (personally, as someone with a cultivated on-line presence here and elsewhere) call bullshit on "bad" local ethics such as at Dishman with bolted-on-holds and painting the rock? Or "Ignorance [Is] Bliss" in the Cascades?
And then there is the ever present "Prevailing Ethics" the close cousing of "Local Ethics" which basically means if Trad guys move out it's ok to let fly with drills. Sport climbing so far has had no shortage of lexical excuses for spraying bolts when and where it pleases in a pretty relentless march on most areas.
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piton
May 2, 2005, 6:16 PM
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dingusIn reply to: And that is the truth and always has been. Nichols thought that since he was alpha male lead dog he could dictate to all other route developers the style with which they had to practice. He was WRONG. Taped hooks as part of a baseline ethic... OK bro, if you say so! But I suspect any 'baseline' including such extreme bull shit is doomed to fail. Taking the position that taped hooks are the only valid lead method was not respected, nor should it have been. Hell, Ed Leeper saw fit to run a national ad warning folks not to use his hooks for that purpose.
yeah and this is coming from a Arkansas climber, huh! well like you said you're a under achiever climber. maybe if you were putting up routes like Ken, which preserved the rock maybe one day for natural protection you might get it. Hell Ken even placed bolts when nothing else was available (creation of the world). So i'm guessing you are going to diss the Huber's for leading a pitch up on El Cap with bashies. Alex told me the reason he put a lot of bashies in was to slow him down before he hit a ledge in case of a fall.
OK bro, just be sure to be closed minded
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dingus
May 2, 2005, 6:31 PM
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In reply to: yeah and this is coming from a Arkansas climber, huh! well like you said you're a under achiever climber. maybe if you were putting up routes like Ken, which preserved the rock maybe one day for natural protection you might get it.
How many hook protected free climbs have you established in Arkansas?
DMT
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dingus
May 2, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: When do you ( personally, as someone with a cultivated on-line presence here and elsewhere) call s--- on "bad" local ethics such as at Dishman with bolted-on-holds and painting the rock?
I don't climb at Dishman. I've never been to Dishman.
But to answer your question, off the cuff,
1. I argued with the author of a few of the Meadows free solo routes to leave them be and not retrobolt them.
2. I dissed Smith and Cosgrove in a national magazine over the Muir Wall power bolting thing (and earned my name in the process).
3. I got bent out of shape over some retrobolts that appeared on an insignificant Bridwell route (about which he could not have cared less, and yes, I asked him).
4. About the Jardine traverse on the Nose of El Cap.
5. About Leo Houlding bolting claiming the FFA of West Face of Leaning Tower after aiding the first two pitches.
6. Can't say I'm fond of the notion of his hood ornament on El Cap, but I see that as a singularity at present.
7. The impact of sport climing, and Dan Osman in particular, at Cave Rock. But I must admit I go back and forth on that one and am currently of the opinioin that the reasoning behind the climbing ban there now is unconstitutional.
Places where I have not:
1. E####ants Grave$$rd... power bolted sport climbing just inside a *new* wilderness boundary, within sight of a well traveled road where no previous climbing was reported.
2. A few sport areas in Yosemite.
3. A few sport areas sprinkled near and far in the Sierra.
Later!
DMT
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jt512
May 2, 2005, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I personally would rather lead a one pitch route trad or if that wasn't possible top rope it... Top roping steep climbs is, frankly, lame. The rope is constantly in your face; it's weight tends to pull you off the route; and to get back on the route after a fall to work the moves -- largely the point of sport climbing -- you have to unclip the rope from directionals, necessitates bolts anyway, and is more awkward than clipping on lead. -Jay I agree, if you're frankly so lame you're only capable of dogging your way up them... Actully, don't dog and skip the directionals, skip all bolts - if you fall, you fly. It's ground up by definition and to "work the moves" your mind just has to peddle harder, faster, and under pressure to put up steep overhangs and roofs on a top-rope with no pre-inspection, no rapping, no cleaning, and most of all no dogging. In reality it can be pretty damn stout and a hell of a lot harder than dogging up a line of bolts. It has more in common with deep water soloing than sport climbing.
Exactly. But we were taling about sport climbing.
-Jay
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billcoe_
May 2, 2005, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: http://www.cutefunnyanimals.com/Funny/0003.jpeg --- Ok: now that the squirrel balls photo has shown up, can we declare this thread dead yet? Shouldn't there some sort of a Godwin's Law type of rule relating to this sort of thing? ;)
Sorry dude, I tried to head this off back on page 1, saw it coming, so better just brace yourself for another 20 pages of name calling. Not by me, I have too much respect for some of these guys like Healje or Bobd.
Besides that, Im all sore from climbing last weekend and feel wussy-like, too much so to get wrapped up in an arguement where at least 90% of the folks are wrong, and I'm probably climbing worse than all of them right now.. ...
Brace yourself for more of it. This must be the process of how John Bacher got worn out. Maybe it's like swimming upstream, pretty soon ya just say...why?
Regards to everybody still civil!
Bill
BTW (added) : all this has been discussed at the Hard Pipe Swingers Co-alition meetings in a much humorous manner long before this thread: http://www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/ Check out issues 4 onwards specifically.
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atchafalaya
May 2, 2005, 9:21 PM
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yawn... back in the day... blah, blah, blah... old school... zzzzzzzzzzzzz
the funniest thing about ethics is that they are personal. When I took the bosch up to the sierras and donner area this weekend, I did not give one thought to what dingus, healyJ, or any other internet persona thought was appropriate for where I should place some bolts. Harding lives...
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fracture
May 2, 2005, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I personally would rather lead a one pitch route trad or if that wasn't possible top rope it... Top roping steep climbs is, frankly, lame. The rope is constantly in your face; it's weight tends to pull you off the route; and to get back on the route after a fall to work the moves -- largely the point of sport climbing -- you have to unclip the rope from directionals, necessitates bolts anyway, and is more awkward than clipping on lead. -Jay I agree, if you're frankly so lame you're only capable of dogging your way up them...
The dogging has a purpose (namely, eventually redpointing it). Far from being lame, the concept of systematic hangdogging is, imho, probably the best development that's ever happened to the sport of rock climbing. A more important innovation than sticky rubber, chalk, stick clips, or cams (Jardine deserves credit for innovation on more grounds than just Friends).
Of course, on boulders people have been "working" moves forever. In light of which, it's frankly incomprehensible to me that the old "ground up" religion persisted as long as it did....
In reply to: Actully, don't dog and skip the directionals, skip all bolts - if you fall, you fly. It's ground up by definition and to "work the moves" your mind just has to peddle harder, faster, and under pressure to put up steep overhangs and roofs on a top-rope with no pre-inspection, no rapping, no cleaning, and most of all no dogging. In reality it can be pretty damn stout and a hell of a lot harder than dogging up a line of bolts. It has more in common with deep water soloing than sport climbing.
This is my (and Jay's) point. In case you haven't realized: sport climbing is about making everything as easy and convenient as possible (except, of course, the actual climbing, which you try to make as hard as possible). The fact that it is harder to toprope is exactly why we don't want to do it. The focus on unfettered movement in a safe environment certainly does not logically lead to your no-dogging pseudo-GU death-toprope style of ascent.
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jt512
May 2, 2005, 11:06 PM
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In reply to: So you comin out to climb on limestone with me this summer or what, Jay? :wink:
Sure, Ike. You can warm up on my projects while I project your warm-ups. At least we'll be able to climb the same routes.
-Jay
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ikefromla
May 2, 2005, 11:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: So you comin out to climb on limestone with me this summer or what, Jay? :wink: Sure, Ike. You can warm up on my projects while I project your warm-ups. At least we'll be able to climb the same routes. -Jay
I cannot believe this thread is still going. :roll:
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golsen
May 2, 2005, 11:25 PM
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It warms my heart to see that this thread is steering its way to civility...Is everyone done pissing into the wind?
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healyje
May 2, 2005, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: The dogging has a purpose (namely, eventually redpointing it). Far from being lame, the concept of systematic hangdogging is, imho, probably the best development that's ever happened to the sport of rock climbing. A more important innovation than sticky rubber, chalk, stick clips, or cams (Jardine deserves credit for innovation on more grounds than just Friends).
This is and was the heart of the disagreement between the camps. I'd say I'm done as I'm basically still old school in that I think the trade off of dogging for difficulty, while maybe worth it to produce a few stellar climbers, resulted in the wholesale mechanization of rock (bolting) and from all the talk of leading trad way below sport levels didn't buy all that much for the average climber in terms of skills beyond dogging it up a line of bolts...
Signing off on this one...
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jt512
May 3, 2005, 12:01 AM
Post #191 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: The dogging has a purpose (namely, eventually redpointing it). Far from being lame, the concept of systematic hangdogging is, imho, probably the best development that's ever happened to the sport of rock climbing. A more important innovation than sticky rubber, chalk, stick clips, or cams (Jardine deserves credit for innovation on more grounds than just Friends). This is and was the heart of the disagreement between the camps. I'd say I'm done as I'm basically still old school in that I think the trade off of dogging for difficulty, while maybe worth it to produce a few stellar climbers, resulted in the wholesale mechanization of rock (bolting)...
Healyje, regarding the sport climbing revolution: your side lost.
-Jay
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jt512
May 3, 2005, 12:13 AM
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In reply to: I cannot believe this thread is still going. :roll:
Why, you new around here?
-Jay
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billcoe_
May 3, 2005, 12:17 AM
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In reply to: Healyje, regarding the sport climbing revolution: your side lost. -Jay
I do not think you are even speaking the same language to be able to make that statement Jay. Is it really about "winning" and "losing". What is really being won and loss my friend?
It's much much more than just clipping bolts.
Think it over. I'm done.
Bill
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blondgecko
Moderator
May 3, 2005, 12:49 AM
Post #194 of 237
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In reply to: I am a proud, as well as long standing, member of Towson's Rock Climbing Contingent :D (not sure why they decided to call it "contingent," instead of club, but oh well, haha), joined the first week I was at the school. I am not sure what elitist has to do with anything, not sure why that was put in there, or to what "image" you refer to me being afraid of tarnishing... I sure wish we had some gear to use for the club, but sorry, we don't. We are one of the least funded sport clubs on campus, so as such we don't have access to the fundage necessary to buy a good rack. You expressed some valid points up until your last commment, not sure why you felt compelled to put that in, but I suppose I will ignore it :roll: ...
Wait... how many people are there in your club? 10? 20? 50? Let's say 10. You can't afford $50 each to buy a shared rack?
Wow. I guess you really are poor.
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dm
May 3, 2005, 2:39 AM
Post #195 of 237
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In reply to: This is my (and Jay's) point. In case you haven't realized: sport climbing is about making everything as easy and convenient as possible (except, of course, the actual climbing, which you try to make as hard as possible). The fact that it is harder to toprope is exactly why we don't want to do it. The focus on unfettered movement in a safe environment certainly does not logically lead to your no-dogging pseudo-GU death-toprope style of ascent.
"WE sportclimbers lead climb because it's more convenient to us"... "You non-sportclimbers don't understand our sport"... "OUR side has won"...
Personally, I could care less what YOUR SPORTCLIMBERS' idea of YOUR SPORT is except for one thing: The rock you climb does not belong to you (well, unless you own it). It does not belong to the FA'ist either so I don't buy this "prevalent etics" or the "whatever the FA'ist did was good" thingy - what if whoever did the first ascent was a moron? What if a bunch of idiots with drills and chainsaws bolted the hell out of a crag and cut the trees around it - should we all do it because it's a prevalent ethics in the area?
So just please remember: whatever your reason is for climbing rocks, you're not the only one out there. Come to think of it, if "unfettered movement in a safe environment" is your goal, why not doing your gymnastics in a gym? There you can achieve your ideal: No bugs, no rain, 100% safe... not to mention unlimited route selection potential: it's only limited by your imagination. Why is that olympic swimmers compete in swimming pools, not rivers, high jump competition does not involve jumping over horses and archers shoot targets not live animals? Why do you insist on climbing real rocks?
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112
May 3, 2005, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: Come to think of it, if "unfettered movement in a safe environment" is your goal, why not doing your gymnastics in a gym? There you can achieve your ideal: No bugs, no rain, 100% safe... not to mention unlimited route selection potential: it's only limited by your imagination. Why is that olympic swimmers compete in swimming pools, not rivers, high jump competition does not involve jumping over horses and archers shoot targets not live animals? Why do you insist on climbing real rocks?
:D :lol: :D :shock: :D :lol: :D
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bobd1953
May 3, 2005, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: that is a bunch of BS almighty Bob! who gives you the freakin right to go bolt all over the place, besides yourself. from the looks of it out in colorado you have you own agenda putting up lame ass bolted routes. You know exactly why the whole bolting war started unless all that drilling numbed your skull. plus it sounds like you're a little jealous of Ken. when was the last time you did 20 laps on supercrack? or when was the last time you did supercrack i'm guessing Never. imo ken is a good guy. get over yourself Bob
Have done it. I not jealous of Ken or you or any other climber. In fact a number of my bolted routes are consider classic! How many have you done dip-shit??
I do have an agenda and it is giving something back to climbing other than cheap-ass-talk on the internet.
I gave myself to the right to bolt. You got a problem with that...do something about it.
Also the people who find the routes I do enjoyable. Shelf Road and Penitente Canyon are two of the most popular sport-climbing areas in Colorado.
I get this strange feeling that you are just a little weasel who likes to mouth-off.
It does not suprised me in the least that you look up to Ken...bird of a feather.
I would also put my trad-record up to yours anyday. Wanna call me names, do it person...then we can take it from there!
Also on a different note. I am wireless from Socorro, NM after a great day of bouldering near Spook Canyon. The bouldering was wonderful and the desert wildflowers are going wild!
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piton
May 3, 2005, 11:51 AM
Post #198 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: that is a bunch of BS almighty Bob! who gives you the freakin right to go bolt all over the place, besides yourself. from the looks of it out in colorado you have you own agenda putting up lame ass bolted routes. You know exactly why the whole bolting war started unless all that drilling numbed your skull. plus it sounds like you're a little jealous of Ken. when was the last time you did 20 laps on supercrack? or when was the last time you did supercrack i'm guessing Never. imo ken is a good guy. get over yourself Bob Have done it. I not jealous of Ken or you or any other climber. In fact a number of my bolted routes are consider classic! How many have you done dip-s---?? I do have an agenda and it is giving something back to climbing other than cheap-ass-talk on the internet. I gave myself to the right to bolt. You got a problem with that...do something about it. Also the people who find the routes I do enjoyable. Shelf Road and Penitente Canyon are two of the most popular sport-climbing areas in Colorado. I get this strange feeling that you are just a little weasel who likes to mouth-off. It does not suprised me in the least that you look up to Ken...bird of a feather. I would also put my trad-record up to yours anyday. Wanna call me names, do it person...then we can take it from there! Also on a different note. I am wireless from Socorro, NM after a great day of bouldering near Spook Canyon. The bouldering was wonderful and the desert wildflowers are going wild!
i would love to meet you in person so i can tell you straight to your face you're lame, and would love for you to call me a dip shit in person we would have fun then, just like dancing in a slaughter house. so anytime my man it would be fun, until then go back to your lame bolting antics.
you're probably one of the tools that jumped Ken in the gunks parking lot.
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bobd1953
May 3, 2005, 3:06 PM
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In reply to: i would love to meet you in person so i can tell you straight to your face you're lame, and would love for you to call me a dip shit in person we would have fun then, just like dancing in a slaughter house. so anytime my man it would be fun, until then go back to your lame bolting antics. you're probably one of the tools that jumped Ken in the gunks parking lot.
You wouldn't do shit. Like I said before your a little weasel.
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curt
May 3, 2005, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: BEASTMASTERS 10 YOU WANT ON YOUR SIDE IN A BAR FIGHT Jim Bridwell Dean Potter Charlie Porter Charlie Fowler Bob D'Antonio Mark Twight Kim Czismazia Steve Petro Al Burgess Kelly Cordes
Hey piton, I want to be there when you tell Bob what you really think. I'll bring a camera and a body bag. :lol:
Curt
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