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nich_popsicle
May 1, 2005, 5:46 AM
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In reply to: Well, you could always get a job, or a better job, or work more hours, or buy fewer video games (or whatever those things are) to save up the whopping $500 or so that you need to start a trad rack. Regardless, you could stop whining like a spoiled child. Do you act like this in front of your girlfriend?
As it stands now, I am a supervisor at the university climbing gym, and work close to 30 hours a week (at decent pay, although you could always start a petition on my behalf for a raise, don't worry, I won't try to stop you :D ), and all of my money goes towards paying my tuition, as well as rent. I DO NOT play video games, I feel once one hits puberty one should stop playing video games.
"Whopping" probably is a good word for $500 to me (apparently it is more of a meager expense to others). Ooo, I have an idea, maybe I'll just skip a rent payment, and put the money towards a trad rack, yeah, they wouldn't miss $500, only about as much as I would miss it ;)...
Curious as to how I am whining like a spoiled child? I don't believe I was bitching about how mommy and daddy won't buy me the new super-titanium-giga-micro-tri-hex-cam-nut that all the cool Trad guys are using, I was complaining about NOT being ABLE to afford to buy the aforementioned gear. I really wish I could afford to buy it, because I honestly and truly feel like I am missing out :( (I am being serious, I wish I could try trad), but that is not something I feel I need to stress about currently. As for the girlfriend comment, I will not honor that with a response, and will only say that my girlfriend is extremely supportive of my climbing, and I appreciate her very much for supporting me.
In reply to: ...bring climbing back to the way it used to be, when it brought people together, instead of drawing battle-lines
Yes, I do realize the irony of that statement, and I actually kind of laugh when I read it out loud :lol:. I apologize for not wording it differently, and I am also sorry you missed the overall meaning; I just wish that climbers would stop stepping on each others' toes and enjoy the sport for what it is.
As for you, Jay, I respect you as a climber and a source of good information, I generally thoroughly enjoy your posts, and am sorry to have offended you :oops:. Please accept my apology in this matter, and hopefully we can have no bad feelings in the future
Let's see, who's next...
In reply to: suck it up and buy some gear you whiny little punk.
Bite me, at least Jay made some valid points in his post, instead of childish name calling... I have no further use for you...
In reply to: C'mon - how many towns/universities are there near major climbing areas that don't have climbing clubs? Are you just too proud/selfish/elitist to spend the time helping out in a club in return for access to all the trad gear you could want, or are you simply worried about tarnishing your image? Get a life.
I am a proud, as well as long standing, member of Towson's Rock Climbing Contingent :D (not sure why they decided to call it "contingent," instead of club, but oh well, haha), joined the first week I was at the school. I am not sure what elitist has to do with anything, not sure why that was put in there, or to what "image" you refer to me being afraid of tarnishing... I sure wish we had some gear to use for the club, but sorry, we don't. We are one of the least funded sport clubs on campus, so as such we don't have access to the fundage necessary to buy a good rack.
You expressed some valid points up until your last commment, not sure why you felt compelled to put that in, but I suppose I will ignore it :roll: ...
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ikefromla
May 1, 2005, 6:10 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: but I would not place a bolt where the rock can take safe, natural pro. I can think of numerous pockety sport climbs which could be protected at least partially with tricams and threads, but that would totally change the nature of the climbing. It comes down to whether you want to sport climb -- ie, concentrate on making hard moves without having to diddle with gear -- or not. -Jay
So you comin out to climb on limestone with me this summer or what, Jay? :wink:
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nich_popsicle
May 1, 2005, 2:46 PM
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How do you place pro in pockets? Yes, I am stupid, but I am also interested in learning... I definitely understand the protocol for protecting a solid crack, and I actually do know what a tri-cam is (although I don't know what a "tread" is, anybody want to help me out?), and I am basically just curious as to how one would use a pocket as a place for gear placement. Please don't flame the newb :roll:, I just want to learn :D
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fracture
May 1, 2005, 2:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Moving well probably comes more from the shift to bouldering than anything else. John Gill put up a problem in 1959 that even today is considered pretty hard. Even while hangdogging was still considered cheating, bouldering allowed people to get around the (nonsensical) rules and try the same moves many times (and thus learn new techniques). But difficulty on longer climbs is the whole point of sport climbing, and it is trivially false to claim that it hasn't done anything to increase free climbing standards---quite the contrary, free climbing standards have shot through the roof on its account. Barber was certainly bold (and again, so was Evil Knieval, though I don't see you holding him in high reverence), but he never climbed 13+ or V10, eh? Not true on both statements!
There were more than two statements there.
I'm guessing you're saying that you have high reverence for Evil Knieval? :P
In reply to: Bouldering didn't take off for a number of years after the the golden years of free climbing in the 70s.
Depends on how you mean "take off". There are certainly a number of boulder problems from that era that are still considered reasonably hard (Midnight Lightning comes to mind).
But:
In reply to: Gear, (nuts) a change in thinking and several great climbers ...
You're obviously right about those factors.
In reply to: Henry Barber in his prime was one of the top free climbers in the world. If you look at the grades back in the 70s and what Henry climbed and compare them to today standard...you right. He didn't climbed a 13+...he climbed what would be 5.14+ by today standards.
:lol:
I can just picture Barber doing Action Directe: eschewing the purely psychological micro cam options in the 2 finger pockets (because cams aren't cool enough for Hot Henry), and taking a "pure" ground up approach, his only protection was from shoving his large ... umm ... into the monodoigts.
More than 2 number grades of inflation? I find that a bit hard to believe, Bob.
In reply to: Throw in boldness and you have (at the time) a climber that was in a league by himself.
Hey I never said that he didn't advance standards relative to his time period, or whatever.
The whole point of this sub-thread was to debunk Healyje's claim (pages ago) that the modern guys (i.e. Ike) haven't been able to bring as much skill to the game as their forefathers. Quite the opposite: the actual skills at movement have advanced incomprehensibly, and new mindset that allows for focusing on the actual climbing without distraction or waving your balls around is certainly a factor in that.
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ikefromla
May 1, 2005, 3:09 PM
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In reply to: new mindset that allows for focusing on the actual climbing without distraction or waving your balls around is certainly a factor in that. |
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dirtineye
May 1, 2005, 4:35 PM
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YAY Ike from LA, BOO fracture, down with nich_popsicle, don't let that moron get hold of a drill!
Somone whose initials were JT made mention of the whole point of some kind of climbing, well, there was this idea called clean climbing, with removable gear, where the point was to not trash the rock or scar it or mark it permanently.
There was the other idea that some things just should not be climbed if you have to trash em to do it.
The third icky thing about sport climbing (after the ugliness of the bolted faces and the large contingent of sport goofs) is the fact that those bolts need to be maintained by someone, forever.
But anyway, I do like to sport climb (If I am forced to do it) once in a while, some areas don't lend themselves to anything else, and besides, there's no way to stop sport bolters.
But AT LEAST can't you sport billies stick to stuff that can't be proed?
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bobd1953
May 1, 2005, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: Hey I never said that he didn't advance standards relative to his time period, or whatever. The whole point of this sub-thread was to debunk Healyje's claim (pages ago) that the modern guys (i.e. Ike) haven't been able to bring as much skill to the game as their forefathers. Quite the opposite: the actual skills at movement have advanced incomprehensibly, and new mindset that allows for focusing on the actual climbing without distraction or waving your balls around is certainly a factor in that.
I don't think you need to debunk his (healyje's) statements. Tommy Caldwell, Chris Sharma, Fred Nicole and others great climbers are doing that for you.
I also think it is quite funny that you are trying to explained to me what sport-climbing is all about. Very funny!
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fracture
May 1, 2005, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey I never said that he didn't advance standards relative to his time period, or whatever. The whole point of this sub-thread was to debunk Healyje's claim (pages ago) that the modern guys (i.e. Ike) haven't been able to bring as much skill to the game as their forefathers. Quite the opposite: the actual skills at movement have advanced incomprehensibly, and new mindset that allows for focusing on the actual climbing without distraction or waving your balls around is certainly a factor in that. I don't think you need to debunk his (healyje's) statements. Tommy Caldwell, Chris Sharma, Fred Nicole and others great climbers are doing that for you.
True.
In reply to: I also think it is quite funny that you are trying to explained to me what sport-climbing is all about. Very funny!
What's even funnier is that I don't see where I did that.
8^)
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fracture
May 1, 2005, 9:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: new mindset that allows for focusing on the actual climbing without distraction or waving your balls around is certainly a factor in that. what if i prefer to wave my balls around when i climb? is that not OK? :lol:
It depends on whether you mean like this:
http://akamai.backcountrystore.com.edgesuite.net/...s/medium/CMP0005.jpg
or like this:
http://www.cutefunnyanimals.com/Funny/0003.jpeg
---
Ok: now that the squirrel balls photo has shown up, can we declare this thread dead yet? Shouldn't there some sort of a Godwin's Law type of rule relating to this sort of thing?
;)
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ubiestmea
May 1, 2005, 11:30 PM
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If "bollocks" is bad are squirrel bollocks good? 8^) :?
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nich_popsicle
May 2, 2005, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: YAY Ike from LA, BOO fracture, down with nich_popsicle, don't let that moron get hold of a drill!
Wanker... What did I manage to do to offend YOU? For your information, I have NO intention of placing bolts anytime, as I think that should be done by someone who knows what they are doing, and I am smart enough (ie, not a moron) to know that I am not that person. I would like to, in the mean time, like to eventually learn the art of tradding :-)
To PT, thank you for your information, I now understand what threading means. I think I would be scared to do it though :shock: , seems like it would just break off. I guess it depends on the size of the thing you are girth hitching...
As I said, I apologize if I offended anyone with my original post, it was just that I was reading all of these posts by people that were FREAKING out, and it seemed a bit excessive. I guess if I had worked hard to place all that gear, I would feel a bit annoyed that all someone else had to do was slap in a draw and go... As I said before, I can't wait to learn to trad and expand my repetoir, learning is the best thing I can do at this time, as I can't quite afford to buy stuff just yet... Thanks to the people who took the time to drop some knowledge to an excited new climber :D, no love for the haters who want to keep this wonderful sport all to themselves...
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healyje
May 2, 2005, 9:34 AM
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Dingus,
Lots of ideas and opinions stuffed in that post, a couple of comments:
In reply to: So saying modern sport climbers can't climb trad, or suffer a big drop in numbers, and attaching any significance to that fact, says more about the values of the critic than it does about the so called sport climber in question.
Aside from not really thinking sport climbers need you as an apologist, my point was that for all the talk, particularly in this thread, about 5.14 this and V1x that, and how sport climbers can just warm up on trad climbs - the reality on the sharp end of a rope turns out to be remarkably different when you look at all the sport-to-trad related posts going by on RC as a whole. And it's not about the "critic", or about saying they can't climb trad - hell, quite the contrary, I'm out there telling them just the opposite - encouraging them to climb closer to their sport level and go ahead take the occasional whipper.
And while vastly more people climb today, I would bet that, on a percentage basis, fewer people climb hard than in the old days. These vast majority of climbers today represent the base of a very broad pyramid that the Beth Roddens, Chris Sharmas, Sonny Trotters, et al rise through. Some rare [sport] individuals at the top of that pyramid like Sharma do cross over to trad fairly easily retaining close to the same level of difficulty; but they are the few.
Again, the only "significance" I'm applying to it is that for all the spew of advanced and evolved skills, very few sport climbers can "walk the talk" when they cross over. A more encouraging trend is a return back to a generalism that embraces all forms of climbing and then by definition alpine and trad force these folks to come to terms with climbing at high levels above gear.
In reply to: But applying those trad skills, and the accompanying trad opinions and prejudices, at sport areas, is the equivalent to the dirty robed, bearded schizo dude braying damnation and salvation at street corner down near Fishes and Loaves. No one is really paying attention anymore.
I have no problem calling a spade a spade, or a bolt next to a protectable feature bullshit - even if I'm labeled a schizo, no problem at all.
In reply to: The notion that a bolt next to a crack is some sort of transgression, of some sort of blasphemy, is just as arbitrary as any other ethical stance in our sport. All ethics are arbitrary, they are not etched in the stone we climb and they are not eternal. There is no euch thing as 'baseline ethics' and there never was. Ever. That is why RESPECT for locals, and local styles, is so important. In the end, its all we have worth holding on to. And that respect cannot be a one way street. DMT
Well, this won't be the first time I disagree with Maculated and you and I have had the "baseline ethic" discussion before and we happen to disagree - but there was a baseline [clean] ethic in the 70's and you happen discount it over the differences of how it got translated in different areas and tend to harp on the extremes and exceptions. Fine, we still disagree.
A good example of this is Independence Pass in CO, beautiful place back in the late 70's except for the bolts that looked like they were placed with a machine gun and the trees that were clear cut to the road so the climbs were easier to see. That was done by a rather fabulously famous climber (admittedly pre-clean climbing) but the local ethics sucked beyond all reason in that case.
Or how about the case of the father of all bolt wars? Ken Nichols - where were all you "Local Ethics" folks when Ken was trying to maintain the local ethics (and some of them were pretty strange)? Did you all rally round and support Ken before he resorted to a bolt war - the only ones I ever hear about rallying around "no bolting" is government agencies (parks, forests, and wilderness) and private landowners (Gunks).
The "local ethic" argument is completely hollow without broadly accepted baseline ethics - that would mean any moron with drill that gets to a rock either first or without realizing it was trad climbing area "gets" the rock? What about when the trad folks move on? Are their ethics still "respected" in that area? It's ridiculous as it is a convenient couple of words useful for shuffling around difficult issues sweeping most climbing areas in the country.
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healyje
May 2, 2005, 9:54 AM
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In reply to: Joe-didn't your crew do a lot of top-roping in the 70s?
Yes, we did a lot of top-roping in the 70's because we refused to bolt in our areas (our "local ethic"). We also did a lot of bold top roping (see my profile pic) and leading. We'd even go out west and stack hexs in pegmatite like all the other fools putting up FA's out there. And hey, to some extent maybe we were the original sport climbers - we really were completely into unfettered movement on overhangs and roof (think of sport climbing with no ability to hang - you were either climbing or flying).
And really, if you use the logic in this thread about "unfettered movement" and not being bothered with placing gear, why not dispense entirely with the largely artificial clipping (a bad emulation of placing gear) if it's all about pure movement? Pretty much a complete hypocrisy from my perspective - either you want unfettered movement or you don't, which is it? And on a one pitch route, exactly what is it that clipping adds to the route or the experience besides a posing (sorry, I meant passing) resemblence to the real thing? I personally would rather lead a one pitch route trad or if that wasn't possible top rope it - what's the point in between? Sort of like wanting to live right downtown or all the way out in the woods, either one - but not in the suburbs in between.
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bobd1953
May 2, 2005, 3:29 PM
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Joe wrote: A good example of this is Independence Pass in CO, beautiful place back in the late 70's except for the bolts that looked like they were placed with a machine gun and the trees that were clear cut to the road so the climbs were easier to see. That was done by a rather fabulously famous climber (admittedly pre-clean climbing) but the local ethics sucked beyond all reason in that case.
What are you talking about?? I climbed on the "Pass" since the early 80s and don't have any idea of what you are talking about.
Joe wrote: Or how about the case of the father of all bolt wars? Ken Nichols - where were all you "Local Ethics" folks when Ken was trying to maintain the local ethics (and some of them were pretty strange)? Did you all rally round and support Ken before he resorted to a bolt war - the only ones I ever hear about rallying around "no bolting" is government agencies (parks, forests, and wilderness) and private landowners (Gunks).
Climbers didn't rally around Ken for a number of reasons. One: is he is off-his rocker. Two: it was his way or no way. Three: he thought he and only he own the rock and he would be the choosen one that would tell other climbers what to climb and how to climb.
Joe wrote: the only ones I ever hear about rallying around "no bolting" is government agencies (parks, forests, and wilderness) and private landowners (Gunks).
Did you ever think that most climbers don't have a problem with bolted routes? That they are fun to climb and people really enjoy that type of climbing.
There are no ethics in climbing. There are different styles of climbing. Come down off the high horse and loosen up a little.
My suggestion to you and other who feel the same way: Go out and do new routes in the style you want. Please, I for one get tired of hearing how it should be done by those who don't do! Talk is cheap.
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fracture
May 2, 2005, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: And really, if you use the logic in this thread about "unfettered movement" and not being bothered with placing gear, why not dispense entirely with the largely artificial clipping ( a bad emulation of placing gear) if it's all about pure movement?
This has been discussed in other threads, but since you bring it up again.... (And since the squirrel obviously hasn't acted as much of a deterrent).
We need the mid-route bolts because we don't like to fall onto our backs from 20 feet when we mess up (cf. your profile pic). They also make it easier to hangdog and learn the moves (I don't know if you are aware, but many routes have "dogging bolts" that you use to work the route, but skip on the redpoint attempt). Perhaps most importantly, it is much more convenient to not have to walk to the top of the cliff (and for that matter it reduces damage to vegitation that lives up there). Also, in my experience, truely hard clipping positions are rare (that is---they are usually avoidable for your redpoint tries by either stick clipping, skipping the bolt or extending the draw); assuming you have the draws up and such it really doesn't distract you from the climbing very much (certainly much less than having to fiddle with gear).
You might ask why not just follow through those mid-route bolts? Well it turns out this is harder too, especially (primarily) on your working runs: when you fall, instead of going down and being able to pull up and try again, you swing out away from the wall and are screwed. It also would require swinging in to re-clip directionals between redpoint attempts, which, to a sport climber's mind, is an unjustifiable amount of wasted effort.
I would agree with you that it is a completely different beast than leading in the traditional sense. But that doesn't really lead to the conclusion that we could/should just as easily toprope.
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shorty
May 2, 2005, 3:49 PM
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In reply to: There are no ethics in climbing. There are different styles of climbing. Come down off the high horse and loosen up a little. My suggestion to you and other who feel the same way: Go out and do new routes in the style you want. Please, I for one get tired of hearing how it should be done by those who don't do! Talk is cheap.
Oh, I forgot. It's much easier to punch the keyboard than spend a whole day of hard labor to develop 80 feet of climbing.
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dingus
May 2, 2005, 3:51 PM
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In reply to: Aside from not really thinking sport climbers need you as an apologist,
You're funny dude.
In reply to: Or how about the case of the father of all bolt wars? Ken Nichols - where were all you "Local Ethics" folks when Ken was trying to maintain the local ethics (and some of them were pretty strange)?
You mean like advocating duct taped hooks in opposition to "protect" blank walls INSTEAD of lead placed bolts? Talk about a baseline ethic, lol! A baseline of ONE.
Hey, I was at the Grotto over the weekend. Not a single new bolt placed next to a crack, not one.
DMT
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dingus
May 2, 2005, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: Bingo. If a mere fraction of the effort put into posturing about bolting, rock cleaning, crack cleaning, weed whacking, and crag access were redirected to actually developing one's preferred style of climbing, we'd have a boat load more routes out there and a whole lot more intelligent discussions. Oh, I forgot. It's much easier to punch the keyboard than spend a whole day of hard labor to develop 80 feet of climbing.
Having done both, I can validate the notion; spraying on the internet is far easier. Safer too.
I suspect Healyje is one of those who puts his opinions into practice though. That's what makes his opinions so interesting actually.
Cheers
DMT
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jt512
May 2, 2005, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: I personally would rather lead a one pitch route trad or if that wasn't possible top rope it...
Top roping steep climbs is, frankly, lame. The rope is constantly in your face; it's weight tends to pull you off the route; and to get back on the route after a fall to work the moves -- largely the point of sport climbing -- you have to unclip the rope from directionals, necessitates bolts anyway, and is more awkward than clipping on lead.
-Jay
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healyje
May 2, 2005, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Or how about the case of the father of all bolt wars? Ken Nichols - where were all you "Local Ethics" folks when Ken was trying to maintain the local ethics (and some of them were pretty strange)? You mean like advocating duct taped hooks in opposition to "protect" blank walls INSTEAD of lead placed bolts? Talk about a baseline ethic, lol! A baseline of ONE. DMT
Having watched Ken and company in action on some of those hooking routes I have to say it was one of the strangest sights I have ever seen (and some of the burliest climbing). But it was his [strange] way of interpreting and adopting a "clean climbing" [baseline] ethic there in CT and still clip on lead as opposed to top roping which was certainly an option at his disposal. Again, it was a local interpretation of a the baseline clean climbing ethic - albiet a pretty fricking strange one, but was definitely in line with the baseline ethic of the time nonetheless.
But then Ken and crew were undeniably putting up the vast majority of new routes in CT and had been for a long time - their's, however strange, was the "local ethic" and people should have either repected it, or top roped as far as I'm concerned (and according to all your's and other's "local ethics" talk). Which is it - "Local ethics" or "local ethics we happen to like"?
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caughtinside
May 2, 2005, 5:32 PM
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There are several Tuolomne routes that were put up as solos that have been respected.
personally, I think it's pretty lame that someone goes and solos a 5.8, when they can climb 5.13, and then want the route to remain unbolted. If yer gonna solo, who cares about the bolts, right? :P
But I guess I have deviated even farther from the topic of bolted cracks. We were talking about retrobolting, I believe? :P
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healyje
May 2, 2005, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I personally would rather lead a one pitch route trad or if that wasn't possible top rope it... Top roping steep climbs is, frankly, lame. The rope is constantly in your face; it's weight tends to pull you off the route; and to get back on the route after a fall to work the moves -- largely the point of sport climbing -- you have to unclip the rope from directionals, necessitates bolts anyway, and is more awkward than clipping on lead. -Jay
I agree, if you're frankly so lame you're only capable of dogging your way up them...
Actully, don't dog and skip the directionals, skip all bolts - if you fall, you fly. It's ground up by definition and to "work the moves" your mind just has to peddle harder, faster, and under pressure to put up steep overhangs and roofs on a top-rope with no pre-inspection, no rapping, no cleaning, and most of all no dogging. In reality it can be pretty damn stout and a hell of a lot harder than dogging up a line of bolts. It has more in common with deep water soloing than sport climbing.
Oh, and in all those years I've never once even thought about the rope weight or thought it was in my way...
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dingus
May 2, 2005, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: But Ken and crew were undeniably putting up the vast majority of new routes in CT and had been for a long time - their's, however strange, was the "local ethic" and people should have either repected it, or top roped as far as I'm concerned ( and according to all your's and other's "local ethics" talk). Which is it - "Local ethics" or "local ethics we happen to like"?
The one's we happen to like of course. And more importantly, the ones deserving of our respect.
And that is the truth and always has been. Nichols thought that since he was alpha male lead dog he could dictate to all other route developers the style with which they had to practice.
He was WRONG.
Taped hooks as part of a baseline ethic... OK bro, if you say so! But I suspect any 'baseline' including such extreme bull shit is doomed to fail. Taking the position that taped hooks are the only valid lead method was not respected, nor should it have been. Hell, Ed Leeper saw fit to run a national ad warning folks not to use his hooks for that purpose.
DMT
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takeme
May 2, 2005, 5:40 PM
Post #175 of 237
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Registered: May 7, 2003
Posts: 367
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In reply to: "Whopping" probably is a good word for $500 to me (apparently it is more of a meager expense to others). Ooo, I have an idea, maybe I'll just skip a rent payment, and put the money towards a trad rack, yeah, they wouldn't miss $500, only about as much as I would miss it ;)... Curious as to how I am whining like a spoiled child? I don't believe I was b---- about how mommy and daddy won't buy me the new super-titanium-giga-micro-tri-hex-cam-nut that all the cool Trad guys are using, I was complaining about NOT being ABLE to afford to buy the aforementioned gear. I really wish I could afford to buy it, because I honestly and truly feel like I am missing out :( (I am being serious, I wish I could try trad), but that is not something I feel I need to stress about currently.
Just so you know, you can get a set of nuts for well under 100 bucks--certainly for less than you can get a set of draws. This is how I first started to build my rack. Apparently that was enough for plenty of climbers on plenty of climbs back in the 70s. Anyway, I led what climbs I could with this set-up, or swapped leads with other people who own today's version of a full rack.
Also, I later started filling out my rack with about 5 of the larger used rigid stem friends from various folks for about 10-20 bucks each, depending on wear and tear. Now you are up to $130 or so for a rack that works for many climbs, even if you're not that bold. I assume you have a set of quickdraws already and that you had to pay for that?
Anyway, if you don't "feel the need to stress about [trad] currently", then don't, and leave it for when you do feel the need.
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