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craftonclimber
Apr 17, 2006, 7:39 PM
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As irresponsible as it is to blame a company like CCH it is just as irresponsible to blame a company like REI that carries the same gear and has the same responsibility to the climbing community as any other climbing outfitter. No matter where you purchase your climbing equipment is up to you, the climber, to ensure the quality of your gear. The recall on the Alien Cams has been well known for some time now and I know for a fact that companies like REI and Excursion have removed them from their shelves since the recall.
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veganboyjosh
Apr 17, 2006, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: No matter where you purchase your climbing equipment is up to you, the climber, to ensure the quality of your gear.
while this is true...
In reply to: The recall on the Alien Cams has been well known for some time now and I know for a fact that companies like REI and Excursion have removed them from their shelves since the recall.
i've heard of the recall thru:
this website.
a flyer posted at several local shops.
at least one print mag.
maybe at an indoor gym, but i could be projecting that.
aside from this, where is it well known? i think it's entirely possible for an active climber to not have visited any of the above in 3 or 4 months, the time since the recall was issued.
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2006, 7:59 PM
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I've spoken to a couple climbers (friends of mine) who hadn't heard about the alien recall.
If you've got a life, it'd be real easy to miss it. :P
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 7:59 PM
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not sure where anyone was blaming REI...
one guy was saying he could identify a new climber by a collection of gear sometimes found at REI.. this i think was a bit off the mark for 2 reasons a) that gear can be found anywhere b) REI might be the easiest/only place for them to get gear
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jacurry243
Apr 17, 2006, 8:29 PM
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Apologies for the misunderstanding: I was not blaming REI at all, and really have zero problem with alien cams.
The observation was that the BD ovals (REI price point below 5 dollars) as well as the Omega D's (also Priced below 5 dollars) as well as the checkered BW nylon (red and green) full length slings screamed "Buy more than 6 and get 10% off". (I always see that when I enter REI.) Between that, the Omega lockers, which are also lower cost alternatives (and equally as strong) and the fact that everything was very very shiny and REI recently sent everyone their dividends in the mail- the whole scene screamed "recently bought gear."
Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. My point was more aimed at "newbie to trad learns tough lesson" rather than "retailers and manufacturers market substandard gear."
And, again, I think the title should be changed.
JC
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billcoe_
Apr 17, 2006, 8:39 PM
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In reply to: I've spoken to a couple climbers (friends of mine) who hadn't heard about the alien recall. :P
Me too, although it's hard to believe there are those who do not live on the internet like we do.
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112
Apr 17, 2006, 8:45 PM
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Actually REI sent me an email, once this recall came to light, stating that their records showed that I had purchased X alliens and that there had been a recall on dimpled Aliens. REI Invited me to return the gear for store credit (regardless of the presence of a dimple or not).
Now that IS customer service!
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climbingbetty22
Apr 17, 2006, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: No matter where you purchase your climbing equipment is up to you, the climber, to ensure the quality of your gear.
I think this a great point. While not much is known about the details of the situation, personal responsiblity is key. My biggest wish for this guy, aside from a quick and full recovery, is that he will not blame the gear manufacturers and mechanidizers, but see the mistakes he mave have made, whatever they may have been, and learn from them to become a better, more skillful climber.
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the_mitt
Apr 17, 2006, 9:15 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:44 PM)
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2006, 9:26 PM
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Well, what about all the other gear that ripped? How come we don't get to hear about that stuff?
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majid_sabet
Apr 17, 2006, 9:32 PM
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"guy ripped out all gear"
And this was caused by one bad cam ?
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scrapedape
Apr 17, 2006, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: Well, what about all the other gear that ripped? How come we don't get to hear about that stuff?
Hopefully we will.
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 9:48 PM
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Mitt you are an ambulance chaser of alien threads.. you have put in about $23.50 in your .02's on the matter.. If it had been a BD cam you wouldn't have even bothered with this thread
He didn't break the cam.. the placement failed.. i'm not sure what damage inverting does but i bet with either nothing or new trigger wires the cam would be good to go again
look at the resulting cam (and pattern of the other failed gear).. umbrella'd out. if it was placed correctly or undercammed it would have resulted in a normal looking cam and there probably would have been broken/trenched rock
even IF the braze had failed it was a recalled cam! cch can't be responsible for people who are using cams that are known to be defective.
haha and one accident thread i agree with majid wohoo!
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charley
Apr 17, 2006, 9:55 PM
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I guess we will never know the specifics unless the guy posts here but: What I heard from Will and the ppl in the gendarme was that the climber went above his last piece(an alien) and then backed off. Came down and grabbed his gear, (hung on it, I guess) moved up and then just sat on the alien and it popped and was destroyed. He did not fall on gear but just sat on it. His next piece popped also and he hit a ledge. It is suspected that he may have over cammed or moved the piece when he grabbed it. This was also right after a twenty minute rain that got the rock wet.
Excellent job by two daring young climbers on the rescue. They had the man on the ground before rescue ppl got there.
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crimpstrength
Apr 17, 2006, 10:02 PM
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jakedatc
In reply to: Mitt you are an ambulance chaser of alien threads.. you have put in about $23.50 in your .02's on the matter..
When I can vote, I'm coming back to this - bravo
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healyje
Apr 17, 2006, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: Came down and grabbed his gear, (hung on it, I guess) moved up and then just sat on the alien and it popped and was destroyed. He did not fall on gear but just sat on it.
This is getting to be my favorite "under acknowledged" issue in climbing...
Trad is not sport and using sport tactics on gear is not entirely without risk. Once you grab or hang on a piece you'll definitely want to scope it out good and possibly even remove and re-place it. Don't assume because it just held you once that it will twice. I'm seeing this scenario contribute to more and more accidents...
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shanz
Apr 17, 2006, 11:07 PM
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Here we go again about aliens, guess some of us have forgotten that regardless of the cam nothing is 100% safe... Put too much faith in a piece of gear and that piece of gear will hand you your ass...
You cant fall if you dont let go
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scrapedape
Apr 17, 2006, 11:45 PM
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In reply to: "guy ripped out all gear" And this was caused by one bad cam ?
I wouldn't think so, unless one bad cam WAS all the gear.
majid, do you reckon a helmet would have helped this chap?
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the_mitt
Apr 17, 2006, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: Mitt you are an ambulance chaser of alien threads.. you have put in about $23.50 in your .02's on the matter.. If it had been a BD cam you wouldn't have even bothered with this thread He didn't break the cam.. the placement failed.. i'm not sure what damage inverting does but i bet with either nothing or new trigger wires the cam would be good to go again look at the resulting cam (and pattern of the other failed gear).. umbrella'd out. if it was placed correctly or undercammed it would have resulted in a normal looking cam and there probably would have been broken/trenched rock
I said that I believed that this accident was probably attributed to pilot error. I read all the accident threads so that I don't end up with the same fate, I would have certainly asked questions about the reported accident especially with so few details. I never implied that the alien failed just like I never implied that it did its job, I don't know. The only people that know are the ones that were there. Now that it has been said how the accident happened I think its safe to assume that it was pilot error and hopefully people will learn from his mistake (I know I did). I hang from my gear all the time. Sorry to set you off man.
Have a nice day :)
Mitt
(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:44 PM)
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healyje
Apr 18, 2006, 12:44 AM
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In reply to: I hang from my gear all the time.
Again, not a practice without risks, particularly for beginning and intermediate folks. Gear moves under a variety of circumstances and in various ways when weighted, climbed past, leaned out on, etc. All have the potential to significantly alter a placement. My point was if you're going to do this, then check the piece everytime you unweight it and before climbing past it again.
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meesier42
Apr 18, 2006, 1:02 AM
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I have to ask something here, and it has been pointed out already but not as blantently as I think it should be.
1) What happened here is a terrible accident, no matter what caused it
2) Hopefully the guy will be ok
3) THANK YOU, to the guys who climbed up to and rescued this guy.
4) Stop speculating what happened, hopefully in time, details and pictures will come out as fact ( or at least the best experts opinion) and we can all learn from what happened.
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healyje
Apr 18, 2006, 10:37 AM
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Actually, we're trying to get to te bottom of this one and comment relative to the facts at hand as known so far. Sorry this is making you unconfortable, but given te way this thread started and the information we've been able to ascertain thus far (not much), the discussion has been quite appropriate.
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daithi
Apr 18, 2006, 12:17 PM
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In reply to: i've heard of the recall thru: this website. a flyer posted at several local shops. at least one print mag. maybe at an indoor gym, but i could be projecting that.
Keep at it. Eventually you'll get the redpoint! :wink:
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daithi
Apr 18, 2006, 12:32 PM
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In reply to: i've heard of the recall thru: this website. a flyer posted at several local shops. at least one print mag. maybe at an indoor gym, but i could be projecting that.
Keep at it. Eventually you'll get the redpoint. :wink:
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crankingclimber
Apr 20, 2006, 4:34 PM
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In regards to the very first post:
1) Hard man, or big softy? Probably big softy:)
2) I didn't solo up to him, I led part of Roy Gap, part of Climb n Punishment, part of Gehart Dufty, and a whole lot of licheny traverse. The guide who came up told me I had a first ascent, and I joked I was going to call it, 'Sam's Rescue.' We call, including the victim, got a laugh out of it - he was in good spirits by that time.
3) At least as of yet, I'm not about to be a Senece guide, although it's not out of the question.
4) The guide who came up is a good friend of mine, but it wasn't JJ. He didn't solo, he tied into the rope I put up.
5) We think the fall was between 50 and 60 feet, not 80.
And yes, he did completely umbrella a recalled alien - it was almost undoubtdedly user error though, not any problem with the alien. As he told me (and I'm not sure that I quite got what he was trying to tell me, or that he was perfectly clear himself) he placed the green alien, was holding it with one hand, reaching up with his other, gave up and sat down/took a tiny pop onto the alien, which then umbrellad. He fell, his next cam ripped, which is what introduced enough slack into the system for him to hit the ledge he broke both ankles on, he bounced off of that ledge and was caught by the rope on a good piece. He had 4 pieces in the rock after the two cams blew, plus the belay. His partner lowered him to a ledge, and I booked it up to him, a guide came up, he organized most of the lower - had him on my back, I kept his feet off the rock, the ambulance (3 actually) were already on the road beneath the Southern Pillar. We lowered right onto a stretcher, carried him down the scree, and they took him to the hospital (Winchester???).
The guide got the partner off of the route, but had to leave some gear, which friends of mine went and got the next day.
Them's the details - the victim told me he'd been climbing 5 years, but his rack looked brand new - it was a strange rack also - had those new link cams, and all of his gear was stored on lockers. So, the theory goes that he bought a rack, started climbing, got on the G-D, placed bad gear, sat on one which umbrellad, ripped another, hit the ledge, got lowered to another ledge, and then rescued. That's about all the details that there are. Hope this clears up any questions or concerns.
PA Hard Man... Will
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