I train relentlessly. I do not like to fall on trad gear but it happens as the grade gets pushed. I like to believe that the knowledge of, proper use of, and understanding the limitations of my PPE, with constant training will keep me from and my partner getting fucked up in the event of a fall. I am always trying to correct and prefect my form . Making the movements cleaner, more fluid, burning the least amount of energy possible, and placing gear for relative max efficiency and comfort for the grade. I understand that in almost all cases, as long as my legs are outside the line the chance of getting caught on a line and spun is minimal. (I learned that the hard way years ago)
I recently had someone say to me in a Gym, “the line is in the way most of the time on overhangs, so you can’t keep clean of the line“.( I disagree 100% as you can shorten the runners to keep the line closer to the crack if needed or scan ahead, then anticipate good placement or potential problems beforehand, to then plan a couple ways to compensate for such) He then went on to state that he had been climbing for 20 years and that one should also practice taking F/2 falls in a gym to get use to falling and spinning, and then some BS about dynamic belays all the time to soften a fall. I said to him, The dynamic properties of the rope take place of the dynamic belays once used in the past for a more static line, and the only times you should walk in or allow more slack to a falling partner is if there is an obstruction that those actions will help the climber to avoid and make a cleaner fall. He continued to argue with me. The thing that really pissed me off , he was teaching others that BS… For those in the area who know who I am talking about. Please use some common sense, and if you have none…. read. Start with “Freedom of the hills 7th ed.” before I read about you in Accidents & Injuries ….

Well, I don't know how you would practice factor 2 falls, especially in a gym setting. I am, however, a huge fan of soft catch. Hard catches hurt like hell! The dynamic stretch of a rope can in no way substitute for a nice soft catch.

The last clipped point is one above midpoint , he goes to the top and drops.

As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.

The last clipped point is one above midpoint , he goes to the top and drops.

some BS about dynamic belays all the time to soften a fall. I said to him, The dynamic properties of the rope take place of the dynamic belays once used in the past for a more static line, and the only times you should walk in or allow more slack to a falling partner is if there is an obstruction that those actions will help the climber to avoid and make a cleaner fall. He continued to argue with me. The thing that really pissed me off , he was teaching others that BS…

Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.

As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.

As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.

pieces popping out of the wall have no correlation whatsoever to the type of belay given- dynamic or otherwise.

gear blowing is a consequence of not slinging properly, poor placement, directional placement, rock quality, belayer stance, or some combination of the above.

You're an idiot.

I did not say you should never use a dynamic belay. I said, use when applicable. And pieces can pop using a dynamic belay. I’m in Redrocks January 9th if you get out there, or I will be out in SL Utah in March for a week then Park City. If you want to meet up I would be more than happy to show you.

Is that true? I'm asking seriously here because I wonder why anyone would use a Screamer then if softening the fall makes no difference. Is it possible that a belayor can possibly re-enact what a Screamer would do if one wasn't used?

Sorry if that seems n00bish, but I'm curious to know the difference.

I read VTG's post as talking only about pieces zippering from the bottom, not necessarily the top piece. A dynamic belay can help the top piece.

Watch it there , you are talking a lot of shit for someone who has no profile....

And line running through placed gear up can zipper not well set pieces or where the only placements are marginal, mainly chocks.

I predict this thread is going to be long and painful to read

Whatever; I travel the world and spend at least 4 months every year doing so. I am not afraid to explore. And More, I am not afraid to speak my mind, weather I am correct or in need of enlightenment. See I will learn something either way. You hide your face so you can talk shit like a cowered. Your fear most likely reflects your climbing . Running scared , overpowering through moves , lacking control with poor form. Its OK, I understand why you fear, and your right to be afraid and a cowered.

Whatever; I travel the world and spend at least 4 months every year doing so. I am not afraid to explore. And More, I am not afraid to speak my mind, weather I am correct or in need of enlightenment. See I will learn something either way. You hide your face so you can talk shit like a cowered. Your fear most likely reflects your climbing . Running scared , overpowering through moves , lacking control with poor form. Its OK, I understand why you fear, and your right to be afraid and a cowered.

I am not afraid to explore

And More, I am not afraid to speak my mind, weather I am correct or in need of enlightenment.

Don't type angry. It's never pretty.

The last clipped point is one above midpoint , he goes to the top and drops.

that's not factor 2.

Your late. I get it…

I did not say you should never use a dynamic belay. I said, use when applicable. And pieces can pop using a dynamic belay. I’m in Redrocks January 9th if you get out there, or I will be out in SL Utah in March for a week then Park City. If you want to meet up I would be more than happy to show you.

The dynamic properties of the rope take place of the dynamic belays once used in the past for a more static line, and the only times you should walk in or allow more slack to a falling partner is if there is an obstruction that those actions will help the climber to avoid and make a cleaner fall.

I'm late.

You're stupid.

I win.

Curt

i'm really confused as to how you can have a profile like you do, and not know what a factor 2 fall is,

I btechya jaablink knows that just fine.

DMT

...you are correct in stating that you can help the climber avoid obstacles by giving a softer catch...

Are you sure about that?

You may be right Dingus, but total ignorance in one area is usually not in isolation.

A climber could go a whole career, and thousands have done just that... without knowing what the precise definition of FF2 may be, and not suffer one iota for that lack.

All this fall factor bullshit is nice for math and arguing but the precise[/i[] meaning of any given fall factor is largely irrelevant WHEN IN THE FIELD.

A climber only needs to know thatr falling directly on the belay subjects the belay and belayer with tremendous force... I btechya jaablink knows that just fine.

DMT

Irregardless, one should know what one decides to talk about or one should keep one's mouth shut.

And one should also learn how to close italics, one should!

One should take a luvin spoonful of one's own medicine.

Daily.

DMT

One should take a luvin spoonful of one's own medicine.

Daily.

its too bad Angry isn't part of this disscusion, because with the addition of a little comma, the meaning is totally different!

"don't type, angry. its never pretty"

He is?

Jay

As for the zipper effect, I think in the case I saw the belay was too far back. When the climber fell he fed line that causes friction on the first clip pulling it up and popping the nut then the next 2 popped in succession leaving 2 cams he had places higher in the crack. At the Spider Web last spring.

Wonderwoman sent me this link on the first page to Freedom of the hills, I did not see anything about “On steep climbs, giving a soft catch prevents the climber from swinging into the wall”as I stated its situational prudence....on page 159 (dynamic lines) i did find reference to benefits of dynamic belays on weak anchors. Page 161
http://books.google.com/...;ct=result#PPA158,M1

As for the zipper effect, I think in the case I saw the belay was too far back. When the climber fell he fed line that causes friction on the first clip pulling it up and popping the nut then the next 2 popped in succession leaving 2 cams he had places higher in the crack. At the Spider Web last spring.

So you are saying you would like a dynamic blay on a slab…. And Spider's Web is in ,NY.

If you consider the lip of a roof an obstacle.

And I am pretty sure Angry did Welcome to ol Kentucky too.

One should avoid using the pompous phrase "one should." In fact, two should.

Jay

When the climber is over a roof, you want extra slack in the rope so that he free falls clear of the lip. That has nothing to do with whether the belay is dynamic or not.

Jay

Now, what say you about this nonsense of a dynamic catch contributing to the zipper effect.

And BTW, John is definitely not a troll. This is a genuine heart to heart rc.com rant.

Isn't that right Mr. Anderson?

Yes you are …. Joe messed it up. He is actually Mr. Anderson.

I'm late.

You're stupid.

I win.

Curt

Best succinct retort ever!

Dead Horse.

How the hell do you take ff2 falls in a gym? I don’t know any gym owner that would allow you to try such. Also I would not count on the bolts to hold a FF2 fall in a gym. Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall. There is generally a steel plate in the back of the wall that disperses the load of a fall along the wooden panel that makes up that section of the wall. Taking a ff2 fall on one of those wooden panels is a very bad idea.

It is important to provide a dynamic belay if a leader takes a ff2 fall. However it does not really matter because if a leader takes a ff2 fall, the rope will slip through your hands and you will be providing a dynamic belay regardless if you want to or not. And using a GriGir or Cinch will not provide an exception to this statement either because those devices slip when loaded to 4 - 7 kN.

How the hell do you take ff2 falls in a gym?

Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall.

Do you ever actually know what you are talking about?

Jay

One should avoid using the pompous phrase "one should." In fact, two should.

Jay

It's pretty cool to read a thread I'm not involved in and find someone spraying for me.

Carry on.

Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall. There is generally a steel plate in the back of the wall that disperses the load of a fall along the wooden panel that makes up that section of the wall.

Well, I don't know how you would practice factor 2 falls, especially in a gym setting. I am, however, a huge fan of soft catch. Hard catches hurt like hell! The dynamic stretch of a rope can in no way substitute for a nice soft catch.

What piece of shit gym are you climbing in? I've set routes at quite a few gyms, and been behind their walls at one point or another to fix spinners or the like, and I've never once seen a lead bolt installed in the way you claim. Methinks you're full of shit, or climbing at the most ghetto gym in the country.

yup- should have specified that one.

also, you use a screamer because the rock quality and/or placement is bad in the first place- in which case, obviously a dynamic belay in addition to a screamer can help the situation (but obviously, a dynamic belay needs to be used with caution as well- depending on whats in the fall line)

Speaking of which, why don’t you continue to elaborate on how every dynamic rope ever made is the same.

I am not a gym rat, I climb outside. I haven’t stepped foot inside a gym in over four years. However when I did climb in gyms, the gyms I climbed in were configured in the manner listed in my previous post and when I asked the owners about the reliability of their design, they said it was standard practice. I would hope its no longer standard practice to do that.

Twilight is a spring project. And Scary Area is 12.c on pitch 2 and 11.a pitch 1