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Valarc
Dec 17, 2008, 3:28 AM
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I have nothing constructive to add, but I must say it's pretty fucking funny to hear someone bitching about how stupid some gym gumby is, and still sound so clueless on so many things.
It somehow makes me feel better about myself to know that while I can't climb hard at all, I'm not a complete fucking idiot. Apparently, even people who pull hard can be stupid as hell.
Reminds me why I moved out of PA in the first place 
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jaablink
Dec 17, 2008, 3:45 AM
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Ah , are you in a mood too. Would you like a hug sweety. >:D<
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jt512
Dec 17, 2008, 4:19 AM
Post #78 of 107
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Now, what say you about this nonsense of a dynamic catch contributing to the zipper effect.
It sounds like nonsense to me, along with everything else jaablink has said in this thread.
Jay
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joeforte
Dec 17, 2008, 4:21 AM
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So did the guy from the gym get to read this post yet? I think he would find it amusing.
If you saw a guy zipper 3 nuts, it is because the first could not handle an outward/upward pull. It has nothing to do with a dynamic belay. Use a multi-directional placement as the first piece to avoid the zipper.
The ropes in most gyms are so beat that they have little to no dynamic effect left. I definitely appreciate a dynamic belay on those things!
I actually prefer a dynamic belay anytime I'm taking a lead fall, except in the rare case that it puts me in danger of decking or ledging out.
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joeforte
Dec 17, 2008, 4:25 AM
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And BTW, John is definitely not a troll. This is a genuine heart to heart rc.com rant.
Isn't that right Mr. Anderson? 
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jaablink
Dec 17, 2008, 4:32 AM
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Thanks Joe, I love you too. OXOXO
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jaablink
Dec 17, 2008, 4:36 AM
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Yes you are …. Joe messed it up. He is actually Mr. Anderson.
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shockabuku
Dec 17, 2008, 4:42 AM
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jaablink wrote: Yes you are …. Joe messed it up. He is actually Mr. Anderson.
Thanks. I can feel not crazy for a little longer.
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joeforte
Dec 17, 2008, 4:47 AM
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Hey, where are these local 5.13 trad lines? I could use some winter projects. Names/Areas?
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jaablink
Dec 17, 2008, 4:55 AM
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If you promise not to put a bolt in any the tradable ones, I will take you to one of the spots. What are you doing now that the bugs are not around? Do you have the winter off?
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joeforte
Dec 17, 2008, 5:04 AM
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Yeah, I have the winter off. So these are all super secret 5.13's? You can't name even ONE?
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the_leech
Dec 17, 2008, 5:10 AM
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curt wrote: jaablink wrote: Your late. I get it… I'm late. You're stupid. I win. Curt
Best succinct retort ever!
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jaablink
Dec 17, 2008, 5:16 AM
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First, I lost 3 members of my immediate family in less then the same amount of months. I am in no mood. don’t piss me off. I don’t actually believe you can pull 13... But if you want to prove to me you can you have my number. Give me a call and we can go out to play.
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Lazlo
Dec 17, 2008, 5:17 AM
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the_leech wrote: curt wrote: jaablink wrote: Your late. I get it… I'm late. You're stupid. I win. Curt Best succinct retort ever!
Dead Horse.
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the_leech
Dec 17, 2008, 5:28 AM
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Lazlo wrote: the_leech wrote: curt wrote: jaablink wrote: Your late. I get it… I'm late. You're stupid. I win. Curt Best succinct retort ever! Dead Horse.
Nah, it's timeless.
Even if it was posted a whole four hours ago.
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jaablink
Dec 17, 2008, 5:35 AM
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Its short, to the point, and too funny. I wanted to come back with something but I was just too proud of him.
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USnavy
Dec 17, 2008, 6:06 AM
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How the hell do you take ff2 falls in a gym? I don’t know any gym owner that would allow you to try such. Also I would not count on the bolts to hold a FF2 fall in a gym. Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall. There is generally a steel plate in the back of the wall that disperses the load of a fall along the wooden panel that makes up that section of the wall. Taking a ff2 fall on one of those wooden panels is a very bad idea.
Although he is right about providing a dynamic belay. It is important to provide a dynamic belay if a leader takes a ff2 fall. However it does not really matter because if a leader takes a ff2 fall, the rope will slip through your hands and you will be providing a dynamic belay regardless if you want to or not. And using a GriGir or Cinch will not provide an exception to this statement either because those devices slip when loaded to 4 - 7 kN.
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vegastradguy
Dec 17, 2008, 7:01 AM
Post #94 of 107
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USnavy wrote: How the hell do you take ff2 falls in a gym? I don’t know any gym owner that would allow you to try such. Also I would not count on the bolts to hold a FF2 fall in a gym. Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall. There is generally a steel plate in the back of the wall that disperses the load of a fall along the wooden panel that makes up that section of the wall. Taking a ff2 fall on one of those wooden panels is a very bad idea.
this may be true of older gyms, and perhaps some newer gyms built by the owners, but gyms built by actual gym builders (eldo walls, rockwerx) have the lead bolts as part of the main skeleton of the gym- for obvious reasons.
In reply to: It is important to provide a dynamic belay if a leader takes a ff2 fall. However it does not really matter because if a leader takes a ff2 fall, the rope will slip through your hands and you will be providing a dynamic belay regardless if you want to or not. And using a GriGir or Cinch will not provide an exception to this statement either because those devices slip when loaded to 4 - 7 kN.
its late enough that i dont feel like picking this one apart, but i'll say that while you have the basic ideas correct, the reasoning doesn't quite add up. hopefully someone will have more energy than me and explain why.
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jt512
Dec 17, 2008, 7:04 AM
Post #95 of 107
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USnavy wrote: How the hell do you take ff2 falls in a gym?
I think we've already come to a consensus on that, but thanks for you input.
In reply to: Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall.
Do you ever actually know what you are talking about?
Jay
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rgold
Dec 17, 2008, 8:06 AM
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Majid (and any other readers) this account is mathematically correct but would be very misleading without careful interpretation. Dr. Curtis is apparently unaware of the work that has already been done on this subject, dating back to at least 1946 with the work of Richard M. Leonard and Arnold Wexler, and, in bursting through doors already long open, has chosen a non-standard definition of the fall factor that does not correspond to the quantity universally used by climbers. His choice is not only different than the one we use, it is also wrong-headed from a practical standpoint, if one may use the word "practical" when referring to the results of such simple models.
The non-standard definition of fall factor used by Dr. Curtis is the ratio
(length of fall + rope stretch)/(total amount of rope out).
The universally accepted definition is
(length of fall)/(total amount of rope out).
By making rope stretch part of the fall factor (let's call it the C-fall factor in honor of the inventor), Dr. Curtis introduces a ratio that cannot be computed until the fall has happened and one has somehow managed to measure the amount of rope stretch at the instant of maximum elongation. (Note, worst-case scenario falls now have fall factors greater than 2.) This makes the C-fall factor apparently unknowable a priori. Even worse, the C-fall factor no longer depends on just the fall and the amount of rope in the system---now you have to know the specific characteristics of the rope too; exactly the same fall will have different C-fall factors depending on how stretchy the rope is, so one can no longer characterize any particular fall by its C-fall factor, and in this sense Dr. Curtis' formulation is of no practical utility.
So there are two maximum-tension formulas, one using the C-fall factor and one using the regular fall factor. Either formula can be derived rather simply from the other, so they are mathematically equivalent, but worlds apart when one tries to analyze any particular climbing situation.
There is no shortage of accounts using the "correct" definition of fall factor available on the web nowadays. For example, I myself have posted one on this very site, another one by Stephen W. Attaway has been available for perhaps ten years.
As for the issue of dynamic belays, one might note that for high fall-factor falls they are not something you either choose or don't choose to do unless there is a lot of carabiner and/or rock friction. In the absence of a lot of friction, rope is going to run through any tube-style belay device; the loads are simply too high to be held without rope slippage.
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USnavy
Dec 17, 2008, 8:21 AM
Post #97 of 107
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jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: How the hell do you take ff2 falls in a gym? In reply to: Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall. Do you ever actually know what you are talking about? Jay
Speaking of which, why don’t you continue to elaborate on how every dynamic rope ever made is the same. I think Beal and Sterling would find it interesting on how their marketing claims are no longer valid because "all ropes are the same" and their ropes aren’t any different then any others.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 17, 2008, 8:27 AM)
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dingus
Dec 17, 2008, 10:53 AM
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jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: shockabuku wrote: dingus wrote: kennoyce wrote: i'm really confused as to how you can have a profile like you do, and not know what a factor 2 fall is, A climber could go a whole career, and thousands have done just that... without knowing what the precise definition of FF2 may be, and not suffer one iota for that lack. All this fall factor bullshit is nice for math and arguing but the precise[/i[] meaning of any given fall factor is largely irrelevant WHEN IN THE FIELD.
A climber only needs to know thatr falling directly on the belay subjects the belay and belayer with tremendous force... I btechya jaablink knows that just fine.
DMTIrregardless, one should know what one decides to talk about or one should keep one's mouth shut. And one should also learn how to close italics, one should!  One should take a luvin spoonful of one's own medicine. Daily. One should avoid using the pompous phrase "one should." In fact, two should. Jay
Thou shalt not use one.
DMT
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dingus
Dec 17, 2008, 11:06 AM
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angry wrote: It's pretty cool to read a thread I'm not involved in and find someone spraying for me. Carry on.
We worship you Adonis!
DMT
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Valarc
Dec 17, 2008, 1:26 PM
Post #100 of 107
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USnavy wrote: Although most people don’t know it, the "bolts" on a gym wall aren’t usually attached to a big strong steel I-beam or something similar. They are usually only held by the wood that makes up the wall. There is generally a steel plate in the back of the wall that disperses the load of a fall along the wooden panel that makes up that section of the wall.
What piece of shit gym are you climbing in? I've set routes at quite a few gyms, and been behind their walls at one point or another to fix spinners or the like, and I've never once seen a lead bolt installed in the way you claim. Methinks you're full of shit, or climbing at the most ghetto gym in the country.
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