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jaablink
Dec 16, 2008, 7:34 PM
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I train relentlessly. I do not like to fall on trad gear but it happens as the grade gets pushed. I like to believe that the knowledge of, proper use of, and understanding the limitations of my PPE, with constant training will keep me from and my partner getting fucked up in the event of a fall. I am always trying to correct and prefect my form . Making the movements cleaner, more fluid, burning the least amount of energy possible, and placing gear for relative max efficiency and comfort for the grade. I understand that in almost all cases, as long as my legs are outside the line the chance of getting caught on a line and spun is minimal. (I learned that the hard way years ago)
I recently had someone say to me in a Gym, “the line is in the way most of the time on overhangs, so you can’t keep clean of the line“.( I disagree 100% as you can shorten the runners to keep the line closer to the crack if needed or scan ahead, then anticipate good placement or potential problems beforehand, to then plan a couple ways to compensate for such) He then went on to state that he had been climbing for 20 years and that one should also practice taking F/2 falls in a gym to get use to falling and spinning, and then some BS about dynamic belays all the time to soften a fall. I said to him, The dynamic properties of the rope take place of the dynamic belays once used in the past for a more static line, and the only times you should walk in or allow more slack to a falling partner is if there is an obstruction that those actions will help the climber to avoid and make a cleaner fall. He continued to argue with me. The thing that really pissed me off , he was teaching others that BS… For those in the area who know who I am talking about. Please use some common sense, and if you have none…. read. Start with “Freedom of the hills 7th ed.” before I read about you in Accidents & Injuries ….
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majid_sabet
Dec 16, 2008, 8:02 PM
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jaablink wrote: I train relentlessly. I do not like to fall on trad gear but it happens as the grade gets pushed. I like to believe that the knowledge of, proper use of, and understanding the limitations of my PPE, with constant training will keep me from and my partner getting fucked up in the event of a fall. I am always trying to correct and prefect my form . Making the movements cleaner, more fluid, burning the least amount of energy possible, and placing gear for relative max efficiency and comfort for the grade. I understand that in almost all cases, as long as my legs are outside the line the chance of getting caught on a line and spun is minimal. (I learned that the hard way years ago) I recently had someone say to me in a Gym, “the line is in the way most of the time on overhangs, so you can’t keep clean of the line“.( I disagree 100% as you can shorten the runners to keep the line closer to the crack if needed or scan ahead, then anticipate good placement or potential problems beforehand, to then plan a couple ways to compensate for such) He then went on to state that he had been climbing for 20 years and that one should also practice taking F/2 falls in a gym to get use to falling and spinning, and then some BS about dynamic belays all the time to soften a fall. I said to him, The dynamic properties of the rope take place of the dynamic belays once used in the past for a more static line, and the only times you should walk in or allow more slack to a falling partner is if there is an obstruction that those actions will help the climber to avoid and make a cleaner fall. He continued to argue with me. The thing that really pissed me off , he was teaching others that BS… For those in the area who know who I am talking about. Please use some common sense, and if you have none…. read. Start with “Freedom of the hills 7th ed.” before I read about you in Accidents & Injuries ….
invite Angry to your gym so he could kick his as*
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wonderwoman
Dec 16, 2008, 8:06 PM
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Well, I don't know how you would practice factor 2 falls, especially in a gym setting. I am, however, a huge fan of soft catch. Hard catches hurt like hell! The dynamic stretch of a rope can in no way substitute for a nice soft catch.
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pylonhead
Dec 16, 2008, 8:11 PM
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I predict this thread is going to be long and painful to read
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kennoyce
Dec 16, 2008, 8:12 PM
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I have to agree with the guy you were talking to on one point. I think giving dynamic belays is still very important. While a dynamic belay isn't always necessary, you should always give one on overhanging terrain as long as it won't cause the climber to deck or hit a ledge or something like that. On overhanging terrain a fall without a dynamic belay can slingshot the climber into the rock and broken ankles are common in this situation. Dynamic belays are also important if the gear is sketchy because a rope is only so dynamic, and the extra dynamic belay can be the difference between a piece holding or not.
Once again I am not saying that I agree with this dude on any point other than that dynamic belays are still an important part of climbing, and you should know when to use them, and when not to.
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curt
Dec 16, 2008, 8:13 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Well, I don't know how you would practice factor 2 falls, especially in a gym setting. I am, however, a huge fan of soft catch. Hard catches hurt like hell! The dynamic stretch of a rope can in no way substitute for a nice soft catch.
Indeed. For starters, you would need access to a multi-pitch gym climb.
Curt
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jaablink
Dec 16, 2008, 8:14 PM
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The last clipped point is one above midpoint , he goes to the top and drops.
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jaablink
Dec 16, 2008, 8:21 PM
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As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.
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hafilax
Dec 16, 2008, 8:26 PM
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Factor 1 fall. If you have a gym that allows people to do that they are  Miss judge that and you'll be going splat. Maybe a factor 1/2 fall.
A friend badly sprained his ankle from a hard catch. Dynamic belays are important.
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nkane
Dec 16, 2008, 8:28 PM
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jaablink wrote: The last clipped point is one above midpoint , he goes to the top and drops.
That's not a factor 2 fall.
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nkane
Dec 16, 2008, 8:29 PM
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jaablink wrote: As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.
Because of or despite? How could a soft catch make pieces more likely to pull? were you jumping way off to the side?
Or was it a running belay?
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wonderwoman
Dec 16, 2008, 8:31 PM
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jaablink wrote: The last clipped point is one above midpoint , he goes to the top and drops.
That's a practice whipper. That's not a factor 2 fall. A factor 2 fall is when you fall past the belayer on a multi pitch route and the force of the fall goes directly onto the person belaying you.
Here's the page on factor 2 falls from Freedom of the Hills:
http://books.google.com/...;ct=result#PPA158,M1
And a more basic description from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_factor
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marebear
Dec 16, 2008, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: some BS about dynamic belays all the time to soften a fall. I said to him, The dynamic properties of the rope take place of the dynamic belays once used in the past for a more static line, and the only times you should walk in or allow more slack to a falling partner is if there is an obstruction that those actions will help the climber to avoid and make a cleaner fall. He continued to argue with me. The thing that really pissed me off , he was teaching others that BS…
I agree with his "BS" too. I would take a 20 foot fall with a soft catch over a 15 foot fall with a hard catch any day. The only reason to NOT give a dynamic catch is if there is an obstruction that the belayer is keeping the climber away from-- like the ground, or a ledge.
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elcapinyoazz
Dec 16, 2008, 8:37 PM
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I think the only "WTF" here is WTF are you doing spouting off about issues you don't understand.
First: The fall you described is slightly less than factor 1. FF=fall distance/rope out.
Second: Soft catch/dynamic belay on steep terrain can save you from smashing back into the wall at speed and trashing your feet or ankles when you penj, and it's less of a jolt on the body of the falling climber.
Maybe less training and reading for you and more real world climbing experience.
(This post was edited by elcapinyoazz on Dec 16, 2008, 8:38 PM)
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elcapinyoazz
Dec 16, 2008, 8:40 PM
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jaablink wrote: Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.
You're an idiot.
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vegastradguy
Dec 16, 2008, 8:43 PM
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all else aside, i'm shocked the gym owner allows that practice to happen- sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
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vegastradguy
Dec 16, 2008, 8:46 PM
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jaablink wrote: As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.
pieces popping out of the wall have no correlation whatsoever to the type of belay given- dynamic or otherwise.
gear blowing is a consequence of not slinging properly, poor placement, directional placement, rock quality, belayer stance, or some combination of the above.
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wonderwoman
Dec 16, 2008, 8:47 PM
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jaablink wrote: As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay.
Was the belayer standing under the piece? If the first piece was not multidirectional, it could pop and zipper because of an upward pull on the gear.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2008, 8:48 PM
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I have a hard time imagining taking an F2 fall in the gym, but otherwise, I'd prefer a soft catch over a hard one. Hard catches jostle the innards a bit too much for my liking.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2008, 9:03 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: jaablink wrote: As I stated it is relative to the situation. If its not needed it should not be used. Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay. gear blowing is a consequence of not slinging properly, poor placement, directional placement, rock quality, belayer stance, or some combination of the above.
Is that true? I'm asking seriously here because I wonder why anyone would use a Screamer then if softening the fall makes no difference. Is it possible that a belayor can possibly re-enact what a Screamer would do if one wasn't used?
Sorry if that seems n00bish, but I'm curious to know the difference.
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shimanilami
Dec 16, 2008, 9:05 PM
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If trolling, then well done.
If not, then you should seek counseling.
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jaablink
Dec 16, 2008, 9:08 PM
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elcapinyoazz wrote: jaablink wrote: Also I have seen pieces zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay. You're an idiot.
Watch it there , you are talking a lot of shit for someone who has no profile.... I misunderstood the factor 2 fall but now understand. I should have said repetitive near 50/50 falls on gym lines.
And line running through placed gear up can zipper not well set pieces or where the only placements are marginal, mainly chocks.
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blakegt
Dec 16, 2008, 9:10 PM
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One time, one of the employees of the gym I was working at brought in one the via ferrata things that slip, and of course we wanted to make it slip. We set up an anchor using four bolts on the lead wall that were all close to the ground. Then, we clove hitched a piece of rope to a carabiner attached to the anchor.
Of course, we dropped onto the anchor from various places, starting from well below the anchor and moving up. The goal was to eventually to drop from as high up as you could climb above the anchor, which would have been a factor two fall. However, despite the fact the the falls were only 5 or 6 ft no one would take above about a factor 1.5 fall because it started to hurt pretty bad.
In hind sight this was kind of stupid and luckily the management had no idea what was going on, but it illustrates how you could set up a factor two in gym. By the way, we never got the via ferrata thing to slip, and I learned that short high factor falls onto a static anchor hurt pretty bad.
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kennoyce
Dec 16, 2008, 9:26 PM
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i'm really confused as to how you can have a profile like you do, and not know what a factor 2 fall is, and also not understand that a dynamic belay is a good thing, unless it will cause the leader to deck.
Pieces can not zipper and pop because of a dynamic belay, if they zipper, they would zipper with a non-dynamic belay as well.
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