I guess I'm just a little confused... I always hear that 5.12's are crazy hard and you have to train for years to be able to do them. I have yet to lead a 5.12 all the way, but I've gotten really close, and fully expect to get my first 5.12 in the next few weeks. I've been climbing for almost a year exactly, and I skipped top roping and just jumped straight to lead.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm confused by this self defeatist mentality surrounding 5.12's. They are certainly hard climbs, no doubt, but not impossible. My climbing buddy has been climbing for close to 4 years, and hasn't gotten a .12 either. I see a .12, know I can't do it, and try anyway. He says, "Naw, it's too hard, lets try something else."

What gives?

I never meant to come off as a pompous jerk or anything... I just really am baffled as to why people convince themselves they can't do 5.12s.

I am fortunate enough to live within 20 minutes of Little and Big Cottonwood Canyons in Utah and I was climbing there 2 or 3 times a week

I guess I'm just a little confused... I always hear that 5.12's are crazy hard and you have to train for years to be able to do them. I have yet to lead a 5.12 all the way, but I've gotten really close, and fully expect to get my first 5.12 in the next few weeks. I've been climbing for almost a year exactly, and I skipped top roping and just jumped straight to lead.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm confused by this self defeatist mentality surrounding 5.12's. They are certainly hard climbs, no doubt, but not impossible. My climbing buddy has been climbing for close to 4 years, and hasn't gotten a .12 either. I see a .12, know I can't do it, and try anyway. He says, "Naw, it's too hard, lets try something else."

What gives?

Any reasonably fit retard can climb 5.12 sport climbs. Grab the rack and try a few 5.12s in the Gunks--then report back.

Curt

I never meant to come off as a pompous jerk or anything... I just really am baffled as to why people convince themselves they can't do 5.12s.

And for the record, I have worked quite hard to get where I'm at, and I'm not trying to discount the work that others put in as well. I know very well that there are thousands of other climbers who are better than me.

I am fortunate enough to live within 20 minutes of Little and Big Cottonwood Canyons in Utah and I was climbing there 2 or 3 times a week from last March till the snow kept me indoors. Now I climb at the local gym, Momentum (Where they just had the SCS Open National Comp) once or twice a week.

I guess I'm just a little confused... I always hear that 5.12's are crazy hard and you have to train for years to be able to do them. I have yet to lead a 5.12 all the way, but I've gotten really close, and fully expect to get my first 5.12 in the next few weeks. I've been climbing for almost a year exactly, and I skipped top roping and just jumped straight to lead.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm confused by this self defeatist mentality surrounding 5.12's. They are certainly hard climbs, no doubt, but not impossible. My climbing buddy has been climbing for close to 4 years, and hasn't gotten a .12 either. I see a .12, know I can't do it, and try anyway. He says, "Naw, it's too hard, lets try something else."

What gives?

I guess I'm just a little confused... I always hear that 5.12's are crazy hard and you have to train for years to be able to do them. I have yet to lead a 5.12 all the way, but I've gotten really close, and fully expect to get my first 5.12 in the next few weeks. I've been climbing for almost a year exactly, and I skipped top roping and just jumped straight to lead.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm confused by this self defeatist mentality surrounding 5.12's. They are certainly hard climbs, no doubt, but not impossible. My climbing buddy has been climbing for close to 4 years, and hasn't gotten a .12 either. I see a .12, know I can't do it, and try anyway. He says, "Naw, it's too hard, lets try something else."

What gives?

Any reasonably fit retard can climb 5.12 sport climbs. Grab the rack and try a few 5.12s in the Gunks--then report back.

Curt

The key to getting to 5.12 as early as possible is to try as many of them as possible until your find the most ridiculously soft 5.12 so you can actually send it and then spray about climbing 5.12 to anyone who'll ear.

The key to getting to 5.12 as early as possible is to try as many of them as possible until your find the most ridiculously soft 5.12 so you can actually send it and then spray about climbing 5.12 to anyone who'll ear.

Any reasonably fit retard can climb 5.12 sport climbs.

Curt

That's what I did!

DMT

I'm not sure I would agree that they are really 5.12

Curt,

That really Hurts!

Can someone post examples of these 5.12 sport climbs that are "V2 when you're pumped?"

OK, thanks. but based on what you said, I don't think that 12a rating is valid. (I think Angry would agree with me on this.) If the crux is off the ground, there's no pump when you do it. And a 5.9 finish will add nothing to the difficulty of a 12a sport climb.
While bouldering ratings can't totally translate to route ratings, a V3, under the circumstances you describe (off the ground, so no pump) does not have enough kick for a 12a. Maybe your notion of how hard a V3 is is different from mine--I've seen the grades applied inconsistently so in one place a V3 is good for decent noobs, in another (think some J-Tree ratings) you've got to be pretty darn good to make it up.
Standard ratings discussion disclaimer--plz don't tell me to ignore the ratings and just climb for fun--I do just climb for fun, but I'm not climbing now

Thanks, I'll try to check those out when I recover from a finger injury. I've done several Boulder Canyon so-called 5.12a climbs, and I would agree they are about V2 or V3 (with a little pump, as they're pretty short), but I'm not sure I would agree that they are really 5.12 (of and letter grade). Strange cuz I think the BC trad ratings are right on, and a little stiff in some cases.

Any reasonably fit retard can climb 5.12 sport climbs. Grab the rack and try a few 5.12s in the Gunks--then report back.

Curt

The key to getting to 5.12 as early as possible is to try as many of them as possible until your find the most ridiculously soft 5.12 so you can actually send it and then spray about climbing 5.12 to anyone who'll ear.

p.p.s. trad routes ARE harder

OK, thanks. but based on what you said, I don't think that 12a rating is valid. (I think Angry would agree with me on this.) If the crux is off the ground, there's no pump when you do it. And a 5.9 finish will add nothing to the difficulty of a 12a sport climb.

Nah, they're just graded wrong.

Old school ratings were first, therefore, they have to be correct. Besides that's one of the principle factors in defining the term "sport weenies", the soft grades that is.

First therefor correct? Like the theory of a flat earth and a geocentric universe? Good to know.

No, first meaning, new grades (and therefore graders) are soft.

Ah, so long as I don't grade anything then I'm not soft? Got it. Cool.

My understanding of the evolution of the YDS is that 5.9 was originally intended to be the top of the scale. For a while 5.9 meant everything up to the mid 11's. That is part of the reason why 'old school' seems hard. Does that make it correct?

A good scale is a consistent one and as long as it's consistent within a region that's fine by me. You just recalibrate your relative scale when traveling. You climb as hard as you climb. If you have to attach a number to it that's too bad for you.

So yeah... 5.12... It's time to get back to training to get there. Any advice from those that made a winter time gym program to be as strong as possible when getting back on the rock?

Anyway, it was originally a gear route. . . but was retro bolted . . . and now it is a sport route with a really high first bolt right at the crux.

Any reasonably fit retard can climb 5.12 sport climbs.

I guess I'm just a little confused... I always hear that 5.12's are crazy hard and you have to train for years to be able to do them. I have yet to lead a 5.12 all the way, but I've gotten really close, and fully expect to get my first 5.12 in the next few weeks. I've been climbing for almost a year exactly, and I skipped top roping and just jumped straight to lead.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm confused by this self defeatist mentality surrounding 5.12's. They are certainly hard climbs, no doubt, but not impossible. My climbing buddy has been climbing for close to 4 years, and hasn't gotten a .12 either. I see a .12, know I can't do it, and try anyway. He says, "Naw, it's too hard, lets try something else."

What gives?

Nah, they're just graded wrong.

I think it just really depends on how much you want it.... Some people are just happy to top rope 5.9's all day long.. some people want to find there limit. A big factor is how oftern you get injured or take time out from climbing.

If you have to work it, hang-dog it, waste your time on it... did you really, REALLY send it???

I have yet to lead a 5.12 all the way, but I've gotten really close, and fully expect to get my first 5.12 in the next few weeks.

I was climbing {in Little and Big Cottonwood} 2 or 3 times a week from last March till the snow kept me indoors. Now I climb at the local gym, Momentum (Where they just had the SCS Open National Comp) once or twice a week.

Good for you!!! I find climbing is a fun waste of time. How you or I choose to use it is a personal choice. You seem to prefer wasting time by gaining intimate knowledge of a few features and how to get over them, while I prefer variety...

Just because I think a lot of you missed this...

The OP is about to send his first *gym* 12.

Mr. Togden - just so you know, gym grades don't mean shit. I can tell you that from personal experience, as a former gym rat.



Cheers,

GO

I actually waste time both ways. Why limit your options to waste it?

Why do I need to repeat myself? I said, because "How you or I choose to use it is a personal choice."
Just please don't chip holds, retro-bolt or spend the day hogging a classic route. Those are evil deeds.

So? Gym climbing is harder. Just ask Angry.

Yeah, but Angry's full of shit. Just ask Majid.

GO

FTW!

GO

Heh.

I meant both by summoning Jake, and by turning the page.

GO

i think age has to have something to do with any assessment of this. i've only been climbing for a year and can grovel up 5.10s, but figure that's not the end of the world cos i started when i was 30. if i was 16, however, that might be rubbish. hell, i've seen 12 or 13 year olds cruise up harder stuff than i've ever tried and i figure that strength to weight ratio has to have something to do with that.

meh.

steve

For what it is worth:
My judgement, as an out of towner, of SLC gym grades is that they grade boulder problems pretty stiff compared the gyms here on the east coast (almost feel comparable to what little bouldering I've done outside) but the routes at Momentum and Rockreation are soft. I've climbed harder by a number grade at both of those gyms than I have outside. My local gym seems to be just the opposite - soft bouldering and pretty stiff routes. So yes, indoor grades don't mean anything, but some (me included) like having them as goals over the winter. All that being said, I do think both of those gyms are great.

So? Gym climbing is harder. Just ask Angry.

When I was 17, I'd swagger up to a rock and thrash my way up whatever. I'd push myself way out of my element, gambling on having no consequences.

Now, I'm 33, and if I can't do it in a relaxed style, in control, it's just not right. I had to downgrade myself, and relearn some of the easier grades, to learn how to climb them in control, conciously, without constantly gambling on the unknown risks.

I am fortunate enough to live within 20 minutes of Little and Big Cottonwood Canyons in Utah and I was climbing there 2 or 3 times a week

Nah, trad 5.12 existed before sports climbing existed.

JFTPTFTW!!!

Oh, I got it. Hence, "heh". The who recs/disses who on rc.knob thing would be a funny thread. Would anybody remain standing in the end?

/retrobolts LamontagnedeGatineau's project, flashes it, then sprays about it on 8a.nu

First: I never posted anything on 8a.nu: I couldn't care less about the ego trip of the site.
Second: Retro-bolting is like smearing a mustache on the Mona Lisa. It sucks. If you don't have the balls to climb it in the the same style as one how opened it, leave it alone: There are lots of other sport climbs and there are lots of other climbers who may respect it as is.

The gym is sick.

Anyone who hasn't sent Brothers in Arms can't rebut (that's a new rule I just made, it's totally sweet).

Okay, well since I fell all over BIA just seconding it!!! I won't try to rebut your statement that gym climbing is the shit.

Instead, I'll take that as a given, and remind you that I believe we have established that I was once a stronger gym-weenie than you have ever been. So, what do I win? How about an oversized pink fluffy chalk bag? Seems about right.

GO

Not everyone wants to put the effort, mental or physical, into doing it.

Spray spray spray spray.

Some people climb hard right away, some people work their way up slowly. Some people never get there period.

Personally, I don't care which route folks take, but the little pissants who spray about it get on my nerves.

I don't climb 5.12, and I've been loosely in the sport for over 15 years.

I have no interest in just making moves on short 50' routes.

I prefer remote crags, I prefer multi-pitch, and I prefer gear placements to bolts (although I love bolt anchors....)

Does this answer some of your question yet? Grades are subjective. Good for you, you can make dynamic and powerful moves in highly controlled environments.

I'll still bet that you'd shit your pants on some of the backcountry 5.6/5.7's that I've done. It's just less easy to define the skill-set I've had to build to chase my dream.

And yes, I'd like to climb 5.12. But if I can't do it 300'+ up, on gear, in 80 mph wind gusts, with terrible rope drag, in a location where an ankle-break might spell real tragedy, after hiking 60 lbs. of gear in on the bushwhack, it's just a meaningless number.

I can do 5.12 moves in a gym. I climb about 5.7-5.9 "way out there".

And I'm guessing that you're a little younger than I, perhaps not with kiddos, career, house payments.

If that's the case, you're in a good position to invest in the sport and push limits. Good luck.

I don't climb 5.12.

I've done a lot of fluff grade 12s, that I've since downgraded to 11+, though. It works pretty well for me.

if you climb harder routes the routes you want to do are never taken ;-)

except for at the red. where you routinely have to wait in line for .12s.