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dbogardus


Jun 15, 2010, 8:37 AM
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Re: [welle] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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welle wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
patto wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
I may be missing something.

Knots in dynema slings typically reduce their peak strength by almost half. While it most likely wont kill you it is best to be avoided.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Knots will decrease the strength of any sling. A dyneenma sling is rated to around 22 KN, a force I do NOT want to ever feel. In fact, half of that will probably cause your body damage. There is no reason to avoid using material other than 7mm nylon cord for applications such as anchors, which require bends and knots in the rope. People do this all the time, and it is safe. Feel free to back up your reasoning with something, I offer this

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP18/newswire-dyneema-broken-sling-report

Although that really shouldn't be needed.

First of all, my condolences to Karen's family and friends.

Second, knots in nylon slings have been found to slightly increase their strength as demonstrated by DMM: http://www.dmmclimbing.com/video.asp?id=5

Not that this is the thread to go on about the strength of slings, but it seems to me that although the peak force on dyneema and nylon slings are decreased with an overhand knot tied, both types of slings are failing at the lower forces with the knot applied when they are not failing at the higher forces.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 8:50 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Jay, anyone who does not weight their attachment to the anchor before yelling Off and again weight their rappell before unclipping from the anchor is liveing on borrowed time.

I guess I'm living on borrowed time, then. I actually assume that the equipment is good. I visually check that the bolts and the rock they are in are good, and maybe tap on the rock to check if it is solid; and I visually check my connection to the anchor. But, no, I don't consciously test whether my slings, biners, quick draws, harness, rope, etc, and the anchors are going to hold my body weight.

Actually, I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay. Let's say I've just led a sport route, and I have clipped into the 2-bolt anchor using two redundant and independent connections (ie, quick draws). If I were to now test the anchor before going off belay that would imply that I trust my belayer and the single bolt below the anchor more than I trust a redundant connection that I myself made to a two-bolt anchor. To my way of thinking, the latter is more reliable than the former, so it doesn't make sense to use the former to test the latter. The same logic applies when I am ready to lower. I use the anchor to test the belayer; not the other way around.

In reply to:
Possible that you sport climbers get into a few bad habits due to the routine of yo yo ing?

No, I think it's actually a trad thing. When you place gear or build an anchor, you depend on your knowledge of your equipment, your engineering, and your ability to judge visually. You can't and don't test that whether your placements or your anchor will hold a lead fall.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 9:46 AM)


rejames1981


Jun 15, 2010, 9:07 AM
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Re: [newrivermike] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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My deepest condolences to the family. Mike, thank you very much for taking the time to dispell speculation and inform the climbing community.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 9:12 AM
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Re: [wmarkham] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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wmarkham wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it.

No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever.
Hmm. Clearly, there has been a miscommunication. By "test", I just mean, "weight". Are you saying that you are always able to stand at the anchor without weighting either your anchor draws or the rope?

Certainly most sport anchors get tested by way of weighting them. But I have never consciously thought of this as a testing process. For instance, when I can stand at the anchor and thread for lowering without weighting the anchor, I don't purposefully weight it to test it; I check the bolts as best I can, and double check my connection to the anchor before going off belay. Apparently, this revelation has raised a few eyebrows: a few people have commented that they always purposely weight the anchor before going off belay, and one has intoned that I am living on borrowed time.

Jay


moose_droppings


Jun 15, 2010, 9:37 AM
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Re: [mike_devildog] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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If there is a thread somewhere else for condolences, please let me know and I'll repost to that thread. This thread doesn't seem like the appropriate place considering how these tend to roll.

My sincere condolences to all of Karen's friends and family with hopes that they may find peace in these trying times.


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 9:44 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jay, this has nothing to do with trusting the gear unless the gear is obviously suspect. It is a physical test to make sure that you are clipped in properly. If you get in the habit of unclipping from the anchor before you weight your rappell you increase the odds of not catching that boneheadded mistake. Does not matter how good you are, how famous or cool you you think you are, you will still go splat if you make that mistake. Weighting the anchor before you yell OFF and weighting your rappell before you unclip from the anchor takes little effort but gives you a much greater margin of safety.

Same thing goes for lowering. Yell Take and then got me? and Then unclip from the anchor. Very simple stuff. First grade in climbing terms.

Sport climbers spend most of their time on 1/2 pitch routs yo yo which equates to lots of time belaying from the ground and very little time spent at hanging belays. Perhaps that breeds some poor habits born of convience?


Rudmin


Jun 15, 2010, 9:48 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
jt512 wrote:
wmarkham wrote:
I suspect that most climbers, usually, test their anchor system with more than enough weight to break a Petzl STRING (Petzl appears to capitalize the product name) in this configuration, before committing to it.

No, no one tests their connection to a sport anchor, ever.
Hmm. Clearly, there has been a miscommunication. By "test", I just mean, "weight". Are you saying that you are always able to stand at the anchor without weighting either your anchor draws or the rope?

Certainly most sport anchors get tested by way of weighting them. But I have never consciously thought of this as a testing process. For instance, when I can stand at the anchor and thread for lowering without weighting the anchor, I don't purposefully weight it to test it; I check the bolts as best I can, and double check my connection to the anchor before going off belay. Apparently, this revelation has raised a few eyebrows: a few people have commented that they always purposely weight the anchor before going off belay, and one has intoned that I am living on borrowed time.

Jay

The way you wrote it definitely makes it sound like you are not weighting your anchors before trusting them.

The first rule for messing about with anchors that I learned is to always weight your new anchor or tether or rappel before removing the old one. Sometimes I won't if I am on a big ledge or the lengths don't work out. But I am at least very aware of it.


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 9:50 AM
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Re: [mike_devildog] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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This still does not registered in my head that climbers double check their harnesses, belay biner,rope, belay device, knot right off the crag before they put their hands on the first hold but then as soon they airborne, they turn the autopilot and they start climbing with their eyes closed.

why do you assume that anchor are always safe or the bolt is always bomber ?


Did you forget that two climbers fell and died last year in RRG by clipping in to an old webbing at the anchor point?

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...d;page=unread#unread

why not spending 10 second checking things before putting your life on the anchor?


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 29, 2010, 12:37 PM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 9:52 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Jay. If the ledge is super big and comfortable (grand traverse ledge, gunks, etc) No I would not weight the anchor before going Off belay. I certainly would weight the rapell before unclipping from anchor and i would would also weight a lower before unclipping from anchor.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 9:53 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
jay, this has nothing to do with trusting the gear unless the gear is obviously suspect. It is a physical test to make sure that you are clipped in properly.

I don't need a physical test to see if I'm clipped in properly. I can verify that visually.

In reply to:
Weighting the anchor before you yell OFF...gives you a much greater margin of safety.

Actually, I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay. Let's say I've just led a sport route, and I have clipped into the 2-bolt anchor using two redundant and independent connections (ie, quick draws). If I were to now test the anchor before going off belay that would imply that I trust my belayer and the single bolt below the anchor more than I trust a redundant connection that I myself made to a two-bolt anchor. To my way of thinking, the latter is more reliable than the former, so it doesn't make sense to use the former to test the latter. The same logic applies when I am ready to lower. I use the anchor to test the belayer; not the other way around.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 10:02 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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What i am getting at is testing the belayer, the anchor, and your connection to the anchor and the whole system. Eyesight can be decieveing. See the accident that started this discussion.


Partner drector


Jun 15, 2010, 10:05 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
jay, this has nothing to do with trusting the gear unless the gear is obviously suspect. It is a physical test to make sure that you are clipped in properly.

I don't need a physical test to see if I'm clipped in properly. I can verify that visually.

In reply to:
Weighting the anchor before you yell OFF...gives you a much greater margin of safety.

Actually, I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay. Let's say I've just led a sport route, and I have clipped into the 2-bolt anchor using two redundant and independent connections (ie, quick draws). If I were to now test the anchor before going off belay that would imply that I trust my belayer and the single bolt below the anchor more than I trust a redundant connection that I myself made to a two-bolt anchor. To my way of thinking, the latter is more reliable than the former, so it doesn't make sense to use the former to test the latter. The same logic applies when I am ready to lower. I use the anchor to test the belayer; not the other way around.

Jay

Saying "off belay" while still having your weight on the rope is a lie. You cannot be off belay when you are still relying on that belay.

On the other hand, standing on a ledge and being able to untie the climbing rope before even attaching to an anchor is very different. I'm not at all sure which situation is being discussed and if the climber in the accident was actually hanging from the climbing rope when she said "off belay" or if she was off the rope but not weighing her attachment to the anchor.

I for one have never said "off belay" until I was detached from the climbing rope or was at least secure enough that if the belayer went to get coffee and trips and pulls the rope, I was not pulled off the rock.

My condolences to her family and friends. This is a very tragic accident.

Dave


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 10:13 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
What i am getting at is testing the belayer, the anchor, and your connection to the anchor and the whole system.

One of things you are suggesting is to use the belayer and the single bolt below the anchor to test a redundant connection to the anchor itself. The current accident notwithstanding, a redundant connection that I make to a solid two-bolt anchor is going to be more reliable than a belayer catching my fall onto the single bolt below. I don't see much value in using a less reliable system to test a more reliable one—and that is what you are suggesting, whether you realize it or not.

On most sport climbs, one has no choice but to weight the anchor before going off belay anyway, so the issue is largely moot.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 10:16 AM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Again jay, I am testing the entire system not just one part of the system.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 10:24 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Again jay, I am testing the entire system not just one part of the system.

No, you're not, whether you realize it or not.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 10:30 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jay, I trad, Ice, aid and sport climb. I do not change my procedures all that much from style to style.. I keep the same drill and keep it simple but obviously there are going to be some differences due the changing situations.

Regarding sport climbing, chances are very near 100% that the top bolts will be good so the test is purely about makeing sure that your connection to those bolts is correct and that you and your belayer are on the same page. Chances are very good that had Karen weighted her slings before going off belay we would not be haveing this conversation which makes your resistance to this concept somewhat puzzeling?


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:06 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
jay, I trad, Ice, aid and sport climb. I do not change my procedures all that much from style to style.. I keep the same drill and keep it simple but obviously there are going to be some differences due the changing situations.

You are doing things differently depending on the anchor. You are willing to trust a gear anchor that you have built to withstand a factor-2 fall, but not to trust a connection to a 2-bolt sport anchor to hold body weight.

I know how to make a bombproof connection to an anchor, and to inspect it visually. There is no reason for me to test that it will hold my body weight, especially when doing so would imply that I trust the single bolt below me and a second party (my belayer) more than I trust own ability to secure myself to an anchor.

In reply to:
Regarding sport climbing, chances are very near 100% that the top bolts will be good so the test is purely about makeing sure that your connection to those bolts is correct.... Chances are very good that had Karen weighted her slings before going off belay we would not be haveing this conversation which makes your resistance to this concept somewhat puzzeling?

Every fatal accident does not necessitate introducing unnecessary procedures into the system. Todd Skinner would be alive today if he had backed up his belay loop. That does not imply that we all should be backing up our belay loops. It implies that we should inspect our belay loops and retire our harness if the belay loop becomes too worn. Karen would be alive today (possibly) if she tested her connection to the anchor by body weight before going off belay. But that does not imply that we all should do so. It implies that we should use a system of connecting to the anchor that is bombproof and completely transparent to visual inspection.

It can't hurt physically to test the anchor by weighting it, by I really wonder about the mindset of the climber who thinks it necessary to do so. Does such a climber have the confidence (and competence) to build a gear anchor that can't be tested with a factor-2 test fall? And if he or she does, then why would he think it necessary to test whether his connection to a two-bolt anchor would hold his body weight? It's philosophically inconsistent. I will continue to rely on my eyes and my brain to determine that I am properly connected to sport anchors, just as I rely on my eyes and my brain when building and connecting to my own gear anchors.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 11:11 AM)


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Jay i don't think you are understanding what Tradman is saying. He is talking about weighting your personal sling anchor before untying.

in steps...

Take: hang on rope, clip in with sling
Slack: loosen rope so that you are 100% on sling. this is when you are sure that your connection to the bolt is good. Untie, thread, retie.

Take: belayer takes up so that your rope is tight again. and sling is loose. checking that you have threaded correctly and knot is fully tied (remember lynn hill fell a long way due to an unfinished fig 8) Undo sling
Lower off.

what he is saying has nothing to do with the anchor, gear, physical properties of anything involved. It is about the connection between you and the anchor being there at all.

edit: that last post you might see what he is saying. But it does give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when I have tension from the rope and tension from my sling.


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Jun 15, 2010, 11:24 AM)


bigo


Jun 15, 2010, 11:22 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
tradmanclimbs wrote:
What i am getting at is testing the belayer, the anchor, and your connection to the anchor and the whole system.

One of things you are suggesting is to use the belayer and the single bolt below the anchor to test a redundant connection to the anchor itself. The current accident notwithstanding, a redundant connection that I make to a solid two-bolt anchor is going to be more reliable than a belayer catching my fall onto the single bolt below. I don't see much value in using a less reliable system to test a more reliable one—and that is what you are suggesting, whether you realize it or not.

On most sport climbs, one has no choice but to weight the anchor before going off belay anyway, so the issue is largely moot.

Jay

Do you really not see any value from weighting your slings before you un-tie from the rope when cleaning a sport anchor? Do you think it would have helped prevent the accident cited in the OP? What is the downside of weighting slings before going off-belay?


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:24 AM
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Jay. You are over thinking it. I am just keeping it simple and following a routine that I have previously determined will make me safer in the long run.. I do adapt that routine to present circumstances but in general the routine stays fairly stable.

Since you are such a thinker try this out.

If you move a computer file from one drive to annother do you just look at the icon in the new location or do you physicaly open the new file before you delete the old file?


psprings


Jun 15, 2010, 11:28 AM
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A solution: the Metolius Long Draw



With the draw stitched shut the whole length of the sling, you avoid being able to "unclip" the sling.

Simple and effective.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:29 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
Jay i don't think you are understanding what Tradman is saying.

I understand exactly what he's saying.

In reply to:
He is talking about weighting your personal sling anchor before untying.

in steps...

Take: hang on rope, clip in with sling
Slack: loosen rope so that you are 100% on sling. this is when you are sure that your connection to the bolt is good.

No. I know my connection to the anchor is good when I make it and when I visually check it. I don't have to weight it to determine when it is good. Now, sure, if there is no place to stand at the anchor, as is usually the case in sport climbing, then it gets weighted anyway. But when there is a stance, no, I do not "take" at the anchor, clip in, and then weight the anchor to test my connection. I just stand there, clip in, and say "slack." I know my connection to the anchor is good because I can perfectly well see that it is. I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:31 AM
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Jake, thank you, Your gramer is better than mine. One other critical thing that is being tested is makeing shure your belayer is on the same page and ready to lower you. By yelling Take after you have re threaded and BEFORE you unclip you are makeing certain that Jimmy is actually ready to lower you and not chatting up Suzy firm buns and thinking that you wrer going to rap instead of lower.

Again this should be first grade level sport climbing.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:34 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
One other critical thing that is being tested is makeing shure your belayer is on the same page and ready to lower you. By yelling Take after you have re threaded and BEFORE you unclip you are makeing certain that Jimmy is actually ready to lower you and not chatting up Suzy firm buns and thinking that you wrer going to rap instead of lower.

Again this should be first grade level sport climbing.

This is at least the fourth time you have brought this up, even though it has nothing to do with the accident, and everyone agrees with you.

Jay


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:37 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
If you move a computer file from one drive to annother do you just look at the icon in the new location or do you physicaly open the new file before you delete the old file?

I just delete the old file.

Jay

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