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tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:37 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Everone except for you jay. And we all know that You know everythingCool


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:43 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Everone except for you jay. And we all know that You know everythingCool

Can't you even follow your own train of thought? Everybody, including me, agrees with you that you should actually make sure your belayer has you before you unclip. What I disagree with you about is testing your anchor connection with body weight.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 11:44 AM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:45 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Interesting. I often move folders with 4 gigs of photos to external drives. they don't always go through with all the files. A quick click to check how many gigs actually transfered to the new location has saved the day a few times.. I have also crashed and burned a few times in the computer world.

Things are not always what they seem. That sling you just clipped to that big fat bolt may just be connected to your gear loop under your windbreaker instead of to your belay loop. stuff happens. that is why simple tests are good. I know the gear loop wouldn't break in a quick test but it does tug you in a diferent spot than your belay loop and give you a heads up... stuff happens....


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 11:51 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Things are not always what they seem. That sling you just clipped to that big fat bolt may just be connected to your gear loop under your windbreaker instead of to your belay loop.

Not if I look at it and see that it is, in fact, clipped to my belay loop.

In reply to:
stuff happens. that is why simple tests are good.

Yeah, like simple visual inspections.

In reply to:
I know the gear loop wouldn't break in a quick test but it does tug you in a diferent spot than your belay loop and give you a heads up... stuff happens....

Actually if you put your full body weight on your gear loop, it certainly might fail, and on a trad climb (tradmanclimbs) you might lose half your rack. Now had you relied on visual inspection, you'd still have all that gear with you.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 1:00 PM)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2010, 11:55 AM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jay. I do both. look and test. And no I can't always follow my own train of thought....


sp00ki


Jun 15, 2010, 12:43 PM
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Re: [mike_devildog] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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PAS 4 lyfe.


circello


Jun 15, 2010, 1:06 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.


theguy


Jun 15, 2010, 1:09 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
You are thinking of the cause of the slings being misconfigured as a random event...But I suspect that it is a mistake to think of this event as being random. Rather, I suspect ... systematic error.

jt512 wrote:
I actually assume that the equipment is good...I don't see the logic behind testing the anchor before going off belay


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 1:09 PM
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Re: [circello] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 1:15 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point

holy shit.. I AGREE with Majid..

the whole point of this is that Karen had 2 slings that were incorrectly set up and probably looked fine but were actually not.

Visual inspection: pass

Weight test: fail.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 1:28 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point

holy shit.. I AGREE with Majid..

the whole point of this is that Karen had 2 slings that were incorrectly set up and probably looked fine but were actually not.

Visual inspection: pass

Weight test: fail.

Only connect to anchors using equipment that is completely transparent to visual inspection: PASS

Do you weight test your rope to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your harness to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your belay device? your belay loop? your belay carabiner? How do you know any of these things won't fall apart when weighted?

Jay


bigjonnyc


Jun 15, 2010, 1:30 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay, you are either bullheaded or trolling, but you always are this way, and this time I'll bite.

Do you think that the victim of this accident did not visually inspect her setup before going off belay? I personally would bet that she did, and thought it looked ok, and was wrong. That's how accidents happen, and that's why they're called accidents. The weather in the NRG was rainy on Saturday. The victim may have been hurrying because of the inclement weather. Do not make the mistake of thinking you could not find yourself in a similar situation and make a similar misjudgment. You cannot deny that simply weighting the rope before going off belay, an act that would literally take no more than one extra second, could have save a life on Saturday.


majid_sabet


Jun 15, 2010, 1:36 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
circello wrote:
Jay -

Would a simple visual inspection have prevented this accident?

What is the harm in empirically testing your set-up?

Your eyes, no matter how good you claim to be, can fail you. Weighting the system is a simple yes/no query.

excellent point

holy shit.. I AGREE with Majid..

the whole point of this is that Karen had 2 slings that were incorrectly set up and probably looked fine but were actually not.

Visual inspection: pass

Weight test: fail.

Only connect to anchors using equipment that is completely transparent to visual inspection: PASS

Do you weight test your rope to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your harness to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your belay device? your belay loop? your belay carabiner? How do you know any of these things won't fall apart when weighted?

Jay

jay

come on

do not feed non-sense in to this thread. for one, a climber died due to a simple error that was well known in the laws of climbing. visual inspection, physical inspection and weighting the system is a mandatory job and not an option.

I can throw 100s of real cases and flood this thread with accident reports from people who have died due to visual inspection but not doing the real test.


bigjonnyc


Jun 15, 2010, 1:37 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Do you weight test your rope to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your harness to determine if it will hold? How do you know it will?

Do you weight test your belay device? your belay loop? your belay carabiner? How do you know any of these things won't fall apart when weighted?

Jay

The difference here is that you are listing individual pieces of equipment vs. a setup that is made up of multiple pieces of equipment. You are right that most of us do not bother to individually weight each of these pieces. I would guess however, that most of the people on this forum do check their setups, i.e. making sure their knots are tied properly and through both tie in points, making sure their belay 'biner is locked, etc. Do I trust that the slings and 'biners I'm clipping an anchor with will individually stand up to my weight without breaking? Of course I do. Do I visually check my anchor setup and weight it before untying? You'd better fucking believe I do.


jt512


Jun 15, 2010, 1:40 PM
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Re: [bigjonnyc] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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bigjonnyc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want to weight the anchor to test that two quick draws that are right in front of me are properly clipped. There is no reason to. I have eyes.

Jay, you are either bullheaded or trolling, but you always are this way, and this time I'll bite.

Do you think that the victim of this accident did not visually inspect her setup before going off belay?

I've already addressed this, yet two people now have ignored what I had to say about it. I'll say it exactly one more time. The reason that Karen's visual inspection failed is that she used a system that could not easily be visually inspected. SO DON'T DO THAT! Use a connection to the anchor that is completely transparent to visual inspection; that is, one in which any errors will be visually obvious: two ordinary slings, two quick draws, the rope. No gimmicks, no rubber bands, no hockey tape, no PAS, no daisies. Using two slings, you just check four connections. They're either connected to what they are supposed to be or they are not.

If you feel that you have to weight the anchor to determine whether your connection to the anchor is good, then you are relying on your belayer to do your job for you. It's my job to determine when I'm safe at the anchor, and my job alone.

jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 1:51 PM)


Partner climboard


Jun 15, 2010, 1:51 PM
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Re: [jt512] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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Let's not get away from the root cause of this accident- the very real danger with using strings, rubber bands or other objects on open slings. This is not a safe setup.

Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

Jay obviously has a philosophical argument against this. He is an experienced climber and can make the decision for himself.

Everyone has expressed their points on this, if you want to argue it further take it to another thread, let's leave this one for discussion of this accident.


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 2:14 PM
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well, i'm out. I will still always weight my sling before untying and will weight my rope before undoing my sling. I also weight my rappel device before undoing my sling from rap anchors too. It takes zero amount of time and i feel is one step better than just visual inspection.


yokese


Jun 15, 2010, 2:23 PM
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A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 2:32 PM
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yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

how else would you untie your knot while hanging on an anchor?

there is no way of doing this without being off belay in a technical sense. sure they can be holding the rope and giving slack but eventually you have to be tied to the anchor and unweight your knot to thread one end through the anchor.


billl7


Jun 15, 2010, 2:35 PM
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climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

Sure, may have prevented in this instance - yes. But we don't have to search the archives very far back to see that over reliance on weighting the attachment can lead to a fatality (S. Windsor rap accident). Imagine a manufacturer that makes those rubber bands strong enough to hold, say, 50 pounds. We collectively need to dig a little deeper for something more solid than weighting the attachment.

So I'm also behind the 100% visual of a system that is easy to inspect (i.e., very simple). Bump test is just to see if one likes the way it might lay under load (e.g., no awkward twists) and not to confirm there is enough strength in the attachment.

Bill L


Partner camhead


Jun 15, 2010, 2:36 PM
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yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

I never call off belay when cleaning a sport route unless I am going to rappel, in which case I will have discussed it with my belayer beforehand.

Don't use slings, daisies, PAS's or anything like that either for going in direct. Just clip two quickdraws from my belay loop to each of the draws on the anchors (oh no, metal on metal!). No extra gear, no superfluities.

Oh, and in response to whatever logical fallacie jt512 was freaking out about, I personally always weight my gear when I am in direct BEFORE calling for cleaning slack to my belayer. Duh.


Partner camhead


Jun 15, 2010, 2:43 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

how else would you untie your knot while hanging on an anchor?

there is no way of doing this without being off belay in a technical sense. sure they can be holding the rope and giving slack but eventually you have to be tied to the anchor and unweight your knot to thread one end through the anchor.

Fig8 on a bite into a biner. You wouldn't want to whip on it, but you are never technically off belay. Of course, this is all a moot point if you are cleaning a TR and the rope is in nothing below you.


JAB


Jun 15, 2010, 2:45 PM
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My sincerecest condolences to the family of Karen's.

There have been lots of talk about how to do this or that to prevent this kind of accident. But the fact still remains, that the accident was caused by a misuse of the equipment. Petzl explicitly warns, with the death skull symbol, against this particular practise. The lesson should be simple enough: read the instructions, and do not do something that is explicitly warned against.

Here is the link (again): http://www.petzl.com/...%20L%20FR5900L-B.pdf


billl7


Jun 15, 2010, 2:48 PM
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JAB wrote:
The lesson should be simple enough: read the instructions, and do not do something that is explicitly warned against.
I tend to agree although memory is faulty and virtually none of us climb with the instruction manual for all the gear we carry.

Respectfully,
Bill L


jakedatc


Jun 15, 2010, 2:53 PM
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Re: [camhead] Accident Kaymoor NRG [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
yokese wrote:
A very tragic accident, my most sincere condolences to her family and friends.

climboard wrote:
Weighting the attachment before untying may have prevented this accident and most people agree that it is a good practice.

After reading most of the posts in this thread I'm curious to know how many of you actually go off belay to thread the rope through the anchors to be lowered... I never do, unless I'm gonna rappel. I don't even carry a daisy, PAS or extra slings. I do everything with the rope itself and a couple of locking carabiners, and I never get off belay during the set up.

how else would you untie your knot while hanging on an anchor?

there is no way of doing this without being off belay in a technical sense. sure they can be holding the rope and giving slack but eventually you have to be tied to the anchor and unweight your knot to thread one end through the anchor.

Fig8 on a bite into a biner. You wouldn't want to whip on it, but you are never technically off belay. Of course, this is all a moot point if you are cleaning a TR and the rope is in nothing below you.

With only the rope you'd have to pull up enough to attach to yourself and attach to the anchor and thread the anchor. at that point any benefits of using the rope are gone.

i agree about cleaning on TR.. if i do that then i would leave the rope going through one of the draws on the anchor. then thread under it.

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