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olderic
Sep 1, 2004, 7:11 PM
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[quote="jt512
. I use the internet all the time to get help with statistical problems. Why shouldn't this be possible with climbing?
-Jay
Of course it's possible - but I think the typical use patterm is that people post during brief breaks during their regular activities (waiting for builds to complete in my case) and don't put the same effort into it that they would if they were doing something that was going to end up as hardcopy. Do you really focus as much with an e-mail as you would with a handwritten letter?
The other issue is that the posts are so easy to make to a masive audience that you get a lot of 1/2 baked answers. There are many solutions - moderated boards etc. - none of them work very well.
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dingus
Sep 1, 2004, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: 1. Dingus, much respect... 2. That daisy looked dangerous, lesson learned... 3. Why is anyone writing on this apology thread? It should have been over the second Dingus hi 'Enter'
The daisy itself is not new but seems to be OK to me, though it has seen extensive use. Perhaps its time for new ones. Brutus has been pestering me to try the Yates Adjustables, which will negate this issue for me.
entirely.
The apology was in the original thread. I lied to jt, about something jy did for me. That was uncool. Cheers
DMT
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chr1s
Sep 1, 2004, 7:21 PM
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I know what you are saying about the daisy being dangerous when you shorten it - it is amazing how many people are not aware of it.
However, a simple fix to avoid this danger is to tie an overhand knot in the last loop, so your carabiner is clipped to the end. The knot means that the scary, pocket-popping - all is lost scenario can't happen.
I think the daisy is all good as part of a personally anchor system.
Cheers,
Chris.
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asandh
Sep 1, 2004, 7:35 PM
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:)
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squish
Sep 1, 2004, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: Brutus has been pestering me to try the Yates Adjustables, which will negate this issue for me. entirely.
Didn't Pitons Pete bust his leg when one of those ripped on him?
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dingus
Sep 1, 2004, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: If your daisies are girth hitched to your harness and and tthen clipped directly in to pieces you are part of the anchor and have a Lame setup that's not escapable.
Not escapable??? That is simply not true. Sorry. Whether I'm connected to the power point of a cordelette or a cam stuck in the rock, I can escape either. There is essentially no difference.
LOCK THE DAMNED THREAD JAY!!!
(kidding!)
DMT
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asandh
Sep 1, 2004, 7:46 PM
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:)
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dingus
Sep 1, 2004, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: 2. Same scene only you have 2 daisies clipped directly in to 2 or 3 pieces. Your partner falls ....you fill in the rest dingus
So you have to escape two points instead of one. To say it is inescapable is not correct.
Cheers
DMT
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asandh
Sep 1, 2004, 8:00 PM
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:)
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dingus
Sep 1, 2004, 8:13 PM
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What's to WALK THROUGH???
There is NO difference between connecting a daisy to a power point, which is connected in turn to two cams, than two daisies directly to those two cams. I'm sorry, one biner instead of two, and no redundancy between the cams when one daisy is disconnected (i'd use a sling to accomplish that trick and would have anyway, constructing the anchor to begin with). It will lack redundancy at certain points in the operation if I lack extra gear, but the escape sequence is identical.
I wouldn't construct such a anchor anyway. But I routinely use a sling girthed to my harness connected directly to one of the anchors, with the rope itself usually being the other. I don't use cordelettes all that much in free climbing, seeing them as unnecessary weight and bulk.
My rope and sling method is the same net net as using two daisies. You just escape one leg at a time. Now if that little bit of extra time means life or death for my partner... I'll see him again in Hell! Arrrgh!
DMT
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asandh
Sep 1, 2004, 8:35 PM
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:)
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 1, 2004, 8:37 PM
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In reply to: alpnclmbr1 wrote: In reply to: Yes, a daisy can be safely incorporated into an anchor set up. I have been doings so for as long as I have been climbing, and I have never even popped a pocket, let alone breaking one. Question !! Do you understand the concept of NOT making yourself part of the anchor ? If you needed to escape, would removing your daisies from the anchor setup essential destroy the anchor? If your daisies are girth hitched to your harness and and then clipped directly in to pieces you are part of the anchor and have a Lame setup that's not escapable. On the other hand, if you have created a central anchor point with your rope clipped to it, and just use the daisies to short tie in you are ok.
To start with, I only carry one daisy in lieu of a cordelette.
I use the daisy to distribute the load to one piece, more then likely the least bomber piece. I use the rope to connect to the rest.
Cumulatively, I personally know of about 200 years of climbing experience. Several people have had partners die in this group. Not one of these people has ever had to escape a loaded belay. Add another hundred years for people that have related their experiences in that regard on this site. Many people say that you should always use a cordelette for this very reason. Sorry, but that is not a very good reason to use a cordelette.
Accordingly, this is not a primary concern when I am designing a trad anchor.
In my mind the cardinal rule is to always incorporate the rope into the anchor.(of course there are always exceptions)
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billcoe_
Sep 1, 2004, 8:46 PM
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Dingus: I only use a daisy on aid, but I get belayed often by others when I lead. I always use the rope I'm tied into for an anchor unless there is lots of people and a potential clusterfrig and I really need a cordelette (rare), but my partners who are newer climbers often don't-they use the daisy almost religously: your pics were a wake up slap on my face. I'd never thought twice about it.
I'll be having them belay anchored on the rope now too.
Thank you! :oops: :lol:
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billcoe_
Sep 1, 2004, 8:50 PM
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Changed my post to try to minimise the obviousness of my own stupidity.
.........
........
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Probably looks worse now?
B
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crimpandgo
Sep 1, 2004, 9:01 PM
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comment:
Read ALL posts :D
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dingus
Sep 1, 2004, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: dingus wrote: In reply to: I wouldn't construct such a anchor anyway. But I routinely use a sling girthed to my harness connected directly to one of the anchors, with the rope itself usually being the other. I don't use cordelettes all that much in free climbing, seeing them as unnecessary weight and bulk. My rope and sling method is the same net net as using two daisies. yes your method is just like 2 daisies and its WRONG. Not escapable. This concept does not mean escape is "impossible" just very impracticle. You are still part of the anchor with 1 daisy and the rope to 1 piece.
Wrong it is? Hehe. That's a good one. That and 2 bucks buys you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. The anchor is escapable, I have escaped from one, ergo you have no valid point to make other than your escape is easier than mine. Did you stick your tongue out too?
In reply to: There is a good "escapable" method of using just the rope to make a 3 point equalized anchor. I have outlined it in a past thread somewhere. Cordalettes are not neceassary to create a solid equalized, Escapable anchor
Good. Good for you. How many times have you needed to do that?
In reply to: I'm still waiting for you to walk me through your escape steps. If its so easy why can't you figure it out.
Why do you care, you don't use my methods anyway? Instead of magically attaching the lead rope to the power point like you did I magically attach it to a piece instead. Instead of having a cordelette, ie extra piece of gear, I will have a sling or two to replace the elements I remove to affect the escape. The lead rope, depending upon circumstance, might not have to be untied from the anchor at all.
In reply to: Ok instead of your partner being injured, lets say you 2 are swinging leads on a multi pitch route. You lead pitch 3 and set your funky anchor. When your partner gets up he says he's just not in to leading the next pitch and wants you to. How will you switch over ???
Oh, THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED TO ME! NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS ONE!!!111
Maybe I will untie from the rope and hand him my end. Maybe he will girth into the anchor and do the same. Once we are retied maybe we'll fix the anchor knots if necessary. Do it all the time mate. You seem to think I rig my anchors in some rigid fixed configuration. My anchors are a bit more analog, a bit more fluid than you depict. They always involve extra slings for example. Just like with that self-rescue book, some of these pieces have been omitted for clarity.
And if I expect to be leading in blocks I wouldn't do it this way. My anchor method is not rigid and militaristic in approach or application. I prefer to make do with less specialized tools and a greater application of ingenuity.
Happy escapes.
Cheers
DMT
ps. The only time I ever needed to escape a belay was once giving Burl a top rope belay with a hangover and I had to shit something fierce and he was doggin forever man! thought I was gonna DIE! It was a close call but I managed to escape this belay and I quickly and expertly negociated the release of the brown hostages, returned from this crisis scenario, reassumed the belay position and we happily continued to dog our way up a route neither of us should have been on anyway. Man that was a CLOSE CALL!
Double cheers dude. I'm done.
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artm
Sep 1, 2004, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: Thanks, Dingus. No sweat, Man. -Jay
Looks like someone else owes Jay an apology.
Well, now that billcoe_ "Changed his post to try to minimise the obviousness of his own stupidity" (his words not mine).
The rest of our posts make no sense.
So I'm editing mine to say.
I think jt512 owes me an apology for his pathetic attempts to sandbag me at New Jack City (that horrible horrible chosspile nobody wants to climb at) and Williamson.
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actionfigure
Sep 1, 2004, 9:16 PM
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You guys are killing me. first of all, anything is escapable. But why would you want to include yourself in the anchor if you don't have to. If my partner is in need of a rescue, time is something you may not have. Build your anchor with a few pieces, equalize w/ a cordelette into a master point, preferably a large biner like a william, then clove hitch yourself in with the climbing rope into another locker clipped into the master point. Then a 3rd locker goes in the master point as well to act as the belay(munter or gri-gri). NO STUPID DAISY CHAINS ARE NEEDED!
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actionfigure
Sep 1, 2004, 9:21 PM
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P.S. You never have to untie from the rope if you're swinging leads and your partner is up and doesn't want to take charge. If you have decent rope management skills, it's as easy as flipping over your lap coils and you're on top again. Be as streamline as possible. I don't know everything, but I'm comfortable and confident in clove hitching with the climbing rope into the anchor. It's fast and clean and very easy to take out when it's time to climb. Also it can be adjusted without unlocking the biner. Girth hitching slings should only be necessary on rappel.
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dirtineye
Sep 1, 2004, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: P.S. You never have to untie from the rope if you're swinging leads and your partner is up and doesn't want to take charge. If you have decent rope management skills, it's as easy as flipping over your lap coils and you're on top again. Be as streamline as possible. I don't know everything, but I'm comfortable and confident in clove hitching with the climbing rope into the anchor. It's fast and clean and very easy to take out when it's time to climb. Also it can be adjusted without unlocking the biner. Girth hitching slings should only be necessary on rappel.
Amen to pile flipping, down with untie/retie!
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asandh
Sep 1, 2004, 9:46 PM
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:)
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asandh
Sep 1, 2004, 9:54 PM
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:)
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actionfigure
Sep 1, 2004, 9:58 PM
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I agree with most of what you said but no cordelette dude? What's up with that?
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billcoe_
Sep 1, 2004, 10:12 PM
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A cordelette isn't needed or wanted. Thats wuz up with that sir.
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girlclimb
Sep 1, 2004, 10:26 PM
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These explinations make alot of sense the pictures really drilled it home. i have never used a daisy on a multi pitch but it has not been uncommon to use one at the base of a cliff to tie myself to a tree since my partners normally out weight me by 70 lbs... however i will probably now adjust my techniques,
i also appologize for the monitor who had moved my question to a new thread and took 14 min, i just never had given the question much thought untill i read the last thread.
~K
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