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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: There is absolutely nothing wrong with A0 but I wouldn't call it a trad ascent. It's aiding.
God this bugs me. Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch, TILL I GRAB HIM BY THE THOAT AND THROTTLE....@#$%^^&&*!!!111
Aid is TRAD as hell!
If John Salathe wasn't a trad climber then traditional climbing simply did not exist, ever, which is a ludicrous notion. And that dude aided a LOT! Like 50 years ago? As in, how they traditionally did it? See, Salathe climbed the Lost Arrow spire from the base, rather than tossing a line over the summit like the FA party did. They were top down, sport climbers, perhaps some of the first. Salathe, on the other hand, was an ass man, bottoms UP!
Trad is ground up climbing, period. And you have to LEAD to be trad. If you 2nd everything you ARE NOT a ground up climber, sorry.
Trad = ground up.
Pulling on gear = aid.
Not weighting gear to climb = FREE CLIMBING!!!
Sheesh!
DMT
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 10, 2004, 6:06 PM
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Alpine: aid can be your "winged sandals" in time of need.
Trad: is an attitude of "I do not want to cheat." Failing, flailing, hanging, aiding. All are anathema to the trad. Climbing ground up is the minimum requirement.
Aid climbing on a free route in rain and snow is an exception that exemplifies the Trad ideal. Otherwise, a point of aid is aid climbing. Nothing wrong with aid climbing, but it is what it is.
Re: weighting the rope.
No matter how good you are at using runners, if you hang, at least one piece is going to pulled out of line. Pretty much every time.
Another advantage of clipping in is that it lets you place and clip a higher piece.
If you are going to hang, you should hang. At that point the extra energy to clip in is meaningless and likely encourages you to rest longer as you should.
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 6:12 PM
Post #28 of 217
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In reply to: In reply to: There is absolutely nothing wrong with A0 but I wouldn't call it a trad ascent. It's aiding. God this bugs me. Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch, TILL I GRAB HIM BY THE THOAT AND THROTTLE....@#$%^^&&*!!!111 Aid is TRAD as hell! If John Salathe wasn't a trad climber then traditional climbing simply did not exist, ever, which is a ludicrous notion. And that dude aided a LOT! Like 50 years ago? As in, how they traditionally did it? See, Salathe climbed the Lost Arrow spire from the base, rather than tossing a line over the summit like the FA party did. They were top down, sport climbers, perhaps some of the first. Salathe, on the other hand, was an ass man, bottoms UP! Trad is ground up climbing, period. And you have to LEAD to be trad. If you 2nd everything you ARE NOT a ground up climber, sorry. Trad = ground up. Pulling on gear = aid. Not weighting gear to climb = FREE CLIMBING!!! Sheesh! DMT
true dingus, i actually meant free, although I do interchangably use the the two terms in my own climbing lexicon. i generally consider trad climbing free climbing while placing your own gear, and any pulling or weighting of gear or the rope as aid climbing.
A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases. For instance a traverse route (especially if it was poorly protected by the leader which has happened to me twice) is a no fall route. I've been on routes that were so poorly protected on traverse that I actually was more at risk than the leader. Certainly the rope offered no advantage to me but it did to the leader. I'd say my ascent was most definitely free in those cases. The rope I was tied into was more a guide to the gear I needed to clean than for protection.
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curt
Sep 10, 2004, 6:16 PM
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Well, we are way off topic now anyway--so what the hell. alpnclmbr1 has a much better definition of "trad" here than Dingus does, IMO.
Curt
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keinangst
Sep 10, 2004, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: On those few occasions when you do rest on trad gear while on lead...
Once, I got to a ledge and leaned back to rest, taking a #9 Hexentric right in the keister.
I named him Butch and marked him with pink nail polish for future reference.
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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: Otherwise, a point of aid is aid climbing. Nothing wrong with aid climbing, but it is what it is.
Sorry, you cannot make the case that aid climbing is not traditional climbing.
DMT
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 6:24 PM
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curt: the thing is, no one is right, alpineclmbr definition is just the one you agree with more. you can't really pigeon hole climbing into these clear cut definitions we are all trying to create. It just doesn't work in a sport that is so diverse and continually evolving. It works even less when the rules of the sport are pretty much up to each individuals own style and ethics. in the end people are going to do what they want and call it what they want.
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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 6:26 PM
Post #33 of 217
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In reply to: A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases.
I recokon the 2nd can climb free in ALL situations if they are good enough!
Free vs. aid has nothing to do with the definition of trad.
When I say I free climbed something that CERTAINLY DOESN'T imply I tradded it. I could have sport climbed it. I could have bouldered it.
When I go tradding, I can aid or free climb, or both. I'm still tradding.
See, one of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong!
Cheers (I'll try to let it go after this...)
DMT
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debaser655321
Sep 10, 2004, 6:27 PM
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clip the piece for sure. this should be the standard. if you think for one second it's cool to have your belayer hold your week butt up on the route while you screw around, you better start learning how to solo. this goes for sport as well.
If you plan on RESTING (and can't find a natural rest) clip in to Shake out
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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 6:29 PM
Post #35 of 217
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In reply to: Well, we are way off topic now anyway--so what the hell. alpnclmbr1 has a much better definition of "trad" here than Dingus does, IMO. Curt
Except that alpnclmr1 is wrong. Aid is trad. Free climbing is not the sole perview of trad climbers. They were aiding 100 years ago. If climbing done 100 years ago fails to past the traditional sniff test, then there is no traditional climbing at all.
Ground UP, baby. End of story.
DMT
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curt
Sep 10, 2004, 6:31 PM
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In reply to: curt: the thing is, no one is right, alpineclmbr definition is just the one you agree with more. you can't really pigeon hole climbing into these clear cut definitions we are all trying to create. It just doesn't work in a sport that is so diverse and continually evolving. It works even less when the rules of the sport are pretty much up to each individuals own style and ethics. in the end people are going to do what they want and call it what they want.
Do you suppose that is why my post ended with "IMO" (in my opinion)?
Curt
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curt
Sep 10, 2004, 6:33 PM
Post #37 of 217
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In reply to: Ground UP, baby. End of story. DMT
I agree with you about the aid climbing part, but the above definition doesn't work either.
Curt
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 6:48 PM
Post #38 of 217
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In reply to: In reply to: curt: the thing is, no one is right, alpineclmbr definition is just the one you agree with more. you can't really pigeon hole climbing into these clear cut definitions we are all trying to create. It just doesn't work in a sport that is so diverse and continually evolving. It works even less when the rules of the sport are pretty much up to each individuals own style and ethics. in the end people are going to do what they want and call it what they want. Do you suppose that is why my post ended with "IMO" (in my opinion)? Curt
I suppose that could be the case :idea:
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euroford
Sep 10, 2004, 9:29 PM
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well this kinda spiraled off into no mans land... but hey, thats what we do here at rc.com
in sumation, don't pull on gear - unless your looking at an iminant leg breakage event. :D
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 10, 2004, 10:20 PM
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If aid climbing (pulling/hanging) on gear) is trad, then hangdogging would be trad. It isn't.
"Trad" climbing is a word that attempts to describe an activity.
I might concede that aid climbing on an aid route could be considered traditional climbing, or an aid/free mixed FA.
However, aid climbing established free climbs would not even come close to fitting my idea of Trad climbing. It would either be survival climbing or sport climbing. Both games that emphasize doing whatever it takes as opposed to trad climbing's stylistic ideals.
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dirtineye
Sep 10, 2004, 10:37 PM
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Oh boy, a stupid argument!
Hanging/resting on a piece is still a trad (ALMOST free) ascent, It's just not 'clean', or 'onsight', or whatever word you want to use for when you don't use the gear for resting, falling, or pullin' on (french free), or outright aid climbing ( a two or three foot sling makes a passable one step emergency etrie for those "By any means necessary", moments).
Sometimes you just gotta get up it. If it's hard enough that you need to aid a little, then you ain't gonna onsight it anyway, so get on up, get your stuff, and come back later for a clean ascent if you feel the urge.
Maybe you need to do some route finding. Maybe your belayer has to pee hahahaha.
Someone already said, once you hit trad 11 and up, (and especially on FA) the game is a litle different. BUT, even if it is a trade route 5.7, if YOU need to aid or hang or whatever to prevent an injury situation of for any other reason, SO WHAT? the rock will still be there for next time.
Of course if you can get an onsight then great! IF you fall and climb back up and finish, that's great too!
What's so hard about this concept?
Oh yeah, Clip to the piece, hell clip to two pieces, hang out, take pictures, have fun. Or not. It depends on the situation.
I gotta ask dingus, does this count as a mini-rant?
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hangerlessbolt
Sep 11, 2004, 4:24 AM
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T'was climbing out at Beacon this week...it was my pitch...I geared up...rigged an adjustable aider to step up and over my belayer to get on route (tight belay spot)...got on route...made a few moves, then it occurred to me:
a) This thing is an off-width
b) I hate off-widths
c) I left my 3.5 and 4 at home
d) If I fall in the midst of this thing, I'll hit my belayer
e) I don't have insurance
f) I have a second job interview on Wednesday
g) But it's only 5.9
h) This cam was about $65
I clipped into the piece , talked it over with my partner...he opted to give it a go.
He made the moves...and at 6'7" was able to reach some distant gear that I didn't see.
He aids P3...I jug
It's my lead again...another 5.9/10a/10b dihedral/stem/lieback/clusterf%#@
I get two pieces into it..."f*#$!" I yell
"What's up" my parter asks
"I'm wiped out"..."f*#$!!!"
"You want me to give it a go?"
"Yeah, f*#$ this sh*t!"
"Your language is improving"
"f*#$ you and lower me"
He gives it a burn and hangs...place...hangs...places...hangs...places...yells, "FALLING!!!"...hangs...gets to the tops
my turn
grabs the draw...haul...grabs the next draw...cleans the first...replaces the first higher up...clips...removes the second...etc, etc, etc
I take the 5th and final pitch up through grassy ledges and overgrown bushes...with one shiny bolt in the middle of all this...
"A$$holes", I murmer
I top out...belay my partner...we trek down...
worst day of my climbing life
Oh well, it can't all be onsight flashes
;-)
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cgailey
Sep 11, 2004, 5:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases. I recokon the 2nd can climb free in ALL situations if they are good enough! Free vs. aid has nothing to do with the definition of trad. When I say I free climbed something that CERTAINLY DOESN'T imply I tradded it. I could have sport climbed it. I could have bouldered it. When I go tradding, I can aid or free climb, or both. I'm still tradding. See, one of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong! Cheers (I'll try to let it go after this...) DMT
So what you're saying is that all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats? :lol:
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dirtineye
Sep 12, 2004, 5:21 AM
Post #45 of 217
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases. I recokon the 2nd can climb free in ALL situations if they are good enough! Free vs. aid has nothing to do with the definition of trad. When I say I free climbed something that CERTAINLY DOESN'T imply I tradded it. I could have sport climbed it. I could have bouldered it. When I go tradding, I can aid or free climb, or both. I'm still tradding. See, one of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong! Cheers (I'll try to let it go after this...) DMT So what you're saying is that all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats? :lol:
NO, Dingus is quoting Sesamie Street.
And let me see, the second on a trad climb, if he is cleaning gear, how is he not trad climbing?
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pico23
Sep 13, 2004, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases. I recokon the 2nd can climb free in ALL situations if they are good enough! Free vs. aid has nothing to do with the definition of trad. When I say I free climbed something that CERTAINLY DOESN'T imply I tradded it. I could have sport climbed it. I could have bouldered it. When I go tradding, I can aid or free climb, or both. I'm still tradding. See, one of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong! Cheers (I'll try to let it go after this...) DMT So what you're saying is that all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats? :lol: NO, Dingus is quoting Sesamie Street. And let me see, the second on a trad climb, if he is cleaning gear, how is he not trad climbing?
IMO, the rope to a second (a top rope) is generally considered aid. With the exception of a poorly protected route by the leader on say a limited vertical gain traverse. in such a case the second is now free soloing and more commited than the leader was. Moral of the story is protect your second if you think you have the stones to lead.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 13, 2004, 1:44 AM
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the only time that I really feel like i am honest to goodness tradclimbing is when i have killer hangover and a sketchy hook too far over the last decent gear for comfort, shakeing like a dog crapping razorblades and hand drilling a bolt on an FA with my trusty Chiounard hammer :twisted: Any one who is too stressed out to take an ocasional hang needs to relax. i know a guy that is really strong but he gets in the middle of the crux and being kind of chicken he goes back and forth for about an hour before he gets the nerve to do the move. You are in a deep coma belaying by the time he finaly does the move. He would definatly be better off takeing a hang and then fireing the move. i could personaly care less that he freed the move without grabbing gear because I am freezing my arse off, my kidnys are bruised from hanging in the belay, I am bored stiff and generaly pissed off. If he was freeing an FA of some prestigous climb that might be ok but just getting up a trade rt it drives me nuts :roll:
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curt
Sep 13, 2004, 1:53 AM
Post #48 of 217
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases. I recokon the 2nd can climb free in ALL situations if they are good enough! Free vs. aid has nothing to do with the definition of trad. When I say I free climbed something that CERTAINLY DOESN'T imply I tradded it. I could have sport climbed it. I could have bouldered it. When I go tradding, I can aid or free climb, or both. I'm still tradding. See, one of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong! Cheers (I'll try to let it go after this...) DMT So what you're saying is that all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats? :lol: NO, Dingus is quoting Sesamie Street. And let me see, the second on a trad climb, if he is cleaning gear, how is he not trad climbing? With the exception of a poorly protected route by the leader on say a limited vertical gain traverse. in such a case the second is now free soloing and more commited than the leader was. Moral of the story is protect your second if you think you have the stones to lead.
Please post here again correcting yourself--so I don't have to come back and correct you, in an unkind way. Most people don't get a second chance--don't throw it away. :wink:
Curt
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happiegrrrl
Sep 13, 2004, 2:25 AM
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Yeah - what Curt said....
I have been enjoying this thread simply because it is actually the first time I've seen this topic discussed on rc (With so many "reruns," it can get sort of boring at times.)
And I've got my opinion about resting on gear, but I'm too inexperienced for it to count, so I'll not comment. But how do you say a belay from the top for a second is aid climbing? The rope is there for protection, just like that gear you're not supposed to be pulling (oops...what can I say; just can't seem to keep my mouth shut), and not to hold your butt in place or haul it up the face. If a person does not weight the rope, why are you of the opinion this is aid climbing?
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happiegrrrl
Sep 13, 2004, 2:26 AM
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Edited to cut out this post - a glitch in the system double posted the above (no really - it wasn't me....)
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